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Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions


Some may call it serendipity, others divine intervention. Either way, circumstances prevented two families from boarding doomed AirAsia Flight QZ8501.

In one case, it was missed emails. In another, an illness in the family. As a result, 15 people -- seven of them children -- are alive and well.
 
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Agreed, plus the newer AIP systems allow submerged times longer than a week..........6 Submarines with AIP and proper weapons along with 3 Agosta90s will give the navy 9 boats....which is sufficient for coastal and beyond coastal/EEZ duties.

Agree with you 100%. You are also right about new AIP systems.

The magazine 'Warships " of January 2015 has a write up on Greek submarines. The new 1,727 ton German type 214 submarine joined Greek Navy on Dec 21, 2010. It has very low acoustic signature, 8 x 533 torpedo tubes; able to track 25 targets and can engage 6 different targets simultaneously. It can stay submerged for 2 weeks without snorkeling, has a crew of 27 and fuel reserve for 12 -week mission. At surface speed of 6 knots, it has a range of 12,000 n-miles.

Do we really need nuclear submarine if we have about half a dozen hunter-killers of such capability?
 
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Agree with you 100%. You are also right about new AIP systems.

The magazine 'Warships " of January 2015 has a write up on Greek submarines. The new 1,727 ton German type 214 submarine joined Greek Navy on Dec 21, 2010. It has very low acoustic signature, 8 x 533 torpedo tubes; able to track 25 targets and can engage 6 different targets simultaneously. It can stay submerged for 2 weeks without snorkeling, has a crew of 27 and fuel reserve for 12 -week mission. At surface speed of 6 knots, it has a range of 12,000 n-miles.

Do we really need nuclear submarine if we have about half a dozen hunter-killers of such capability?
No nuclear missiles?
 
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Agree with you 100%. You are also right about new AIP systems.

The magazine 'Warships " of January 2015 has a write up on Greek submarines. The new 1,727 ton German type 214 submarine joined Greek Navy on Dec 21, 2010. It has very low acoustic signature, 8 x 533 torpedo tubes; able to track 25 targets and can engage 6 different targets simultaneously. It can stay submerged for 2 weeks without snorkeling, has a crew of 27 and fuel reserve for 12 -week mission. At surface speed of 6 knots, it has a range of 12,000 n-miles.

Do we really need nuclear submarine if we have about half a dozen hunter-killers of such capability?

Yup, the type 214 is the among the most lethal Submarines in the SSK class. But then again they were very costly and Pakistan most probably wants a custom tailored unit which can accommodate the Navy's ambition of having SLCM and Nuclear weapons. Germans will not allow that.
 
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If Pakistan can build/acquire a Conventional Submarine (more quieter than nuclear; due to all the water pumps cooling the reactor) with a advanced AIP system, that can let it stay continously submerged for at least 6 weeks, and do transit speeds of at least 20 knots sustained and have space for 3 SLBM sized VLS tubes would be probably a far better investment (as it would be quieter, and just the amount of muscle, within the cost parameters pakistan can hope to get up to/budget for in the future if the economy develops enough)

3 SSBK variants, and 3-4 SSK variants like this and thats a potent force to sustain deterence at sea, and quiet attack capability against the IN and others that may threaten to cut the sea lines of communication of pakistan
 
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It appears that many of my fellow members consider SSN a panacea for all naval problems. Let us briefly discuss main points.

Firstly the cost: Royal Navy’s new Vanguard class submarine costs a whopping £1.5-billion in 1993 value. This translates into more $3-billion each. Type 214 on the other cost $330-milllion per unit in 2008 dollars. This means one could buy about 6 type 214 for the price of a single SSN. Cost for decommissioning SSN could be as much again; I will come to that later.

Speed: Vanguard class can speed up to about 30- knots; However at that speed noise from the sub’s propellers is so much that it becomes difficult to hear the SONAR. Thus normal submerged speed is about 20 knots. Modern SSK such as type 214 can achieve 20 knots for fast get away; even higher speeds are possible for short sprints of up to 30 minutes.

Range: Submarine is the ultimate stealth weapon. Therefore range is far more important as it gives the ability to ambush the enemy deep in the blue water. While SSK can’t compete with SSN; range of 12,000 nm on surface and in excess of 1,000 nm submerged, is more than sufficient for most countries defence needs.

In addition to the fuel, one of the key factors that determine the range is the provision of food & water for the crew. While water can be obtained thru distillation of sea water (SSN), longer the range, more space is needed for the provisions. Very long stay at sea also gives rise to psychological problems. SSN has limitless power supply, however due to shortage of space for food, most SSN stay at the sea for about 6 months. Modern SSK can be at sea for about 3 months only.

Stealth: SSK is also considerably smaller (about 2,000 tons for SSK versus 15,000 tons for SSN) therefore better at hiding under the sea. State of the art SSK is also stealthier than the SSN. There are two reasons for it.

In SSK one can switch off the engine and remain in absolute silence. SSN however cannot shut down nuclear reactors and some noise from pumps will always remain. Another stealth weakness of the SSSN is the need to cool the reactor even when the submarine is not moving.

About 70% of the reactor output heat is dissipated into the sea water; this leaves a "thermal wake" that is, a plume of warm water of lower density which ascends to the sea surface and creates a "thermal scar" that is observable by thermal imaging systems such as Forward Looking Infra-red cameras (FLIR). In this aspect SSN is definitely inferior to the state of art SSK.

For me, the major drawback of SSN only surfaces upon decommissioning. Sooner or later all equipment has to be retired from service. How to dispose-off the waste from the nuclear reactors that power the SSN? It is estimated that nuclear waste from the defence sources could be about 1/6 of all the nuclear waste in Britain.

Decommissioning of the UK Trident submarines left the long term problem of what to do with the reactor itself and the surrounding hull, unresolved. It is possible to substantially reduce the level of radiation in components of the reactor. This can be done by chemical processes. However, the chemical process in turn also produces nuclear waste. At the end there would still be a large volume of low level waste and a smaller volume of intermediate waste which will remain radioactive for generations.

UK ministry of Defence (MoD) would like to fill the submarines with concrete and sink them in the Atlantic but future monitoring would be difficult, recovery virtually impossible and there would be serious international objections. Shallow burial on land is another option, a number of American submarines have been dumped this way. Nevertheless, there is no easy answer to the question of what to do with a decommissioned SSN. When the Royal Navy first introduced nuclear powered submarines they did not even consider this issue. Almost 30 years later, MOD have still not been able to find a solution.

Russians have their nuclear waste disposal site in at Bolshoi Kamen, opposite to the city of Vladivostok on the Siberian East coast. Main activity of Sveda factory at Bolshoi Kamen is cleansing reactors of nuclear submarines after the same have been de-activated. However it is very dangerous work and the gravestones show that most people die young; in their 30’s & forties.

Apart from other arguments posted earlier; in my opinion proliferation of SSN in the navies of less ecologically aware countries is bad for the environment. Perhaps now one can see why I am strongly opposed to SSN’s.
 
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Some may call it serendipity, others divine intervention. Either way, circumstances prevented two families from boarding doomed AirAsia Flight QZ8501.

In one case, it was missed emails. In another, an illness in the family. As a result, 15 people -- seven of them children -- are alive and well.
 
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i doubt Pakistan Navy is getting any subs anytime soon. in 2006 we were discussing the possible purchase of German U boats.

9 years later we still have not even put in an order for any subs. We are a decade late with no good news coming anytime soon.
 
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We can get nuclear submarine only from China but if we are soon going to buy 6 AIP submarines from China and we have 3 Augusta 90 than 9 submarines are enough but may be we may go for one to make it 10 total
 
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So any idea how the construction of our nuclear submarine is coming along some one mentioned its reactor had come online. ?
 
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So any idea how the construction of our nuclear submarine is coming along some one mentioned its reactor had come online. ?

If Pakistan needs a SSN in the future, possibly to add an element of a wild card platform, with speed and range, armed with 700-1000km range babur missiles off of india's coast or as a spy sub, it could lease a single type 93 chinese SSN (if allowed to by the chinese government)

for these specialized long range ops, if pakistan has just one sub (which is operationally available in time of crisis) then it would be enough (also a good chance for china to practice sub operations in the indian ocean against indian p-8 mpa aircraft, if they send oofficer students to serve on a PN SSN)

the majority of the sub force, should be the cost effective SSK (diesel electric boats) it makes more sense for pakistan, especially considering the cost and missions
 
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If Pakistan needs a SSN in the future, possibly to add an element of a wild card platform, with speed and range, armed with 700-1000km range babur missiles off of india's coast or as a spy sub, it could lease a single type 93 chinese SSN (if allowed to by the chinese government)

for these specialized long range ops, if pakistan has just one sub (which is operationally available in time of crisis) then it would be enough (also a good chance for china to practice sub operations in the indian ocean against indian p-8 mpa aircraft, if they send oofficer students to serve on a PN SSN)

the majority of the sub force, should be the cost effective SSK (diesel electric boats) it makes more sense for pakistan, especially considering the cost and missions
You can not use your missiles on a leased Sub, it is strictly for training, So Pakistan needs its own N submarine.
 
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It appears that many of my fellow members consider SSN a panacea for all naval problems. Let us briefly discuss main points.

Firstly the cost: Royal Navy’s new Vanguard class submarine costs a whopping £1.5-billion in 1993 value. This translates into more $3-billion each. Type 214 on the other cost $330-milllion per unit in 2008 dollars. This means one could buy about 6 type 214 for the price of a single SSN. Cost for decommissioning SSN could be as much again; I will come to that later.

Speed: Vanguard class can speed up to about 30- knots; However at that speed noise from the sub’s propellers is so much that it becomes difficult to hear the SONAR. Thus normal submerged speed is about 20 knots. Modern SSK such as type 214 can achieve 20 knots for fast get away; even higher speeds are possible for short sprints of up to 30 minutes.

Range: Submarine is the ultimate stealth weapon. Therefore range is far more important as it gives the ability to ambush the enemy deep in the blue water. While SSK can’t compete with SSN; range of 12,000 nm on surface and in excess of 1,000 nm submerged, is more than sufficient for most countries defence needs.

In addition to the fuel, one of the key factors that determine the range is the provision of food & water for the crew. While water can be obtained thru distillation of sea water (SSN), longer the range, more space is needed for the provisions. Very long stay at sea also gives rise to psychological problems. SSN has limitless power supply, however due to shortage of space for food, most SSN stay at the sea for about 6 months. Modern SSK can be at sea for about 3 months only.

Stealth: SSK is also considerably smaller (about 2,000 tons for SSK versus 15,000 tons for SSN) therefore better at hiding under the sea. State of the art SSK is also stealthier than the SSN. There are two reasons for it.

In SSK one can switch off the engine and remain in absolute silence. SSN however cannot shut down nuclear reactors and some noise from pumps will always remain. Another stealth weakness of the SSSN is the need to cool the reactor even when the submarine is not moving.

About 70% of the reactor output heat is dissipated into the sea water; this leaves a "thermal wake" that is, a plume of warm water of lower density which ascends to the sea surface and creates a "thermal scar" that is observable by thermal imaging systems such as Forward Looking Infra-red cameras (FLIR). In this aspect SSN is definitely inferior to the state of art SSK.

For me, the major drawback of SSN only surfaces upon decommissioning. Sooner or later all equipment has to be retired from service. How to dispose-off the waste from the nuclear reactors that power the SSN? It is estimated that nuclear waste from the defence sources could be about 1/6 of all the nuclear waste in Britain.

Decommissioning of the UK Trident submarines left the long term problem of what to do with the reactor itself and the surrounding hull, unresolved. It is possible to substantially reduce the level of radiation in components of the reactor. This can be done by chemical processes. However, the chemical process in turn also produces nuclear waste. At the end there would still be a large volume of low level waste and a smaller volume of intermediate waste which will remain radioactive for generations.

UK ministry of Defence (MoD) would like to fill the submarines with concrete and sink them in the Atlantic but future monitoring would be difficult, recovery virtually impossible and there would be serious international objections. Shallow burial on land is another option, a number of American submarines have been dumped this way. Nevertheless, there is no easy answer to the question of what to do with a decommissioned SSN. When the Royal Navy first introduced nuclear powered submarines they did not even consider this issue. Almost 30 years later, MOD have still not been able to find a solution.

Russians have their nuclear waste disposal site in at Bolshoi Kamen, opposite to the city of Vladivostok on the Siberian East coast. Main activity of Sveda factory at Bolshoi Kamen is cleansing reactors of nuclear submarines after the same have been de-activated. However it is very dangerous work and the gravestones show that most people die young; in their 30’s & forties.

Apart from other arguments posted earlier; in my opinion proliferation of SSN in the navies of less ecologically aware countries is bad for the environment. Perhaps now one can see why I am strongly opposed to SSN’s.
Yet, they are still building more SSNs!?

Hi,
But isnt India using Akula class sub
Only for training, no missiles on board...
 
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