Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

[SQ8]

At the same time, I do trust the silent service to come through and do their job well. Keeping my fingers crossed. =)

A lot happens and my ten days in country and catching up have been happy updates. We are fully indigenous in sims now and moving to AR based simulation for platforms left and right.
The issue lies in selecting the right private sector engineering firms and coordinating it with the state R&D firms.

 

[Zarvan]

The designed tonnage of Jinnah Class FFG is 3000 Tons.(it cannot be increased now)
It will not be increased in the present platform which are going to be built in KSEW.
The weapon & sensors systems are not yet decided.
A 16 cell VLS is being installed. The magazine size can be increased.


We will have 4+4+4+4+2 (FFGs & OPVs) by 2035.
Probably after this class, PN may attempt a 5000 tons class vessel.

Then I hope it's cancelled and we stick to Type 54. Also it's a heavy Corvette not a Frigate.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Exactly! The surface fleet is generally focused on supporting SLOC operations and a lot more in peacetime in terms of freedom of navigation and diplomacy.
There was another wave many years of proponents of ditching the heavy vessels and sticking to FACs or corvettes.

In a way, I don't think the mentality (to focus on corvettes or FACs) changed, it was just adjusted.

Basically, the PN understood that strictly sticking to a sub-2,000-ton vessel for SLOC ops wasn't sustainable. But even though it went with the J-Class, it still opted for a design that was on the lighter end (for a frigate).

With the J-Class, the PN could have opted for as large a design as it wanted, but I think the 3,300-ton configuration was extremely intentional. It's just enough to carry the desired sensor load, a respectable (and upgradeable) AAW element, and standard AShW and ASW capabilities. I suspect they also designed it to make sure KSEW (or even another Pakistani shipyard) can readily handle the work. This isn't going to be an assembly job, but a ground-up build with foreign and domestic inputs of our choice. So, it's not easy.

Overall, I think the PN had a specific price point in mind, and the J-Class is a reflection of that. The PN just needed a design that can comfortably carry those SLOC operations and play a specific role in wartime scenarios. Those who go for larger ships have different requirements (and bigger budgets). However, for the PN, they wanted a decent multi-mission ship for specific purposes that we can build domestically.

It wouldn't surprise me if the frigate after J-Class stays in the same 3,000-3,500-ton displacement range, but advances in more automation, design density (i.e., more VLS within the same size, and VLS with quad-packing), reduced acoustics, reduced infrared, etc.

 

[imranyounus]

If J class is indeed in 3000 to 3500 T category than what is the need to spend time and money on designing a new ship. They should be better off continuously developing and improving existing babur class ships.

 

[arslank03]

If J class is indeed in 3000 to 3500 T category than what is the need to spend time and money on designing a new ship. They should be better off continuously developing and improving existing babur class ships.

That is what the Jinnah class is. Its a stretched and fattened Babur class, which is a stretched and fattened Ada class.

No wheel is being reinvented, the main changes were a revised superstructure and potentially bow (from memory, i cant be bothered to dig up the photo tbh), none of this was significant in the sense that it would balloon costs, the weapons fit is marginally improved, im expecting them to go and push for a Turkish suite of sensors instead as they mature and enter production. Primarily that domestic air search AESA they had been working on- i forgot its name, but it seems like a natural progression on from the SMART-S MK2 into a more higher-end solution, whereas the MK2 is a more cost/capability balance, making compromises in one place to give benefits in another.

Aside from that, all the model really indicates is that there was an emphasis on RCS reduction, inclusion of ASROC, while also adding another 4 cells for CAMM-ER.

While Turkish missiles could be seen onboard the class, I'm skeptical for now, it would be a costly venture, the current setup, once again, is a great balance between cost/capability, VLS is expensive, very expensive, a 12 Cell MK41 setup costs $60m USD. If we were to include this on the Jinnah Class or Babur Class, it would have been even more expensive as MK41 needs to be adapted for CAMM, for this, you need an ExLS module, which sort of is an adapter, Sylver would be even pricier and the Turkish option even more expensive than the former. Also, just remember, MK41 is $60m with over 14,000 cells in service, a number which will continue to grow rapidly, it would simply be too costly to introduce a 'proper' VLS across the board, however, it does make sense for a certain type of ship, a more high end, more survivable, flag ship class, a large AAW ship to provide a defensive umbrella. But then, we need to analyse where we stop, because those missiles are not cheap either lol, SM6 costs $6m+ a shot, SM3, $35M+ a shot, and once again, these are missiles that are able to exploit those massive economies of scale.

Then I hope it's cancelled and we stick to Type 54. Also it's a heavy Corvette not a Frigate.

Why would you want this, aside from missile count, the J/B class are both on par, if not superior with their significantly more modern weapons and sensors suite. The 054A is an excellent fleet builder/backbone, as the PLAN starts to decommission them, we should be picking them up.

 

[aziqbal]

with the increase in the warships Pakistan need to careful

we need to maintain to add critical mass ships like

submarine recuse ships, training ships, surveillance ships and replenishment tankers

also one critical ship we need is mine sweepers

 

[Zarvan]

That is what the Jinnah class is. Its a stretched and fattened Babur class, which is a stretched and fattened Ada class.

No wheel is being reinvented, the main changes were a revised superstructure and potentially bow (from memory, i cant be bothered to dig up the photo tbh), none of this was significant in the sense that it would balloon costs, the weapons fit is marginally improved, im expecting them to go and push for a Turkish suite of sensors instead as they mature and enter production. Primarily that domestic air search AESA they had been working on- i forgot its name, but it seems like a natural progression on from the SMART-S MK2 into a more higher-end solution, whereas the MK2 is a more cost/capability balance, making compromises in one place to give benefits in another.

Aside from that, all the model really indicates is that there was an emphasis on RCS reduction, inclusion of ASROC, while also adding another 4 cells for CAMM-ER.

While Turkish missiles could be seen onboard the class, I'm skeptical for now, it would be a costly venture, the current setup, once again, is a great balance between cost/capability, VLS is expensive, very expensive, a 12 Cell MK41 setup costs $60m USD. If we were to include this on the Jinnah Class or Babur Class, it would have been even more expensive as MK41 needs to be adapted for CAMM, for this, you need an ExLS module, which sort of is an adapter, Sylver would be even pricier and the Turkish option even more expensive than the former. Also, just remember, MK41 is $60m with over 14,000 cells in service, a number which will continue to grow rapidly, it would simply be too costly to introduce a 'proper' VLS across the board, however, it does make sense for a certain type of ship, a more high end, more survivable, flag ship class, a large AAW ship to provide a defensive umbrella. But then, we need to analyse where we stop, because those missiles are not cheap either lol, SM6 costs $6m+ a shot, SM3, $35M+ a shot, and once again, these are missiles that are able to exploit those massive economies of scale.



Why would you want this, aside from missile count, the J/B class are both on par, if not superior with their significantly more modern weapons and sensors suite. The 054A is an excellent fleet builder/backbone, as the PLAN starts to decommission them, we should be picking them up.

Well because you need beasts like French FREMM class not this heavy corvette which will be as equipped as Gowind class corvette inducted by Egypt. You need heavy Frigates and Destroyers which have VLS to carry both air defence missiles and long range land attack cruise missiles. You need that capability to keep India at bay.

Jinah class is pretty much like a well equipped Gowind Class Corvette

Gowind-class design - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Then I hope it's cancelled and we stick to Type 54. Also it's a heavy Corvette not a Frigate.

The Navy does NOT work on your wishes and desires.
Before commenting like this think twice.

This is the last time you will be quoting me Mr.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Check out bcaa price in pakistan

How this is related to PN

 

[The Eagle]

As far as I remember the steel of last Agosta submarine was produced in Pakistan Steels Mills.

People doubts the steel production capability but there are reasons why a particular group/mafia tried everything in their best to destroy Pakistan Steel Mill.

 

[Farhan Bohra]

Sir this so called fanboy is not wrong. India already has Destroyers and Frigates which can carry such missiles in large numbers and if you don't know it's their declared goal to have a Brahmos with at least 800 KM range missile and they are working on even more long range version of Brahmos also working on sub sonic Nirbhay. So this so called fanboy is talking about a thing which India already possesses they just need to increase the range of their missile which they would soon.

View attachment 815508
Talwar class
View attachment 815509
Kolkata Class
View attachment 815510
P 15 B their latest Destroyer


That won't work when India manages to get missiles with range of more then 1600 KM. You need offensive capability through which you do same to Mumbai, Goa, Bangaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad and more if they do same to Karachi.

When the commissioning of SSNs starts, IN totally leaves the concept of stand-alone deployments, rather than CBGs and strike groups.

For standalone deployments, for establishing blockade, most likely IN keep giving orders of NGMV.

PDMS

They most likely waiting for this to complete development trials, and then give the order of NGMV. So what you are suggesting is totally wrong, and IN is totally shifting its strategy of deployments. LHD and P-18, in future take over role of strike fleet, where carrier is not available.

 

[Zarvan]

When the commissioning of SSNs starts, IN totally leaves the concept of stand-alone deployments, rather than CBGs and strike groups.

For standalone deployments, for establishing blockade, most likely IN keep giving orders of NGMV.

View attachment 817816

View attachment 817817

PDMS

They most likely waiting for this to complete development trials, and then give the order of NGMV. So what you are suggesting is totally wrong, and IN is totally shifting its strategy of deployments. LHD and P-18, in future take over role of strike fleet, where carrier is not available.

What is range of current Brahmos. And what other long range versions is India working on ? I mean is Brahmos with range of 1000 KM under development and what about Nirbhay. I am talking about Brahmos and other curise missiles which can fit into VLS of Talwar, Kolkata, P 18 and other destroyers and can be fired from them. Can you share some information which is openly available @Joe Shearer

 

[Farhan Bohra]

What is range of current Brahmos. And what other long range versions is India working on ? I mean is Brahmos with range of 1000 KM under development and what about Nirbhay. I am talking about Brahmos and other curise missiles which can fit into VLS of Talwar, Kolkata, P 18 and other destroyers and can be fired from them. Can you share some information which is openly available @Joe Shearer

The latest test confirms the BrahMos range of 700 km. But I don't think SSM version of BrahMos will be on P-15 A/B or in P-17A (right now she might have 300 km BrahMos SSM).

The role of these ships is entirely different than what you trying to portray. while NGMV fits that role what you are saying. And btw, in terms of capability, NGMV is every sense be a light frigate.

 

[Zarvan]

The latest test confirms the BrahMos range of 700 km. But I don't think SSM version of BrahMos will be on P-15 A/B or in P-17A (right now she might have 300 km BrahMos SSM).

The role of these ships is entirely different than what you trying to portray. while NGMV fits that role what you are saying. And btw, in terms of capability, NGMV is every sense be a light frigate.

I was talking to an Indian guy on twitter. Can you confirm how much of these things he is saying is true ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

What is range of current Brahmos. And what other long range versions is India working on ? I mean is Brahmos with range of 1000 KM under development and what about Nirbhay. I am talking about Brahmos and other curise missiles which can fit into VLS of Talwar, Kolkata, P 18 and other destroyers and can be fired from them. Can you share some information which is openly available @Joe Shearer

The OFFICIAL range of the Brahmos was 300 kms (accurately, I think about 290 kms), to stay within the range defined by the Missile Technology Control regulations, but it was an open secret that it was capable of almost double that range, given the original range of the Russian cruise missile on which it was closely modelled. I have not looked it up in any official publication, but I believe that it is commonly estimated at 700 kms nowadays.

In reality, it can go even further, according to information from 'usually reliable sources'. You will understand my delicacy in not putting a figure to that speculative input.