Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

[JamD]

So is there any short term alternative to hypersonic cruise missiles?
Something like hypersonic glide vehicle which we can launch by modifying our current solid fuel rockets?
Will this work out for minimum deterrence against B2 as B2 is going to be a serious threat against us?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @iLION12345_1 @Rafi your thoughts plz.

Firstly, I think hypersonic cruise missiles will have to fly at much higher altitudes compared to conventional cruise missiles. Just clarifying that don't expect it to fly near the ground. We will need alien technology to cruise for extended periods at hypersonic speeds at sea level. Maybe in a 100 years.

Secondly, hypersonic cruise missiles are challenging to design since cruise by definition is for a long duration. Rockets can only power you for so long. Air-breathing hypersonic engines are very very difficult to design/operate.

So assuming hypersonic cruise missiles as a technology of today is mistaken.

With that being said, a short-term response to an Indian induction of such a system is to declare that we will view the use of such a system as strategic (read nuclear) and will respond with ballistic missiles.

 

[Zarvan]

That has more to do with the missile (BrahMos) than the ship launching it.

So, the solution here isn't necessarily to pack more VLS into our frigates, but to get a hypersonic-cruising missile like BrahMos 2.

Sir it has to do with both. You need ships to carry them. And right now they have Brahmos which has only range of 400 KM. They would soon have a Brahmos with range of 800 KM and then 1200 and even more. Secondly you need VLS in large numbers to carry these missiles in large numbers so you can fire them in large numbers on different targets. So yes you need both Destroyers and Frigates which have several VLS to carry such missiles and also you need missiles. You get it now better or you will get them after India would unleash hell on your cities like Karachi and Gawader and you being reactionary force will then realize the importance of it and then run to get that technology. But you will. My only hope is it doesn't require massive destruction in Karachi for Navy to realize the importance of it.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Sir it has to do with both. You need ships to carry them. And right now they have Brahmos which has only range of 400 KM. They would soon have a Brahmos with range of 800 KM and then 1200 and even more. Secondly you need VLS in large numbers to carry these missiles in large numbers so you can fire them in large numbers on different targets. So yes you need both Destroyers and Frigates which have several VLS to carry such missiles and also you need missiles. You get it now better or you will get them after India would unleash hell on your cities like Karachi and Gawader and you being reactionary force will then realize the importance of it and then run to get that technology. But you will. My only hope is it doesn't require massive destruction in Karachi for Navy to realize the importance of it.

I suggest we lease Pasni, Jiwani, and Ormara to China, at least China would develop those fishing towns into full fledge cities.
Relying on Karachi is too much of a big risk.

It may sound strange, but at-least we would also get revenue from the lease.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan's current capacity enables it to take out targets 1000 km out in the sea, from a mix of systems. Given the capability increase in the works under water, manned and unmanned, India would find it hard to venture in regular WIOR region, must less target all main cities from 'Waters of Gujrat'.

Most of these accounts are fanboys. They know next to nothing about systems, capabilities on offer and their usage. This is pretty much a repeat of Su-30 will force PAF to stay on ground and never take off.

Sir this so called fanboy is not wrong. India already has Destroyers and Frigates which can carry such missiles in large numbers and if you don't know it's their declared goal to have a Brahmos with at least 800 KM range missile and they are working on even more long range version of Brahmos also working on sub sonic Nirbhay. So this so called fanboy is talking about a thing which India already possesses they just need to increase the range of their missile which they would soon.

Talwar class

Kolkata Class

P 15 B their latest Destroyer

I suggest we lease Pasni, Jiwani, and Ormara to China, at least China would develop those fishing towns into full fledge cities.
Relying on Karachi is too much of a big risk.

It may sound strange, but at-least we would also get revenue from the lease.

That won't work when India manages to get missiles with range of more then 1600 KM. You need offensive capability through which you do same to Mumbai, Goa, Bangaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad and more if they do same to Karachi.

 

[kursed]

Sir this so called fanboy is not wrong. India already has Destroyers and Frigates which can carry such missiles in large numbers and if you don't know it's their declared goal to have a Brahmos with at least 800 KM range missile and they are working on even more long range version of Brahmos also working on sub sonic Nirbhay. So this so called fanboy is talking about a thing which India already possesses they just need to increase the range of their missile which they would soon.

View attachment 815508
Talwar class
View attachment 815509
Kolkata Class
View attachment 815510
P 15 B their latest Destroyer


That won't work when India manages to get missiles with range of more then 1600 KM. You need offensive capability through which you do same to Mumbai, Goa, Bangaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad and more if they do same to Karachi.

Pakistan's capacity to interdict Indian ships 1000 km away from its coast, exists as I write these lines. Indian capacity to attack Pakistani cities from that distance will come into play at some point in future, by which Pakistan's newer unmanned and manned underwater and surface options would be coming online as well.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan's capacity to interdict Indian ships 1000 km away from its coast, exists as I write these lines. Indian capacity to attack Pakistani cities from that distance will come into play at some point in future, by which Pakistan's newer unmanned and manned underwater and surface options would be coming online as well.

You think they won't won't have their fighter jets in Air plus Submarines in water and secondly they would remain limited to 1000 KM. 1000 KM is immediate Brahmos upgrade that is in the works they are even working on more long range versions and also hypersonic ones.

 

[ARMalik]

With all due respects to Turkey and specially Pakistan, they just DO NOT have the speed, the quality, and weapon types and integration which the Chinese have for all their 054s and all of their Destroyers, cruisers, LPD, etc. PN should stop wasting time and calling these so called " Jinnah Class" as their next Generation warships, which honestly is laughable. Why are they calling these their next generation warships? What new qualities or lethality do these bring VS the Chinese warships???

Let me answer this -- ZERO !!

If PN is so keen for these so called "Jinnah Class", they can do it as "hobby" but PN needs to immediately order Additional 4 x Type 054, and 2 x 052 Destroyers to bring some equilibrium with the IN. PN has been wasting time and chit-chatting for the last 20-years. Now finally they were doing something good by buying 054, and now they seem to be playing games again.

 

[khansaheeb]

Firstly, I think hypersonic cruise missiles will have to fly at much higher altitudes compared to conventional cruise missiles. Just clarifying that don't expect it to fly near the ground. We will need alien technology to cruise for extended periods at hypersonic speeds at sea level. Maybe in a 100 years.

Secondly, hypersonic cruise missiles are challenging to design since cruise by definition is for a long duration. Rockets can only power you for so long. Air-breathing hypersonic engines are very very difficult to design/operate.

So assuming hypersonic cruise missiles as a technology of today is mistaken.

With that being said, a short-term response to an Indian induction of such a system is to declare that we will view the use of such a system as strategic (read nuclear) and will respond with ballistic missiles.

If India inducts a hypersonic cruise missile, Pakistan will also induct. Strategic balance will be maintained, whatever the cost.

 

[Shabi1]

PN is going from from a defensive posture to a offensive force. Thinking strategically this would give Pakistan a greater bargaining leverage.

Imagine in any future conflict, while shore based missiles protect our own ports/seas, PN assets deployed deep to enforce a naval blockade of supplies to India, risk of global disruption of trade would make international community step in to diffuse quick. Meanwhile China would have CPEC route to bypass Indian waters for continuation of trade and supplies to Pakistan.

With sophistication of systems both sides expected to have sizeable losses in war but what matters is once they are on the negotiation table via international pressure which party would have the greater strategic leverage. PAF would need to stand its ground via area denial tactics where as PA would go on offensive defense that is quick capture of key points. Because of nuclear threat escalation any Pak-India conflict will probably be 5-7days max.

 

[ARMalik]

PN is going from from a defensive posture to a offensive force. Thinking strategically this would give Pakistan a greater bargaining leverage.

Imagine in any future conflict, while shore based missiles protect our own ports/seas, PN assets deployed deep to enforce a naval blockade of supplies to India, risk of global disruption of trade would make international community step in to diffuse quick. Meanwhile China would have CPEC route to bypass Indian waters for continuation of trade and supplies to Pakistan.

With sophistication of systems both sides expected to have sizeable losses in war but what matters is once they are on the negotiation table via international pressure which party would have the greater strategic leverage. PAF would need to stand its ground via area denial tactics where as PA would go on offensive defense that is quick capture of key points. Because of nuclear threat escalation any Pak-India conflict will probably be 5-7days max.

Without a dedicated medium sized Air-arm loaded with capable fighters, PN will NEVER become an offensive force.

 

[Shabi1]

Without a dedicated medium sized Air-arm loaded with capable fighters, PN will NEVER become an offensive force.

PN is compensating for that via a strong submarine force. Also for deep sea air delivery of missiles the future Sea Sultans would be even more threatening than shore based JF-17s, because of the added loiter benefit.

 

[kursed]

You think they won't won't have their fighter jets in Air plus Submarines in water and secondly they would remain limited to 1000 KM. 1000 KM is immediate Brahmos upgrade that is in the works they are even working on more long range versions and also hypersonic ones.

You're mixing their future capability with Pakistan's current capacity. What makes you believe that Pakistan will not increase the interdiction range?

 

[SQ8]

Pakistan's capacity to interdict Indian ships 1000 km away from its coast, exists as I write these lines. Indian capacity to attack Pakistani cities from that distance will come into play at some point in future, by which Pakistan's newer unmanned and manned underwater and surface options would be coming online as well.

It cannot be understated how strong the naval component of Pakistan’s defense has become. Especially from a A2/AD perspective its extends to that range and will continue to expand beyond - India will have to commit massive resources to stop Pakistan’s sea lines

 

[Zarvan]

You're mixing their future capability with Pakistan's current capacity. What makes you believe that Pakistan will not increase the interdiction range?

Sir only thing in future is range of their missiles. Just making your defense strong won't work if you don't have the offensive punch to back it up which means unleashing hell on your enemies specially their main cities for example Mumbai. You need a offensive punch which includes long range cruise missiles both which can be fired from land, air, sea and under sea on targets which are on land and also on sea. When I say long range I mean minimum range of 1500 KM. India's budget is increasing and soon they would have enough capability to deploy several heavy Frigates and Destroyers to launch dozens of missiles at same time.

Secondly Air Defence systems are good but not perfect not even close. Hamas rockets still penetrate Israeli Air Defence systems and India doesn't fire third grade rockets.

 

[sparten]

tbh all 3 ship types are multi-mission by design, so they're all equipped for AAW, AShW and ASW.

There really zilch reason to employ 5 different classes of frigates, unless they each bring unique capability. Both the Yarmooks, and Baburs are frigates in size and capability despite being labelled as Corvettes, although it appears Yarmooks are being used in the coastal defence role.

But the B-Class and J-Class have a better anti-air warfare (AAW) capability. The B-Class/J-Class aren't bottlenecked by the need to rely on illuminator radars, so they can launch SAMs in larger salvos. In all likelihood, the B-Class and J-Class will be protecting the task force from most aerial threats, especially low-fliers and missiles. The T-Class would likely focus on engaging aircraft. Yes, the T-Class is carrying more SAMs by capacity, but from a real-time employment standpoint, it can't launch as many at one time as the B-Class or J-Class. This would change if the PN swap the SARH LY-80s with an ARH-based SAM similar to CAMM-ER.

I suspect the Tughril will have the groups Air Warfare coordinator on board.