Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

[maverick1977]

Depends on how big the VLS are and what they are packing.
16 SAM's sucks.
16 Hypersonic P272 is a deadly warship.


Yes. USN and now PLAN DDG are designed to escort carrier and amphibious groups. Our warships are meant to lead surface action groups.
USN DDG's especially have limited AShM capability (until the new LRSM enters service).

32-64 cell Will hold a punch performing multiple tasks for AAW, AsW simultaneously

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The J-Class design can probably handle 32 VLS cells. The fact that we are seeing 16 likely has to do with the limited VLS module options available to the PN. The PN likely sought a quad-pack solution like SYLVER or Mk41 (which would enable each ship to carry 32 SAMs), but the French and Americans probably refused to release either, leaving the PN with the GWS modules instead.

IMO, the real question isn't why the J-Class has 16 VLS cells, but why they picked the CAMM-ER. Well, again, it likely has to do with the lack of options with the desired capabilities. However, I don't think the CAMM-ER is a given for the J-Class. The ship hasn't even entered production so I doubt the PN froze its weapons and subsystem configurations yet. It's possible that once the Turkish naval SAMs and VLS come online, the PN could switch to those. In this case, we may see a 32-cell configuration. Who knows, it might even carry the SIPER long-range SAM.

 

[sparten]

I actually disagree @Bilal Khan (Quwa).
By 2030 Blue water Surface Action task forces will likely be comprised of
1x Jinnah class
1xTughril
1x Babar
1X SSK
It makes sense that the Jinnahs will concentrate more on surface warfare while the other two do coordinate air and subsurface. Data links will allow the Group to coordinate ane expand its AD bubble beyond just what a single warship would have.
(I think Zulfqars will lead coastal task forces).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I actually disagree @Bilal Khan (Quwa).
By 2030 Blue water Surface Action task forces will likely be comprised of
1x Jinnah class
1xTughril
1x Babar
1X SSK
It makes sense that the Jinnahs will concentrate more on surface warfare while the other two do coordinate air and subsurface. Data links will allow the Group to coordinate ane expand its AD bubble beyond just what a single warship would have.
(I think Zulfqars will lead coastal task forces).

tbh all 3 ship types are multi-mission by design, so they're all equipped for AAW, AShW and ASW.

But the B-Class and J-Class have a better anti-air warfare (AAW) capability. The B-Class/J-Class aren't bottlenecked by the need to rely on illuminator radars, so they can launch SAMs in larger salvos. In all likelihood, the B-Class and J-Class will be protecting the task force from most aerial threats, especially low-fliers and missiles. The T-Class would likely focus on engaging aircraft. Yes, the T-Class is carrying more SAMs by capacity, but from a real-time employment standpoint, it can't launch as many at one time as the B-Class or J-Class. This would change if the PN swap the SARH LY-80s with an ARH-based SAM similar to CAMM-ER.

As for surface-to-surface capability, all 3 are very close. The T-Class is equipped with the supersonic-cruising element (CM-302), while the B-Class will likely either have the sub-sonic dual-LACM/ASCM (Harbah) or P282. The J-Class is unclear, the brochure states P282, but the model shows a 2x4 config for Harpoon/C-802A-type sub-sonic ASCM. Moreover, we don't have a clear idea of what P282 is... It's a hypersonic ballistic missile, but how that looks from a capacity standpoint is unknown. That said, each of the T-Class, B-Class, and J-Class are employing a unique surface-to-surface capability.

If anything, the 3 ship types are really similar in overall capability to each other, except they're all different. So, the PN is basically banking on diversity within the task force. It makes dealing with that force a bit more difficult because you have different SAMs in play, different SSM capabilities, different radars and ESM, and so on. There's a scenario in the future where all 3 could have a long-range SAM.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

The T-Class is equipped with the supersonic-cruising element (CM-302)

It's not confirmed yet according to @Tipu7 .So it can be our indeginous SCM also.May be PN will work out a Supersonic cruise Missile and will standardize it on all upcoming ships.

But anything can happen as of now.

 

[Zarvan]

Can you explain to me why you need 32 VLS launchers. What capacity does the IN/IAF have for ASMs and how many do you see coming towards the PN ship in one go. Similarly under what scenarios do you see a saturation attack on a PNS ship and how many planes do you see doing that.
You want things just because the US Navy has them or the PLAN has them. Can you do a detailed analysis on what the difference between the needs of these 2 would be as against PN.
ONCEyou have answered the questions raised we can debate the value of having 32 VLS.
While you are at it can you calculate the cost of launching a ship filled with 32 missiles
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

View attachment 815420

That has more to do with the missile (BrahMos) than the ship launching it.

So, the solution here isn't necessarily to pack more VLS into our frigates, but to get a hypersonic-cruising missile like BrahMos 2.

 

[Aslan]

Quad packed configuration for air defense will be exercised in Tughril class frigates in the future.

Mind if I ask what's a quad packed system.
Thanks

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Mind if I ask what's a quad packed system.
Thanks

1 VLS cell carries 4 missiles. So, a quad-packed 8-cell VLS system would carry 32 missiles instead of only 8.

 

[Aslan]

1 VLS cell carries 4 missiles. So, a quad-packed 8-cell VLS system would carry 32 missiles instead of only 8.

I was looking for it on YouTube but it kept showing close range panister type systems

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I was looking for it on YouTube but it kept showing close range panister type systems

 

[Hassan Guy]

View attachment 815439

Is a VLS really even high tech or complex?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Is a VLS really even high tech or complex?

I guess it depends on the VLS and the missiles you're using. The missiles have to be quad-pack-able by design, which requires a more advanced base in terms of design. You need missiles with foldable stabilizers, maybe a thrust-vectoring nozzle, perhaps certain solid fuel compositions (to balance size, weight, and range, etc). It's the multiple parts that make the whole pretty complex.

...which, for our part, we could've learned from South Africa when given the chance ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[kursed]

View attachment 815420

Pakistan's current capacity enables it to take out targets 1000 km out in the sea, from a mix of systems. Given the capability increase in the works under water, manned and unmanned, India would find it hard to venture in regular WIOR region, must less target all main cities from 'Waters of Gujrat'.

Most of these accounts are fanboys. They know next to nothing about systems, capabilities on offer and their usage. This is pretty much a repeat of Su-30 will force PAF to stay on ground and never take off.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

It is almost known that Pakistan will not achieve hypersonic cruise Missile technology ( only Supersonic cruise Missile technology will be achieved by 2030) will be achieved before 2030 while India will most probably get it by Russian cooperation.

So is there any short term alternative to hypersonic cruise missiles?
Something like hypersonic glide vehicle which we can launch by modifying our current solid fuel rockets?
Will this work out for minimum deterrence against B2 as B2 is going to be a serious threat against us?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @iLION12345_1 @Rafi your thoughts plz.