Pakistan's Declining Economy Since 2008

[RiazHaq]

Infra growth = Development ---YES
Roads(only) = Infra growth ---NO

check the WEF reports. India scores higher in business Infra than Pakistan despite its bad roads etc

I agree that infrastructure is more than roads.

As to WEF report, I think their way of looking at it seems rather skewed. Most visitors to South Asia who compare the infrastructure of the two nations agree that Pakistan's infrastructure is better in quality.

Only 30 per cent of India's state highways have two lanes or more, and the majority are in poor condition, according to the World Bank. Electricity generation capacity has grown at less than 5 per cent in the past five years, much slower than overall economic growth of about 8 per cent over the same period.

Haq's Musings: Foreign Aid Continues to Pour in Resurgent India

Haq's Musings: Foreign Visitors to Pakistan Pleasantly Surprised

 

[agniv]

^^ Perhaps you are an exception, but wait you visited 5 years ago and that is post 9/11 period.
All i know about india is people shiting in open... while others are sleeping next to it.

Where as i agree to your point... when a road is getting widened it in one decade it is wrong but this is due to politicians dictating matters.

Please don't make fun of others problems. They are not doing it by choice. Most of the people migrate from villages to city to make their life better.

please check the link

Karachi: 42% of city’s population without proper toilet drainage

http : / / dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20091119story_19-11-2009_pg12_7

 

[karan.1970]

I agree that infrastructure is more than roads.

As to WEF report, I think their way of looking at it seems rather skewed. Most visitors to South Asia who compare the infrastructure of the two nations agree that Pakistan's infrastructure is better in quality.

Only 30 per cent of India's state highways have two lanes or more, and the majority are in poor condition, according to the World Bank. Electricity generation capacity has grown at less than 5 per cent in the past five years, much slower than overall economic growth of about 8 per cent over the same period.

Haq's Musings: Foreign Aid Continues to Pour in Resurgent India

Haq's Musings: Foreign Visitors to Pakistan Pleasantly Surprised

See you have again flipped over to roads

WEF defines Infrastructure to consist of following (along with world ranking out of 133 countries for India and Pakistan)

India

OVER ALL RANK 76/133

2.01 Quality of overall infrastructure 89
2.02 Quality of roads89
2.03 Quality of railroad infrastructure 20
2.04 Quality of port infrastructure 90
2.05 Quality of air transport infrastructure 65
2.06 Available seat kilometers 10
2.07 Quality of electricity supply 106
2.08 Telephone lines 103

Pakistan

OVER ALL RANK 89/133
2.01 Quality of overall infrastructure 87
2.02 Quality of roads 65
2.03 Quality of railroad infrastructure 51
2.04 Quality of port infrastructure 73
2.05 Quality of air transport infrastructure 76
2.06 Available seat kilometers 48
2.07 Quality of electricity supply 124
2.08 Telephone lines 107


SO while you are right on Roads, India scores much better on rails, air and electricity and gets a better score over all

Remember Infrastructure is not just what is visible to visitors....

 

[jha]

however we should not forget the development in the fields of infrastructure going all over the country...

however lets get back to the topic,,,

 

[RiazHaq]

Please don't make fun of others problems. They are not doing it by choice. Most of the people migrate from villages to city to make their life better.

please check the link

Karachi: 42% of city’s population without proper toilet drainage

http : / / dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20091119story_19-11-2009_pg12_7

New Delhi, Nov 17 (IANS) India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.Lizette Burgers, chief water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, Monday said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia.

While a mere 14 percent of people in rural areas of the country - that account for 65 percent of its 1.1 billion population - had access to toilets in 1990, the number had gone up to 28 percent in 2006. In comparison, 33 percent rural Pakistanis had access to toilets in 1990 and it went up to an impressive 58 percent in 2006.

Similarly in Bangladesh, 36 percent of rural people have access to proper sanitation. The corresponding figures for Afghanistan and Sri Lanka were 30 percent and 86 percent respectively.

“This is a huge problem. India has made some progress but there is a lot to be desired. The speed in which we are (India) increasing the toilet usage will not help much,” Burgers told IANS, a day before an international sanitation campaign in Delhi.

She, however, said that the huge population in India is a major challenge. Burgers said that between 1990 and 2006, rural areas of the country has witnessed a growth of 181 million people of which 39 million people did not have access to toilets.

According to the international health and sanitation watchdog, there are at least 2.5 billion people across the globe who do not have access to toilets and 50 percent of them are in the south Asian region.

That is the main reason why 50 percent of the global child mortality rate is reported from the same region. Besides, many children suffer from diarrhoea as well as pneumonia and other respiratory problems in India.

While 88 percent of all diarrhoea case are attributed to water, and lack of sanitation and hygiene, all roundworm and hookworm cases in children are due to poor sanitation facilities.

Experts said open defecation is one of the key reasons for malnutrition and stunted growth among kids and looking at the sanitation scenario, the situation is not bright for Indian children.

To highlight the issue, New Delhi is hosting the third South Asian Conference on Sanitation (SACOSAN-III). Beginning Tuesday, the four-day conference will be inaugurated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Over 1,000 delegates from both government and private sector from several South Asian countries including India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan will participate in the programme.

“We are stressing on four major issues - urban sanitation, manual scavenging, menstrual hygiene and school sanitation,” said S.K. Singh, of Water Aid, a partner NGO of the conference.

More at : India trails Pakistan, Bangladesh in sanitation India trails Pakistan, Bangladesh in sanitation

 

[NWO]

I think I have the idea of getting the economy working again in Pakistan. Why not get the government the hell out of it? And develop a free-market economy.

Currently, our economy is mixed by definitions. The biggest problem is the state bank, State Bank of Pakistan. The market will set its own prices according to its own forces, supply and demand. No state bank can do that.

If you need real life example, look at US. After the Revolution War, US was in massive debt. From 1791 to 1802, US not only paid it off but had a surplus equal to the government spending. Without any state bank.

 

[RiazHaq]

See you have again flipped over to roads

WEF defines Infrastructure to consist of following (along with world ranking out of 133 countries for India and Pakistan)

India

OVER ALL RANK 76/133

2.01 Quality of overall infrastructure 89
2.02 Quality of roads89
2.03 Quality of railroad infrastructure 20
2.04 Quality of port infrastructure 90
2.05 Quality of air transport infrastructure 65
2.06 Available seat kilometers 10
2.07 Quality of electricity supply 106
2.08 Telephone lines 103

Pakistan

OVER ALL RANK 89/133
2.01 Quality of overall infrastructure 87
2.02 Quality of roads 65
2.03 Quality of railroad infrastructure 51
2.04 Quality of port infrastructure 73
2.05 Quality of air transport infrastructure 76
2.06 Available seat kilometers 48
2.07 Quality of electricity supply 124
2.08 Telephone lines 107


SO while you are right on Roads, India scores much better on rails, air and electricity and gets a better score over all

Remember Infrastructure is not just what is visible to visitors....

Even the WEF data makes my point in terms of Pakistan's edge in overall quality of infrastructure, although I still have a few quibbles about it.

I'm not sure what telephone lines it's measuring to rank Pakistan lower.

At 58%, the cell phone penetration in Pakistan is the highest in South Asia. And the Internet access at 10.6% is also higher than India's 7%.

Haq's Musings: Pakistan's Telecom Boom Continues

 

[jagjitnatt]

New Delhi, Nov 17 (IANS) India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.Lizette Burgers, chief water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, Monday said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia.

While a mere 14 percent of people in rural areas of the country - that account for 65 percent of its 1.1 billion population - had access to toilets in 1990, the number had gone up to 28 percent in 2006. In comparison, 33 percent rural Pakistanis had access to toilets in 1990 and it went up to an impressive 58 percent in 2006.

Similarly in Bangladesh, 36 percent of rural people have access to proper sanitation. The corresponding figures for Afghanistan and Sri Lanka were 30 percent and 86 percent respectively.

“This is a huge problem. India has made some progress but there is a lot to be desired. The speed in which we are (India) increasing the toilet usage will not help much,” Burgers told IANS, a day before an international sanitation campaign in Delhi.

She, however, said that the huge population in India is a major challenge. Burgers said that between 1990 and 2006, rural areas of the country has witnessed a growth of 181 million people of which 39 million people did not have access to toilets.

According to the international health and sanitation watchdog, there are at least 2.5 billion people across the globe who do not have access to toilets and 50 percent of them are in the south Asian region.

That is the main reason why 50 percent of the global child mortality rate is reported from the same region. Besides, many children suffer from diarrhoea as well as pneumonia and other respiratory problems in India.

While 88 percent of all diarrhoea case are attributed to water, and lack of sanitation and hygiene, all roundworm and hookworm cases in children are due to poor sanitation facilities.

Experts said open defecation is one of the key reasons for malnutrition and stunted growth among kids and looking at the sanitation scenario, the situation is not bright for Indian children.

To highlight the issue, New Delhi is hosting the third South Asian Conference on Sanitation (SACOSAN-III). Beginning Tuesday, the four-day conference will be inaugurated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Over 1,000 delegates from both government and private sector from several South Asian countries including India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan will participate in the programme.

“We are stressing on four major issues - urban sanitation, manual scavenging, menstrual hygiene and school sanitation,” said S.K. Singh, of Water Aid, a partner NGO of the conference.

More at : India trails Pakistan, Bangladesh in sanitation India trails Pakistan, Bangladesh in sanitation

I knew someone would post something like this.

 

[ameer219]

I knew someone would post something like this.

Now you know why I did not get involved. It was about Pakistan, and now it becomes about India.

 

[HariSeldon]

The thread is abt Pakistan's Eco. woes, started by Pakistani national. Its now discussed by thread starter and other members how Pakistan is better that its neighbor, how they India recvd more Aid and what not (Pls don't argue that Indian members started it. Its your problem you are discussing and you can ignore them). If Pakistani members think that magic wand for their eco woes are criticizing their neighbors and highlighting their problems, I think they might also start doing so with their western neighbors too. I bet you must have lot of positives with respect to them and this might make your woes disappear double fast.

I though disagree with this line of thinking. Aid or no-aid, Infra or no-Infra,. Economic growth of any nation, in free market eco, depends a lot on the ingenuity of their citizens. Govt. policies can do upto a limit. Its upto the ppl living in Pakistan to identify the opportunity and exploit them.

regards,

 

[toxic_pus]

New Delhi, Nov 17 (IANS) India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.Lizette Burgers, chief water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, Monday said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia.

-bla bla bla-

More at : India trails Pakistan, Bangladesh in sanitation India trails Pakistan, Bangladesh in sanitation

From declining Pakistani economy to how aids have built India to bad Indian roads to bad Indian sanitation. What is the next stop in derailment of your own thread?

Anyway.

Here is a break up of cargo traffic handled by different modes of transportation.

'According to the report, in 2007-08, out of total originating traffic of 2555.35 million tonnes (mt), the Railways accounted for 30.08 per cent (768.7 mt) share of the cargo, highways accounted for 61 per cent (1558.9 mt), coastal shipping mode accounted for 2.31 per cent (59.1 mt), pipelines accounted for 4.44 per cent (113.5 mt), inland water transport accounted for 2.15 per cent (54.9 mt) and airlines accounted for 0.01 per cent (0.28 mt) share of the cargo.'

Kelick

It appears bad Indian roads are still the preferred mode for transportation, proving that road conditions can barely be indicative of industrial and commercial health of a country.

 

[RiazHaq]

I though disagree with this line of thinking. Aid or no-aid, Infra or no-Infra,. Economic growth of any nation, in free market eco, depends a lot on the ingenuity of their citizens. Govt. policies can do upto a limit. Its upto the ppl living in Pakistan to identify the opportunity and exploit them.
regards,

What differentiates the industrialized world from the developing world is the level of public spending on education, health care and infrastructure. Without these basic priorities, it is extremely difficult for people to develop and utilize their ingenuity.

No developing country can become economically, politically or militarily strong without first developing its people, and its infrastructure.

Unfortunately, the nations of South Asia have been very negligent in their fundamental responsibility. That's why both India and Pakistan appear near the bottom of most rankings on social indicators or infrastructure. Both India and Pakistan have slipped in human development in the 2009 rankings.

Haq's Musings: Food, Clothing and Shelter in India and Pakistan

Haq's Musings: South Asia Slipping in Human Development

 

[NWO]

RizaHaq, have you ever looked at why Americans have always been on the edge of discovering the latest technology? Why they have always been so economically and militarily dominant? Its because the people have reason to go for their full potential.

In a free-market economy lead by a limited republic, not a democratic government, gives its people incentive to pursue their full potential. In communism, for example, why should you give it your all when you work as a carpenter if you get no reward? You don't, because anything you make will be taken away and given to someone else.

In a free-market economy, the carpenter who makes the best quality will make the most money, and hence he/she will pursue the quickest and cheapest way while still maintaining quality.

Like I said, a free-market economy will turn Pakistan into a first-world country within twenty years.

 

[HariSeldon]

What differentiates the industrialized world from the developing world is the level of public spending on education, health care and infrastructure. Without these basic priorities, it is extremely difficult for people to develop and utilize their ingenuity.
No developing country can become economically, politically or militarily strong without first developing its people, and its infrastructure.
Unfortunately, the nations of South Asia have been very negligent in their fundamental responsibility. That's why both India and Pakistan appear near the bottom of most rankings on social indicators or infrastructure. Both India and Pakistan have slipped in human development in the 2009 rankings.

Haq's Musings: Food, Clothing and Shelter in India and Pakistan

Haq's Musings: South Asia Slipping in Human Development

Difficult, may be..but this also gives you opportunity which are not present in developed countries.
Grameen Bank in BD is case in point. The env in which they operated were very dismal. But they turned the disadvantages in opportunity. And I believe they are earning profit rather than doing charity. Last I heard they are working on providing pukka home and involved in telecommunication.
Another ex. is Sulabh Org in India. They are involved in sanitation. Not sure abt there current financial status.

I can give you other Indian examples but this might derail the thread.

My belief is that these ex. are rule rather than exception and you have to look around for opportunity.

 

[karan.1970]

Even the WEF data makes my point in terms of Pakistan's edge in overall quality of infrastructure, although I still have a few quibbles about it.

It does NOT prove your point at all. If you go thru the report you will find that this component (labled quality of overall infra) is for all other infrastructure except roads, rails, ports, airports, telecom and electricity and is not a total of the same. Its more like Misc infra.

I'm not sure what telephone lines it's measuring to rank Pakistan lower.

At 58%, the cell phone penetration in Pakistan is the highest in South Asia. And the Internet access at 10.6% is also higher than India's 7%

WEF Lists the following for the source on this..
SOURCE: International Telecommunication Union, World Telecommunication Indicators (June 2009 update); national sources