Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[blain2]

You are putting way too much emphasis on real estate. Space does not make the system a Phalcon or an Erieye. The same Phalcon radar and the associated hardware has been housed on 3 GF550s for the IDFAF. These are small commuter aircraft even smaller than the Pakistani SAAB 2000s. I am sure the Israelis have not cut corners on their own requirements by going with a much smaller platform than the one the IAF has picked for themselves in the form of IL-78s. So I do not buy this bigger = better argument. Now for certain roles like policing around the region, as you have mentioned, you may want more air crew comfort with more lavatories, bunk beds etc. and that can be had on larger aircraft, however that hardly makes for a qualitative superiority over a platform that has more limited space yet packs similar radar and ECM/ECCM capabilities.

 

[sancho]

Phalcon can be refueled. But how would you handle 10+ hours flight? You will make errors even with reserve crew. So Erieye has enough potential. And the radar is better suited in heavy cluttered and filled with ecm environment. It can act more stealthy due its pencil means. It is smaller so less handy to track from huge distance. And it is a lot cheaper in maintenance....

Capability are better in closer range.

Even the Mki handle long hour missions with only 2 pilots, so it should be no problem for AWACS with a complete second crew!
In case of the radar system both should be at the same advanced level with slightly advantages like Blain2 pointed out. But the A50 gives IAF a clear advantage as long PAF has not some more numbers of AWACS aircrafts. But both will serve their airforces with their different requirements well.

Doubtful about refueling. With the rotodome, it would be very hard as well in practice.

Why the refueling probe is in front of the cockpit, this seems to be easier than the refueling of US AWACS:

Indian awacs image by adux21 on Photobucket

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/eads-awacs-refuelling.jpg

 

[BoggedDown]

Would you not wonder consider why countries go for AWACS as opposed to AEW&C's were there no difference.

This is the typical mistake most people make when discussing this subject. The matter of fact is AWACS was the name of the project for the development of E3 Sentry for USAF and AEW&C is the function it is developed to perform. But now a days in general discussion the term AWACS is used for every aircraft which performs AEW&C function. But if you really want to be picky only E3 Sentry is the AWACS and all including the E3 Sentry are functioning as AEW&C ....

 

[hj786]

On the refueling issue too, PAF Erieyes are fully capable of IFR. Better fuel economy and station time were key clinchers for choosing the turbo-props (its one of the fastest ones around) over jets.

Blain sir, do you mean to say PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye will be equipped with IFR probes? Can I ask about the source of this information? I have not read anything like that on the internet.

 

[blain2]

I am wrong on that count and glad you pointed it out. I was thinking about another offered configuration of the Erieye. My apologies.

 

[hj786]

I am wrong on that count and glad you pointed it out. I was thinking about another offered configuration of the Erieye. My apologies.

Why didn't PAF go for the Embraer 145 platform for Erieye? Almost the same range and cargo/crew capacity as Saab 2000, higher ceiling and speed, IFR capable. Even if Saab 2000 is a lot more fuel efficient at low speed, the Embraer can be refuelled in the air.

I guess the Swedes told them if they want the best EW/ESM and defensive aids systems, they have to buy the Swedish platform. That plus the fuel efficiency and loitering time without IFR.

Anybody know if they'll fit ZDK03 with IFR probes?

 

[mean_bird]

Why didn't PAF go for the Embraer 145 platform for Erieye? Almost the same range and cargo/crew capacity as Saab 2000, higher ceiling and speed, IFR capable. Even if Saab 2000 is a lot more fuel efficient at low speed, the Embraer can be refuelled in the air.

?

Time factor.

Another platform would have required waiting till atleast 2012-13 to get delivery of the first platform.

Besides, the SAAB can be used for about 9.5 hours at one stretch which is quite satisfactory for an AEW&C.

 

[Gucci Juice]

i dont know if i'm right or not

but i think phalcon is more than aewacs...

its an ew
its a signals intelligence
its an electronic intelligence
it also has verification systems to confirm what the radar saw
it has like 100 antennas other than the radar
its a complete aewacs not aew meaning that it doesn't need ground based operators to control airspace while the new phalcons caews is just an aew justifying its small size

btw all of these are "i think"

i think there are some articles on them just dont feel like finding them.

 

[blain2]

i dont know if i'm right or not

but i think phalcon is more than aewacs...

its an ew
its a signals intelligence
its an electronic intelligence
it also has verification systems to confirm what the radar saw
it has like 100 antennas other than the radar
its a complete aewacs not aew meaning that it doesn't need ground based operators to control airspace while the new phalcons caews is just an aew justifying its small size

btw all of these are "i think"

i think there are some articles on them just dont feel like finding them.

Same deal with Erieye. Most don't realize the capabilities afforded by Erieye and tend to discount it based on biases towards Phalcon. The reality is different. PAF burnt a lot of midnight oil trying to figure out if the Erieye was going to be worth it or not and in the end got what they wanted from SAAB.

Don't find the articles because those are the exact amateur articles that tend to suggest that Phalcon is better because its bigger and more expensive. The only point they offer is the absolute range of the Phalcon for early detection. That is hardly the only factor to be considered in the evaluation of modern AEW&CS platforms.

 

[Munir]

 

[Munir]

Ok, let us focus on detection range only:

Anyone same for data for:

Phalcon?

 

[blain2]

Funny enough, in the graphic the aircraft shown to represent "fighter aircraft" is a Su-30

 

[Keysersoze]

Yeah but isn't the standard fighter sized target 1metre sqaure? the su-30 is at the least 3m2 if not larger

 

[sancho]

Blain2, I have to say he is right!
I tried to get more infos about the Phalcon and the Erieye system, to understand what the differences are and as Gucci Juice said it seems to be the intelligence gathering capability!

PAF will getting the 5 Saab 2000 AEW&C right? But Saab also offers the Saab 2000 Sigstar, which is an spy aircraft specially for signal-, comunications- and electronic signals- intelligence missions!

http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...ECA8/7511/Saab_2000_ERIEYE_AEWC_Datasheet.pdf

http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...14DFECA8/7512/Saab_2000_SIGSTAR_Datasheet.pdf

Wiki definition: Signals intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brazilian Embraer which uses the same Erieye system on their aircrafts also have 2 versions:
EMB 145 AEW&C
Embraer Defense Systems

EMB 145 MULTI INTEL
Embraer Defense Systems

You said that the Phalcon has a bit more detection range, but what I also found out is that it offers full 360° detection. The Saab 2000 Erieye (and all other aircrafts with similar radar on top systems) offers the full detection range only to 300° as the following video and article shows:

Erieye AEW&C Airborne Early Warning & Control mission system radar (Sweden) - Jane's Avionics

Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions

Also in the same article it is mentioned that:

It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector.

To make it clear, it's not my intention to blame the Erieye system!
But the Phalcon system seems to offer all important intelligence gathering features in a single aircraft and in combination with the better platforms (the rotodome and the aircraft) it gives some advantages to IAF.

More infos to the Phalcon system:

Phalcon airborne early warning system (Israel) - Jane's C4I Systems

Phalcon Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW & C) radar (Israel) - Jane's Radar And Electronic Warfare Systems

Phalcon

 

[mean_bird]

Saab Erieye has full 360° Azimuth coverage. Its been posted here quite a few time from the official saab 2000 brochure.