Pakistanis Want Madrasa Reform

[Flintlock]

I'd suggest that Pakistanis adopt Turkish or Malaysian/Indonesian muslims as role models rather than Arabs/Iranians.

 

[Spring Onion]

But how does one convince muslims, that the version of Islam that the people of the center of the Islamic world, is infact wrong?

Especially since these days, its so damn easy to be branded an Islamic heretic?

version of Islam ????????????????????????????????????
These are the version of different schools of thought and not Islam.

I say just follow the Quran and Sunnah and forget what some clerics say as most of the clerics often refrain from quoting the follwoing order after just explaining the first or later part of an order. Just like the anti-Islam people try to quote some half verses that suits their agenda.

Quran and Sunnah is very very clear and describe entire code of life for Muslims.

The unfortuant thing is almost the entire Muslims world just read Quran without understanding which is the basic reason for many misunderstanding and we run towards clerics for things to get defined.
In this attempt there are majority of the clerics who mix up and confuse Traditions and Customs with saying and orders in Quran.
i had felt that this is the area where confusion and misinterpretations result.

 

[Flintlock]

version of Islam ????????????????????????????????????
These are the version of different schools of thought and not Islam.

Just a difference in word usage.

I say just follow the Quran and Sunnah and forget what some clerics say as most of the clerics often refrain from quoting the follwoing order after just explaining the first or later part of an order. Just like the anti-Islam people try to quote some half verses that suits their agenda.

Quran and Sunnah is very very clear and describe entire code of life for Muslims.

Clearly, reality tells a different story.

The unfortuant thing is almost the entire Muslims world just read Quran without understanding which is the basic reason for many misunderstanding and we run towards clerics for things to get defined.
In this attempt there are majority of the clerics who mix up and confuse Traditions and Customs with saying and orders in Quran.
i had felt that this is the area where confusion and misinterpretations result.

But then if clerics, who are supposed to be the "experts", make such dangerous mistakes,
How can you expect the common man to do any better? It'll be chaos!!
Everyone will have his/her own "school" of Islam.

 

[Energon]

Interpretation of the Quran has focused far to long on the material, and that sounds counterintuitive but it is true – Scholars spend far too much time emphasizing the physical manifestations of faith –how important prayer 5 times a day is, what the correct ablution method is, how long your toenails should be (I had to listen to a Friday sermon on this in a mosque in Model Town Lahore last time I visited, and those familiar realize that it is hardly a sleepy backwater), what foot you should use to step into a mosque etc. My entire experience of an education in Islam has primarily focused on what I should or shouldn’t do, in the physical sense. Other examples being the focus on hallal and haram acts and food. Where is the spirituality in all of this?

Interpretations of religious scripture and subsequent amendments in practice IMO are highly correlative to the real time condition of the society. If you look throughout human history, religions have always become highly ritualistic, narrow minded and overly dogmatic when the society at large faces difficulties on account of hostility, poverty, imbalanced progress and general deterioration/stagnation/regression in human development. These are usually on account of both exogenous and endogenous factors and lead to a vast array of self perpetuating vicious cycles. Eventually the demands for ritualistic conservatism heavily dominates that for healthy progress and most signs of enlightenment (the founding factors of religions) fade away or become extinct.

Yet, I think it's really funny that religious groups and cultures don't really give this any thought and merely resort to pointing fingers at each other.

 

[Energon]

Quran and Sunnah is very very clear and describe entire code of life for Muslims.

Actually I would wager a bet that this is infact not clear at all, and that these codes are in many ways incompatible with the rapidly globalizing human civilization today.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

These are the version of different schools of thought and not Islam.

The difference is so pronounced that it almost appears that they are going their own way!

In Christianity, there is an internal tussle between the various denomination and the worst was exhibited in Northern Ireland, but Christianity, has on the surface, is existing with coexistence and there is no reports of sectarian riots.

Don't you think that Islam should follow the same coexistence rather hard sell the different version including through regular violence that is so rampant, especially in South Asia and maybe Iraq.

The reason why the sectarian violence does not visit other Islamic countries is not because they are benevolent. It is just that they are intolerant and autocratic, while in South Asia, we have democracy and so people take advantage of it.

In Pakistan, because of democracy, the sects and schools of theology are allowed freedom. The same is not the case with the ME where dissension will invite harsh punishment including death, as in Saudi Arabia.

Indeed if all believed in the just one version, then one could have said Islam is one. If Islam is one, why the various interpretations?

I am merely asking since this is a conundrum that I have never understood, when people say Islam is one!

I find it so difficult to understand and so I sure would appreciate your explaining the same.

The Hymn words is what resounds in my quest:

TELL ME THE STORY SLOWLY, THAT I MAY TAKE IT IN
THAT WONDERFUL REDEMPTION, GOD'S REMEDY FOR SIN
TELL ME THE STORY OFTEN, FOR I FORGET SO SOON
THE EARLY DEW OF MORNING, HAS PASSED AWAY AT NOON

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

That is where the problem is--- everyone has a different version---does gang rape constitue a death sentence---does armed robbery constitute a death sentence---does murder and kidnap constitue a death sentence---then regardless what form of law it is---people want some kind of basic justice and the implementation of law and punishment for the crime committed in an expeditious manner.

People would care less what is the form of law----if somebody robbed you at gun point of your cell phone---your wife's jewellery---your motorcycle---now you have a hostage situation here as well and terrorist action as well---a capitol punishment for the crime---at fast track---so regardless if it is under the shariat law or under any other law----justice need to be enforced---that is what people want---shariat law is something that people want to hang their hat on---that is why they keep refering to it. They would care less even if it was the Queen's law as long as justice was provided.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Precisely.

Therefore, the claim of unity is not totally right in it pristine sense of Absolutism!

Claiming Absolutism is not consonant with the ground realities!

The fact that there is many interpretation indicates that the mind is free and not cloistered!

And this must be accepted and not denied, just to prove a point that is not real!

It is the time for introspection and not reinforce, with indignation, the desirable utopia!

 

[MastanKhan]

Salim,

That was deep----my brain had to do a couple of sommersaults and then a couple of backward flips---wow---you woke me up.

There was a person known as AMIR ABDUR REHMAN---the afghans know him well---they know him and remember him for the justice he provided to everyone---he was known for punishing hardcore criminals in a manner that stopped the crime wave right in its foot steps.

So, again, the islamic law, the sharia law, or any other law are laws to help a society be a civil society, keep control of the crime and punish the criminals in an expedious manner and provide security to its people---there are five pillars of islam---the sharia law or the islamic law is not one of the five pillars of islam----the sharia law is basically the law of the land of arabs----it is basically related to the biblical law---.

It is not the law that is weak----it is the person who is implementing the law that is weak---Musharraf and Ch Shujaat Hussain, Justice Iftikhar Ch---as much as I support them---they are very weak administrators-----Musharraf more so---he does not have the backbone in him to punish someone for heinious crimes. Look what Gen Zia did in the case of the blind girl who was raped by the landlord's son, then by the landlord, she got pregnant---the shariat court stated that there were no witnesses---so the culprits were set free and the girl was put in jail for fornication----I believe that it was Joe Lieberman the american senator who threatened Zia with severe action if that girl was not set free---now can the reader imagine how low down the character of people have slid---these mujahideen who would kill anyone without thinking twice if someone cursed on the prophet, nobody stood up to protect this blind victim. Where was the call of Jihad when it was needed the most. When a commmunity and a nation commits these kinds of sins and the screams of the victims are not heard---where the voice of the weakest of the weak is supprressed and the victims are sent jail---the ALLAH has HIS own promise of condemning that nation and its people till the time they change their ways.

 

[Flintlock]

Precisely.

Therefore, the claim of unity is not totally right in it pristine sense of Absolutism!

Claiming Absolutism is not consonant with the ground realities!

The fact that there is many interpretation indicates that the mind is free and not cloistered!

And this must be accepted and not denied, just to prove a point that is not real!

It is the time for introspection and not reinforce, with indignation, the desirable utopia!

Salim, the facts remain that Islam is supposed to be one religion, not ten.

There is very little acceptance of alternate interpretations within islamic communities.

This is the reason that I took the multiple interpretations as a negative.

Within Islam, such free thinking will lead to fragmentation and infighting.

Even Sunnis and Shias can't get along. Can you imagine twenty different schools being able to do so?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

SA,

All religions, as I understand, is one.

But when the temporal overtakes the spiritual, it continues to bifurcate and procreate into various streams and then becomes different taking different hues and interpretations for the temporal power quest, except from the original thought!

Yet all claim it is the same! And maybe so. But is becomes difficult to pin point total unison of thought.

And unfortunately, the temporal aspects starts quibbling and squabbling and finally ending up with violence.

 

[roadrunner]

Sunnis and Shias do generally get along actually

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

There will be different sects in islam but on the day of judgement, there will be only one that will be blessed. A common man pakistani or a common man muslim believes that it would be his or her sect that will see the benevolence of our LORD. Here is the problem---the problem lies with the understanding of the language of that message---the sects will not be the same as known to man like shia sunni wahabi ismaeli etc etc---but the sects will be those people who in their own form did the bidding of our LORD---we know very well that each one of us will have to answer for our deeds on the day of judgement----so then how is it possible for us to enforce our religious fundamental belief over the belief of someone else, when we, on our own don't know where our actions would lead us to, when we don't know what our destiny is---how can we become the judge and the jury on our own. The judge is going to be our LORD---the jury is going to be our acts of goodness or that of evil---simple---we donot have the benefit of a conffessional---we donot have somebody to take over our bad deeds---we will be left to rot in the hell holes of our making for our selfish acts or we will be flying high on the wings of selfless good deeds that we have managed to do against all odds.

Once the muslims realize that and are enlightened by the truth, then it does not make any difference if it is one sect or twenty---we will know that we our doing it is for our personal salvation and community communion is not going to work on judgement day.

There is no one flower in the garden that is the most beautiful. All the flowers in the garden have their own unique beauty, color and scent---different geographical areas have different kinds of flowers----it is the differences amongst us that makes us so unique and so attractive to the others---once we acknowledge and understand the fact that we are different, we have crossed that big hurdle that keeps us apart---once we learn to respect that diversity amongst us, we will find out how easy it is to live with people who are different than you.

There can be unity in diversity---we just need to find the common grounds.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Rather well said and eloquently soothing!

Indeed, good deeds are the sole mode for Salvation, be it in any religion!

Differences, without conflict, and without sectarian and religious power quest, is the sole answer for Peace amongst Mankind!