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Pakistanis Want Madrasa Reform

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Happens in India too!

I was under loadshedding an hour ago for 15 minutes!

Tell me how is Pakistan any different from India!

Sir,

My brother in law is in Karachi to attend a wedding, we used to have 2 hours of loadshedding in Karachi. Now its the other way around, he told me. :angry:
 
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What is loadshedding?

Cutting off the electric current on certain lines when the demand becomes greater than the supply is called loadshedding.

Currnet shortfall has surpassed 2500MW!! A result of mismanagement by Power Companies and negligence from GoP. :disagree:
 
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Sir,

My brother in law is in Karachi to attend a wedding, we used to have 2 hours of loadshedding in Karachi. Now its the other way around, he told me. :angry:

Neo,

Rapid industrialisation without matching electricity output is what is taking the toll in India.

That is why the nuclear deal with the US takes a new meaning, though there are people who feel that it too high a price to pay since they feel there are hidden riders to the deal!

However, the Communist opposition is bunk since it is merely a ideological baggage that is coming their way!
 
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The error you make here is to analyze the "opinions of Pakistanis" from a much more detailed perspective than they do themselves. Like I said, for the average Pakistani an Islamic system means one that provides "Justice and Equality"

This is actually a very crucial point which needs to be investigated and elaborated upon further in Islamic communities.

I think your observation is spot on. I too am fairly certain that the majority of Pakistanis and many other Muslims who want Sharia to be instituted (ranging from Africa to even certain areas of the UK and other parts of the west) do so without truly understanding it's complexity; rather they blindly entrust their faith system to provide a fantastically benevolent system of law and order which is supposed to be far superior to the corrupt and unjust one that currently exists. This is a far cry from how the western world perceives this issue. They somehow feel that these demands are made by entire masses of Koran memorizing Muslims who walk around with beards and bomb laden vests.

Nonetheless, this is a faulty notion propagated by the emotions and needs of the currently beleaguered Islamic societies. It is fairly obvious that corruption and injustice are actually byproducts of incompetence, apathy, lack of proper social development and poor/misplaced social values which cannot be fixed by merely solidifying/enforcing faith on a mass scale (I am aware that some may disagree with me strongly on this, but please hear me out). I agree that by pushing faith at the forefront, there is a short term feeling of solidarity and progress, but eventually that too fades away as the core pathology rears it's ugly head. This trend can be seen in many north African states (including Egypt), Afghanistan and Iran.

Now mind you, this phenomenon is in no ways limited to the Muslim world. Islam is merely the current hot topic. The same effect can be recreated by substituting religion with a radical nationalist/political ideology as seen in many nations of South America, the ex Soviet Union, India (1947-1991) and Cuba to name a few.

But coming back to the topic at hand, the point I'm trying to make is that People in the Islamic world who are trying to stabilize their societies need to be shown that the answer to their problems isn't religion, but good policy and governance that is first and foremost answerable to the immediate needs of its people. In fact, it is far better to keep religion in the private sphere and not let it metastasize into the efforts required to improve the conditions of their states.

Now I am fully aware that even initiating such a discussion will elicit a highly negative response. People will vociferously rebuke such ideas because they will be seen as an affront to core beliefs and values and/or outright blasphemy. But I really feel that this is a very important dialogue that needs to be started in the Islamic world (what ever that is).
 
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Energon,

That dialog is an important one, and I simply cannot see this desire for a "Shariah state" vanishing without knocking down the overriding concept of "Islam is a way of life" - or even perhaps redefining that concept as referring to ones "spiritual life". In another thread I mentioned that the "New Islam" needs to take hold, even if that means marginalizing the Sunni and Shia schools of thought – but I think the solution is a lot less revolutionary.

Interpretation of the Quran has focused far to long on the material, and that sounds counterintuitive but it is true – Scholars spend far too much time emphasizing the physical manifestations of faith –how important prayer 5 times a day is, what the correct ablution method is, how long your toenails should be (I had to listen to a Friday sermon on this in a mosque in Model Town Lahore last time I visited, and those familiar realize that it is hardly a sleepy backwater), what foot you should use to step into a mosque etc. My entire experience of an education in Islam has primarily focused on what I should or shouldn’t do, in the physical sense. Other examples being the focus on hallal and haram acts and food. Where is the spirituality in all of this?

One of the lessons that I have always carried with me was that “God judges you not for praying five times a day, but for what’s in your heart” – yet material expressions of faith is all we seem to focus on. The message of the Quran is understood so much better when taken as a spiritual guide, and I think that is where Sufi Islam got it right, and it is in that direction that Muslims need to move again – and discard this obsession with material faith.
 
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Hi,

Pakistan doesnot need shariah reform and niether do the pakistanis---the only thing they need is security and quick justice---once you have that, things would calm down.

How to do it---set of summary courts and fast track executions---any crime that is committed with at gun point should have a death sentence---gang rape should be capitol punishment---kidnap a caiptol offence---honour killings a capitol crime---highway robberies and home break in robberies a capitol crime----people want justice and they want quick justice---once you provide them with basic security---that is all they want---wanting of shariah by the pakistanis is just asking for basic human rights---once the law and order situation improves---the rest of the problems would go away.

We badly need friday after the prayer public executions.
 
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Hi,

Pakistan doesnot need shariah reform and niether do the pakistanis---the only thing they need is security and quick justice---once you have that, things would calm down.

How to do it---set of summary courts and fast track executions---any crime that is committed with at gun point should have a death sentence---gang rape should be capitol punishment---kidnap a caiptol offence---honour killings a capitol crime---highway robberies and home break in robberies a capitol crime----people want justice and they want quick justice---once you provide them with basic security---that is all they want---wanting of shariah by the pakistanis is just asking for basic human rights---once the law and order situation improves---the rest of the problems would go away.

We badly need friday after the prayer public executions.

The things you have mention, honestly I wish and pray to god that such things are done. This is the only way our people will learn, but and their is always a but is this actually a plan we can put into play and have it executed the way we want. I honestly doubt that our establishment or the government would actually support such measures. Another factor is that who would be willing to carry out such things, which in my opinion may be in humane and are totalitarian but are no doubt necessary. You see these plans are for the government to carry out and unfortunately in our government their are some people who would also be punished if such a thing ever were put into place, would these people let the plan get executed. Their are many factors and the only institution in my opinion of carrying out such a plan is the Army, only they can do it but I doubt they would even try it fearing that they may find themselves in an East Pakistan type of situation. Believe me I like your idea and it really should be executed, but you left out the punishment for a crime in our society that I think 70% of our population is guilty of and that is corruption.
 
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Agnostic, Energon and Mastan,

Very incisive posts.

I am not believer of religions, be it any, for reasons that I rather not discuss.

That apart, I have a view to project, if I may.

Rituals are what may appear to stranglehold a concept. But then, I think most rituals have scientific reasons behind them and such rituals, being irksome to implement at times, actually brings in discipline of the minds, something like the "rituals" called drills of the military!

From a civilian to a disciplined force is all because of drills or rituals, if you wish. And I agree that many think that the military chaps are dumb or crazies and it is interesting that when all fails, the nations depend on their dumb and crazy military to salvage the situation!
 
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Hi,

Pakistan doesnot need shariah reform and niether do the pakistanis---the only thing they need is security and quick justice---once you have that, things would calm down.

How to do it---set of summary courts and fast track executions---any crime that is committed with at gun point should have a death sentence---gang rape should be capitol punishment---kidnap a caiptol offence---honour killings a capitol crime---highway robberies and home break in robberies a capitol crime----people want justice and they want quick justice---once you provide them with basic security---that is all they want---wanting of shariah by the pakistanis is just asking for basic human rights---once the law and order situation improves---the rest of the problems would go away.

We badly need friday after the prayer public executions.

You probably might not have realised, but you have just supported increased feudalism and a society which will crumble at its slightest test.

Say take any punishment in them, what do you mean by "quick" justice? A justice system where the defendant will not have the time to put a proper defence? Imagine what will happen in as short time, the top guys will understand what this actually means and the next second, they will simply put their opponents on trials using conduits on baseless charges. These top guys in a few days come together and these are the feudal lords.

These type of quick fixes will not last long or go in any way in creating a modern development oriented society and will invariably need a dictatorship to continue.

There is no replacement for free and fair justice system, with proper checks and balances and which give good time for both of the defendent and accused to present their complete cases.
 
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Bhangra,

You are missing the the text of the post---islamic law provides for quick justice----these crimes are the crimes of violence--heinious crimes--. We are talking about stopping the radicals right in their foot steps---remember what Mullah fazalullah did in swat---a gang of kidnappers was caught and executed immediately---in order to turn the tide against extremism--some of the basic punishmenst will have to be enforced.
 
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Mastan,

I get your point.

What you mean is that the accuser, enforcer, prosecutor, defence counsel, judge cannot be the same, in the name of quick justice?!
 
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I am sorry, mastan, i could not get what you were saying

Are you saying
i) To counter extremism, you need to sometimes cut corners and you have to do it yourselves

or something else. Please eloborate what you mean by "quick"? Where are you going to cut corners?
i)giving time for defendants to prepare their defence?
ii)giving time for acussers to prepare their accusations
iii) time required for investigation
iv) time required for prosecution to give their proofs for defence
v)time required for prosecution
vi)givning prosecution their time to present the case
vii) giving time for defence to repudiate
viii) allow time for judge/jury to take a wholistic approach

or are you asking for simply brutal punishments for even minor crimes.
 
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