What's new

Pakistani women gives a great reply to India and Pakistani media

Dholavira was planned city, people there mastered the water management during Monsoon. Its a recently found major IVC site. Iran or Afghanistan don't have major IVC sites. This map is more specific.

indusmap.gif

It again show small part of Indian gujrat and Indian punjab were part of IVC, not the other way around. Im talking about main cities, the civilization was based in Pakistan.
 
.
Not really, there are more sites in India than have been uncovered in Pakistan. The Sarasvati is now belied to be the river around which most such sites are found which is why very few archaeologists call it the IVC anymore, preferring to stick with the convention of calling it after the first find -Harappa.

Reputation of anything coming out of Indian archaeologists is poor no one takes them seriously because of obvious religious and historical bias shown by them. Especially after BJP come to power started re writing Indian History.

Sarasvati river map, i dont know if its correct but if its then it mostly border Pakistan. Skeletons found in IVC sites in Pakistan again proves that they had nothing in common with 97% of Indians.

"One is on surer ground when one speaks of the Harappans themselves, for which there is in evidence a relatively large skeletal sample. One recognizes a biological continuum of many of their morphometric variables in the modern populations of Punjab and Sind."

The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective - Gregory L. Possehl - Google Libros


sarasvati-river-map.jpg
 
.
Correct me if I am wrong, if we look at a historical and biblical perspective, are Pakistanis the children Of Shem and Indians the children of Ham?

Does this mean from the new beginning of man after the great flood Pakistanis and Indians are from separate lineages?

Josephustable3.jpg


Based on Flavius Josephus' (ca. 100 AD) geographic identifications for the Sons of Noah.
Red=Japheth
Blue=Ham
Green=Shem

As you can see it does not mention India, this is because Flavius did not have the knowledge of the earth landmass shifts. Therefore modern scientific geographical findings indicate Ham's son Cush whose tribe migrated into India from the area on the map labelled "Chus" because of its close proximity to it at the time.
 
.
You referred to the vedas suggesting some sort of invasion. I said no such reading is accepted anymore. I gave you some points to consider. Other than that, of course what anyone says is no more than conjecture. There is a connection linguistically that hasn't yet been explained. Conjectures are all we have. No problems as long as we are clear on that.

I misspoke, I just skimmed through the post that you quoted & it turns out portion of my quoted post that you made bolded is incorrect. It's correct that the Vedas do not refer to such an invasion. I would modify that post, but there is no point doing that now. I referred to your view of missing non-Aryan names as conjecture due to known facts about the Sanskrit language loaning words from other languages. When it comes to the IVC, without decrypting their alphabets assuming they are alphabets, a lot of the details we are working are indeed conjecture. However, when it comes to those referring to themselves as Aryans, there are other sources available to us. The claims of Hellenic civilization of Aryans having links to Central Asians must also be accounted for, & there is little reason to believe that the claims made by Medians or the Hellenic people are lies, neither would they have a known reason to lie.

The Iranians did extend all the way to central asia, that was only changed by the Mongol invasions. Fair to see a central asian connection. In the Rg veda, the term "Aryan" is used very limitedly initially (referring to just one tribe) but later encompassing the landmass of "Aryavarta". The origin of the word is decidedly from Sanskrit(also Avestan) and that proves no connection elsewhere. The Rg veda speaks of no migration (that by itself does not prove that there was no migration) nor does any archaeologist of note agree to either a large scale invasion or migration. Genetic studies now seem to bear that out. Please understand, timing is everything for a central asian/Russian homeland theory. The river Sarasvati has been the biggest problem for such a theory & remains one even now.

I agree with portions of this paragraph except that I wan't to correct a couple of mistakes & a few more details. The Iranian tribes in Central Asia were in fact the proto-Indo-Iranians & are the originators of Sintashta culture in Central Asia. They are known for bronze metallurgy which was considerably superior to other nations around them at that time as far as I know. The Sanskrit word for Aryan is Arya & I think the Avestan word is Arian or something. Anyway, I agree with your point that the word initially referred to Indo-Aryan tribes before being applied in a cultural sense. I made a similar point earlier to another member that the word Aryan was later on used in the Sub-Continent in the cultural & linguistic sense of identity instead of a tribal one. That's similar to how the word Roman was used by all members of the Roman empire even if they weren't actually Latin.

As far as timings of the Aryan invasion theory are concerned, note that we aren't discussing Max Mueller's original hypothesis because that is entirely discredited. He came up with those dates based on his knowledge of the Bible & he tried hard to make sure that any date he came up with conformed to Biblical texts regarding the origins of the world. Since, I do not believe in the complete authenticity of the Bible, I have little reason to believe in any of the dates that he suggested such as 1500 BCE being the year of the Aryan invasion. The Sarasvati river dried up around the year 1900 BCE, so his dates are proven incorrect by that itself. When I speak of the Aryan invasion, what I am referring to is a period of migrations from Central Asia combined with some clashes. It does not imply that the Aryans came as a horde to the Indus except that they migrated in stages.

As I said, any conjecture is possible but that is all there is. What we do know is that there was no large scale changes between Harappan & post Harappan skeleton structure.

Yeah, the skulls of the IVC people according to some sources I have referred to in the past were Caucasoid. There is another theory I read previously that the Harappans themselves could be pre-Aryan Indo-European tribes, & their language could be some sort of lost Indo-European language. In any case, while there isn't much of a change in skeletal structure, there is a significant change in the civilization's culture. Consider the hypothesis that if the Indo-Aryans originated in the Indus, how did they forget the Harappan script? Why was Sanskrit initially an unwritten language if the civilization had continued among the same people? It doesn't make any sense unless we consider some external influence.

Yes we can & we must. Need to remember that the Avesta does speak primarily of Eastern Iran only and does show knowledge of parts of the Indian subcontinent (Hapta Handu). It knows nothing of western Iran. Please also remember that the Avesta is generally held to be younger than the Rg veda, the language itself places its proximity to the later parts of the Rg veda.

True to the connection between Sanskrit & Avestan, true to knowing nothing much about the Harappans. Everything else is conjecture. The time line offered up for any migration/invasion does not yet work & certainly does not pass the Sarasvati test.

Yes, the Avestan scriptures are aware of regions in the Indus. I already pointed that out through some sources in my previous post. Ignore the Sarasvati test if you are basing your dates on Max Mueller's theory of the Aryan invasion because I have already clarified that his dates are incorrect. The fact remains that in order for the Indo-European language Sanskrit to exist in the Sub-Continent, there must have been some form of contact with Indo-Europeans or in this case the branch of proto-Indo-Iranians. History already proves of Vedic contact with Indo-Iranians, & the early Indo-Aryans at this point do seem to be related people in the cultural & linguistic sense.

Not my point though I have heard people make it. Good question & we have to agree that there is no answer. Yet.

There won't be a definite answer regarding the Harappans unless their script is decrypted, there is only so much archaeological evidence can provide us.

Not necessarily. Studies seem to point out that all Indians are a mixture of two ancient groups the ANI & the ASI, only varying in the percentage of the mixture. Studies also seem to indicate the ANI presence in the sub continent by 40000 BCE(ASI -60000BCE). Difficult from that to surmise a more recent migration, something that every major archaeologist has dismissed.

Please point me towards the source of those studies if available. In any case here are other genetic studies that point to Eurasian & Central Asian mixture among the upper castes.

Ethnic India: A Genomic View, With Special Reference to Peopling and Structure

We report a comprehensive statistical analysis of data on 58 DNA markers (mitochondrial [mt], Y-chromosomal, and autosomal) and sequence data of the mtHVS1 from a large number of ethnically diverse populations of India. Our results provide genomic evidence that (1) there is an underlying unity of female lineages in India, indicating that the initial number of female settlers may have been small; (2) the tribal and the caste populations are highly differentiated; (3) the Austro-Asiatic tribals are the earliest settlers in India, providing support to one anthropological hypothesis while refuting some others; (4) a major wave of humans entered India through the northeast; (5) the Tibeto-Burman tribals share considerable genetic commonalities with the Austro-Asiatic tribals, supporting the hypothesis that they may have shared a common habitat in southern China, but the two groups of tribals can be differentiated on the basis of Y-chromosomal haplotypes; (6) the Dravidian tribals were possibly widespread throughout India before the arrival of the Indo-European-speaking nomads, but retreated to southern India to avoid dominance; (7) formation of populations by fission that resulted in founder and drift effects have left their imprints on the genetic structures of contemporary populations; (8) the upper castes show closer genetic affinities with Central Asian populations, although those of southern India are more distant than those of northern India; (9) historical gene flow into India has contributed to a considerable obliteration of genetic histories of contemporary populations so that there is at present no clear congruence of genetic and geographical or sociocultural affinities.

This genetic study also points to another point that the earliest Indo-European settlers were mostly male & were thus forced to mate with local females resulting in mixture. This study actually confirms the arrival of Indo-European people.

Another source:

Brief communication: Allelic and haplotypic structure at the DRD2 locus among five North Indian caste populations.

However, no work has been previously published on DRD2 gene polymorphisms among North Indian populations. Thus, the present study attempts to understand the genetic structure of North Indian upper caste populations using the allele and haplotype frequencies and distribution patterns of the three TaqI sites of the DRD2 gene. Two hundred forty-six blood samples were collected from five upper caste populations of Himachal Pradesh (Brahmin, Rajput and Jat) and Delhi (Aggarwal and Sindhi), and analysis was performed using standard protocols. All three sites were found to be polymorphic in all five of the studied populations. Uniform allele frequency distribution patterns, low heterozygosity values, the sharing of five common haplotypes, and the absence of two of the eight possible haplotypes observed in this study suggest a genetic proximity among the selected populations. The results also indicate a major genetic contribution from Eurasia to North Indian upper castes, apart from the common genetic unity of Indian populations. The study also demonstrates a greater genetic inflow among North Indian caste populations than is observed among South Indian caste and tribal populations.

Keep in mind that these studies focus on India & I am not aware of them taking Pakistani ethnicities in to account. Yet they clearly make a point similar to my own. I have already mentioned the prevalence of the R1a haplogroup in my previous post. Combine this with the knowledge that Indo-European settlements have already been confirmed to exist in Andronovo, & they share similarities with Rig Vedic culture.

There are no racial differences (that's a widely discredited view), nor are differences in colour between North India & South India particularly notable, certainly not enough to warrant an across the board reference. The South is hotter, for longer; any colour difference can easily be explained on that score.

The existence of race isn't discredited & never has been conclusively discredited. Research on this topic is going on as we speak. Temperature does account for difference in skin tone, but race isn't simply about skin color. Skin color varies among members of the same race too such as the White race. Mediterranean whites for instance are slightly darker than let's say Germanics, yet they aren't a different race. Skull shape & bodily structure needs to be taken in to consideration & there is considerable evidence of the existence of race. Had race been all about skin color there would be no difference between an albino & a Caucasian. Southern India belongs to the Australoid group if I am not mistaken whereas the north west is mostly Caucasoid. In fact, the Indian Sub-Continent as a whole is pretty diverse racially, but we should leave that aside because it's not the subject of our discussion. It's already obvious that many ethnic communities in modern day India are indeed mixed.

I have seen that "evidence" Proves nothing at all. Evidence of what exactly? No noted archaeologist is yet to agree with that proposition.

You are right that ideological reasons have driven this debate but that is probably true of both sides. My arguments are primarily evidence based & have no ideological pinning. If anything s proved one way or the other, I'm perfectly okay with it.

Not really. Just a bunch of conjectures without any real evidence. The "Swastika" is known widely, proves nothing by itself. In any case the dating offered does not match & there remains no proof of such a migration. Plenty of mythological stories which hold parallels in Indo-European cultures but that does not in itself prove the direction of transference. The Rg veda still remains the oldest known source of the people of the Indo-European language group. & it speaks neither of migration nor does it indicate any familiarity of lands outside of the sub-continent.

Evidence of the similarities between the Andronovo & Indo-Aryan culture. However, there is also evidence of proto-Turkic & proto-Mongol groups existing in Andronovo alongside Indo-Europeans. Bettany Hughes is I believe an English historian & Gennady Zdanovich is a Russian archaeologist & there is no need to doubt their credibility, neither is their discovery a fraud if that's what you are implying.

Yes, ideological reasons do motivate the arguments but those against the foreign origins of Indo-Aryans generally have an extreme hatred of British colonialism. This itself leads many of them to reject an idea like that ferociously. Ideological warfare also clouds arguments related to race, but then again these aren't the main points of our discussion.

I have provided you with genetic evidence, & there are more studies below. The Aryan cities discovered in Central Asia as per the previous article show remarkable cultural similarities to Indo-Aryan culture described in the Vedas. It's not just about Swastikas or mythological stories. The Vedas not referring to regions outside the Sub-Continent means nothing, & at this point we need to consider the amount of modification or corruption that may have occurred to the ancient text. King Cyrus & other Persian kings were aware of the Aryans residing in the eastern regions of Afghanistan. Arab Semitic sources also refer to Japheth as the father of Indo-Europeans.

More studies below:

Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced
the origins of India's caste system


A new study has revealed that Indians belonging to higher castes are genetically closer to Europeans than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are closer to those of Asians.

The study compared genetic markers—located on the Y chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA—between 265 Indian men of various castes and 750 African, Asian, European and other Indian men. To broaden the study, 40 markers from chromosomes 1 to 22 were analyzed from more than 600 individuals from different castes and continents. The comparison of the markers among these groups confirmed that genetic similarities to Europeans increased as caste rank increased.

The study, led by Michael Bamshad of the University of Utah, in Salt Lake City, and his colleagues, is reported to be the most comprehensive genetic analysis to date of the impact of European migrations on the structure and origin of the current Indian population. The article appears in the current issue of Genome Research.

Bamshad's team found that Y chromosomes from the Brahmin and Kshatriya closely resembled European Y chromosomes rather than Asian Y chromosomes. The Y chromosomes from the lower castes bore more similarities to the Asian Y chromosome. The mitochondrial DNA showed the same pattern.

The authors believe their results support the notion that Europeans who migrated into India between 3,000 and 8,000 years ago may have merged with or imposed their social structure on the native northern Indians and placed themselves into the highest castes.

Analysis of the paternally transmitted Y chromosome among Indians in general indicated that the Y chromosome had a more European flavor. Maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA among Indians is more Asian than European. This suggests that the Europeans who entered India were predominantly male.

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank.

However, 20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank.

Shared Indo-European languages (i.e., Hindi and most European languages) suggested to linguists of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries that contemporary Hindu Indians are descendants of primarily West Eurasians who migrated from Europe, the Near East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus 3000–8000 years ago (Poliakov 1974; Renfrew 1989a,b). These nomadic migrants may have consolidated their power by admixing with native Dravidic-speaking (e.g., Telugu) proto-Asian populations who controlled regional access to land, labor, and resources (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994), and subsequently established the Hindu caste hierarchy to legitimize and maintain this power (Poliakov 1974; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). It is plausible that these West Eurasian immigrants also appointed themselves to predominantly castes of higher rank. However, archaeological evidence of the diffusion of material culture from Western Eurasia into India has been limited (Shaffer 1982). Therefore, information on the genetic relationships of Indians to Europeans and Asians could contribute substantially to understanding the origins of Indian populations.

This should be more than enough evidence of Indo-European migration to the Sub-Continent. Notice something in all these studies, the majority of the Aryan lineages are predominantly male instead of female. The variation between male & female lineages is quite high, & that would lead to an interesting conclusion. If the Aryans were native to the Indus, where are their women? Why are the overwhelming majority of the lineages male? The most logical conclusion must be their initial arrival would have been predominantly male & they would have little choice other than to marry the local females of the Indus.

Evidence from the origins of Sanskrit as an Indo-European language based on a research conducted by Sir William Jones points to similarity between ancient Greek & Latin.

Below is what he had to say:

The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong, indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists: there is a similar reason, though not quite so forcible, for supposing that both the Gothick & the Celtick, though blended with a very different idiom, had the same origin with the Sanskrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family, if this were the place for discussing any question concerning the antiquities of Persia. [William Jones, 1786]

I think more than enough genetic, linguistic, cultural, & historical references have been provided for the Indo-Aryan arrival. It was definitely not the invasion suggested by Max Mueller, but genetic studies verify the point that the Indo-Aryans had a foreign origin. Genes couldn't possibly be wrong & there is no longer a reason to question the Indo-Aryans existence as a unique people apart from their mixture with indigenous women in the north western region of the Sub-Continent.
 
.
The Vedic Aryans themselves weren't a race. They were a group of Indo-European tribes, & those collective tribes originally constituted a race. By their description, they were fair skinned, good looking, tall, & well built people. There are multiple tribes mentioned in the Vedic scriptures, such as Ikshvaku, Ayu, & the Alina people, etc. The Indus Valley Civilization was already destroyed with its population being severely reduced by climatic conditions according to modern accounts. You seem to have a wrong idea of the term "Aryan Invasion". Aryan invasion does not mean that massive hordes just attacked out of nowhere & shook the whole Sub-Continent. It was most likely a minor invasion in the beginning as described in the Vedic scriptures themselves, & after that period the Indo-Aryan tribes migrated in groups towards the Indus. Based on my readings, it seems more likely that their arrival was a combination of invasions & migrations.

Archaeological finds of chariots maybe few for now, but that itself isn't enough to discredit the invasion. The fact that the Aryans are associated with horses & chariots is a flawed analogy because the Harappans were aware of horses. The Vedic people did not discriminate between the kind of equus animals used to draw chariots, & that they used other equus animals besides horses is consistent with archaeological findings as far as I know. As for wheels, the Harappans themselves were aware of them as known through their symbolism & the Vedic tribes knew of them as well. A lack of archaeological findings of wheels is discredited by the fact that the concept of the wheel dates back to the pre-Aryan period. Another important point to note is that at the moment our knowledge of both the Aryans & particularly the Harappans is severely lacking due to our failure at decrypting the Indus script. By the way, there is evidence of regular horses being used by Aryans, & the horse burial style is similar to that described in the Vedas. I will add some interesting information related to this topic & the overall subject of the Indo-Aryans towards the end.

By the way, excavation of some Indus Valley sites shows evidence of large scale massacres & killings. Many scholars have considered that itself to be proof of the Aryan invasion. Similarly, I have also read accounts that challenge the authenticity of the Vedas today, at this point we do not know how much of the Vedas were corrupted. Remember that the Vedas is to Aryans as the Pentateuch is to the Children of Israel, it isn't too far fetched to assume that both have been corrupted over generations. Sometimes I myself get the feeling that certain dates or stories presented in the Vedas seem extremely exaggerated, including the stories referring to the Gods aiding Aryan conquests. My advice would be to not consider the Vedas as authentic as the Quran. Another factor to take in to consideration is that, what reason do the Vedas have to lie about the conquest carried out by fair skinned people? If it had not taken place, why would the people of that time come up with such a story?

Speaking of cultural continuity, the Vedic Aryans adopted many of the customs & traditions of the Harappan people, & to some extent managed to corrupt their own cultures over time. A similar thing occurred when the Persians & Medians arrived to the Iranian plateau & were influenced by Semitic cultures. Remember, the Aryans were initially nomadic tribes, & even the Sanskrit language at that point was unwritten. Other civilizations such as the Greeks adopted & modified the scripts developed by others such as the Phoenicians. Sanskrit is the oldest surviving Indo-European language in existence, how do you explain its existence in the Sub-Continent knowing that the only other related language called Avestan was spoken in the Iranian plateau? Similarly, its other sister Indo-European languages were spoken in Europe, what were they doing there & how did Sanskrit arrive in the Sub-Continent if no ancient Indo-European people once came to the Sub-Continent? The fact is that all sister languages were originally sprouted from a group of related people, similar to case of Arabic, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc.

I have already mentioned the similarity between the Aryan & Greek Pantheon. The Persians & Medians themselves are historically known to have referred to the Aryans of the Indus. Alexander the Great or should I say the Hellenic people knew about them as well. The Sanskrit language & Aryan culture is Indo-European. One important point that I want to make here is that many people hate the Aryan invasion theory because of ideological reasons, they feel it causes divisions & is a remnant of British colonialism. I am strongly against that view, the truth will remain the truth regardless of how much someone wishes to deny it.

Let's move on to genetic evidence. As I recall the haplogroup R1a is prevalent in most Pakistani people, particularly in the northern regions. That same haplogroup & its branches are present in some regions of Eastern Europe, Central Asia, etc. In some ways, this proves their migration from Central Asia.

Map of Haplogroup R1a of Y-DNA

That is genetic evidence of the existence of the Indo-Aryan people. So far cultural, linguistic, historical, & genetic evidence point to their existence. Let me bring up the subject of race in this discussion. It is pointless to assume that the only difference between the Vedic people & the indigenous people is skin color. Race is not just about skin color, but takes in to consideration other phenotypes such as skull shape, body structure, etc. Race does exist, & that itself is evidence of the difference between the various ethnic groups in the Sub-Continent.

Finally, here is an article about unearthed Aryan cities that finally manages to change our perception of history. This new evidence points to the existence of the historical homeland of the Aryans called Andronovo & proves that the references present in the Vedas of the Aryan invasion were indeed accurate.

I have quoted some relevant portions of the article below.

Unearthed Aryan cities rewrite history

I think this should be more than enough evidence that a group of Indo-European tribes that referred to themselves as Aryans did indeed settle in the Indus, & they spoke their own Indo-European language called Sanskrit. ;) :D

I never brought up the Europeans, but the fact remains that some Indo-European tribes in Andronovo migrated towards Europe as well.

Below is another link I just discovered. I didn't get time to go through it, but I will post it anyway.

Recent Archeological Finds Confirming Vedic History

@p(-)0ENiX

Very humbly and sincerely, please understand that Vedic people are the ones who believed in Vedas, starting from Rig Veda. And Rig Veda describes the Aryans as a people who were the noble ones amongst the lot and do not describe them as a race or a tribe or any separate and distinct entity. Yes there are many many tribes that have been mentioned in the scriptures but Aryans have been identified as the noble ones. The IVC existed from 7500 BC in Mehrgarh to 3350-1900 BC in Harappa, whereas most historians believe that the Rig Veda was written evolved around 1200 BC and in written format came up around 400 BC - though there are variations in the dates and Hindus believe that Rig Veda evolved around 3500 BC. The Indian Hindu version is generally scoffed at well known historians.

You state that there was no big invasion and the Rig Veda mentions small invasion – can you please quote a reference to this as I have not read about it. When you also state that they migrated in small numbers over a period of time, you are transgressing into Aryan Migration Theory. This theory is different than Aryan Invasion Theory and is a separate discussion. What I would like to highlight is that there is no archeological and historical evidence that there was any war that the Meluhha fought. The people of Indus Valley Civilization have been archeologically and historically recorded to be highly peaceful and civilized lot and that they were the original people of this land and not some foreigners that invaded from far away land. And also, that these people were distinctly different than the people of Gangetic plains and therefore not Indians in any capacity.

There were no archeological finds of any horse or any chariot in Harappa or Mohenjodaro or even in IVC sites that lay in present day India. Some time ago an Indian by the name of NS Rajaram manipulated an old partially IVC seal through computer generation and displayed a horse, which it was not. The famous Michael Witzel and comparative historian Steve Farmer and many others including Indians tore it to shreds and exposed for all to see how Hindutva Brigade Indians can go to any length to manipulate the archeology and history to propagate their own stance. Yes, the wheels have been discovered in many IVC sites, but none attached to a chariot and in the absence of a horse a chariot can not be pulled – certainly not by a cow for obvious reasons. Chariot needs speed being a military machine of the old era and the cows etc can not provide the kind of speed needed to drive the chariot for the purpose it was built.

Horse sacrifice and its burial has been described in the Rig Veda but no such horse grave has been identified in any IVC site. This clearly means that amongst many many other reasons, Rig Veda was written much after the fading out of IVC and that IVC was never a Vedic civilization in the first place. Also the Rig Veda describes rural culture whereas the IVC was based on urban environment havingcities large enough to accommodate between 50,000 to 70,000 people.

I agree the Vedic culture did follow certain aspects related to IVC. The foremost being the monotheism which clearly reflects in the earliest scriptures. This however does not mean that all the Vedic people were of IVC origin, which they were not.

The similarities between old civilizations do exist. For example swastika which is a Hindu religious symbol was also discovered about 7000 years ago in Europe and in South America as well in later times. The genetics, if conforms to the selective time period whence the Aryans supposedly invaded or migrated in the lands of Meluhha, I would tend to agree with you. However, genetics does not prove per-se that the admix took place during or after the supposed Aryan invasions. I do agree that the admix of large majority of Pakistani people is more akin to Central Asian, Iranian and Turkic or Indo-Europeans genes. Did this change take place after the supposed Aryan invasion – the studies that I have read do not state that. What is stated however is that the Pakistani (Meluhhan) and Indian admix is completely different having a limited identical format with Indians, probably due to last over 1000 years of interaction.

About the archeological discoveries in Central Asia that you talk about are generally known as the Bactria complex. There are some who believe that these are akin to IVC but majority of archeologists and historians identify these more with Persian archeology than the IVC.

A very interesting discussion. Thank you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
A very interesting discussion. Thank you.

You are welcome. I agree that our discussion has been interesting so far, & most of the answers to the points you have raised are present in posts #135 & #184.

I have provided all sorts of evidence for an Indo-Aryan migration, not Max Mueller's Aryan Invasion. That evidence originates from genetic, cultural, linguistic, & historical sources. Pay attention to the genetic studies in the posts that I mentioned, they clearly refer to Indo-European mixture among the Brahmis & Kshatriyas. What's even more interesting is that the majority of these lineages are male. The archaeological discoveries in Central Asia point to similarities between Vedic culture specifically.

It will soon become obvious that Indo-Aryans were a group of Indo-European tribes, & they are the ancestors of the vast majority of people in the north western & to some extent northern regions of the Sub-Continent.

By the way some theories suggest that onagers were used to drive chariots as in the case of Sumeria until being replaced by regular horses which are obviously faster & stronger. No one ever spoke of cows being used to drive chariots. :lol:

Something similar to a chariot, probably a cart can be seen in the picture here. Those artifacts are from the Indus Valley Civilization.

Anyway, I am getting tired of typing out so much information.

Dear Please Read following authentic books and you will know how how Islam was spread.
Chach Nama
Tarikh-i-Yamini
Tazjiyat-ul-Amsar wa Tajriyat ul Asar
Tuzk-i-Timuri
'Baburnama

Most Muslims have naturally studied Islam, & our well aware of their religion's history & laws.

Correct me if I am wrong, if we look at a historical and biblical perspective, are Pakistanis the children Of Shem and Indians the children of Ham?

Well bro, Flavius Josephus is generally considered to be a good historian or scholar, but that diagram is wrong. No linguistic, genetic, cultural, or archaeological evidence points to the existence of indigenous Semitic people on the Indus. Even after the arrival of Islam, very few modern day Pakistanis have Semitic ancestry, & most of them are too mixed with the locals for that ancestry to even matter.

Flavius Joseph classified the Median or in general the original Indo-Iranian/Aryan people as the descendants of Madai; the son of Japheth, & the grandson of Noah. Islamic tradition is also aware of the existence of Noah's 3 sons known in the order of their birth as Shem, Ham, & Japheth.

There is the possibility that some people in modern day India, such as the Australoid ethnic groups descend from black Africans, but I am not too sure about that. Some other members might be able to answer that portion of your question.
 
.
Our concept/definition of patriotism

You are patriot indian and loyal to india if you hate everything pakistani (be it music, people, politicans, art/media, cricketers, language etc). You just dont have to say anything positive for pakistan

You are Proud pakistani if you hate all indian people irrespective of what they feel about pakistan. You should hate those indians as well who keep no animosity or hatred feeling for pakistan/pakistani to prove that you are real patriot

and i hate this approach ..now dont bash me for it. I only hate those who hate me, my country and my religion for no valid reason irrespective of which nationality they belong
 
.
Reputation of anything coming out of Indian archaeologists is poor no one takes them seriously because of obvious religious and historical bias shown by them. Especially after BJP come to power started re writing Indian History.

Sarasvati river map, i dont know if its correct but if its then it mostly border Pakistan. Skeletons found in IVC sites in Pakistan again proves that they had nothing in common with 97% of Indians.

Bordering Pakistan maybe but largely in India. Using your argument that it has nothing in common with 9% of Indians would also hold true of Pakistan. The archaeologists I spoke of were not only of Indian origin, most call it Harappan civilisation now.
 
.
The claims of Hellenic civilization of Aryans having links to Central Asians must also be accounted for, & there is little reason to believe that the claims made by Medians or the Hellenic people are lies, neither would they have a known reason to lie.

I'm unaware of any other civilisation other than the Indian/Iranian calling themselves Aryan. In any case such a link to central asia does not by itself mean that it was the point of origin.



As far as timings of the Aryan invasion theory are concerned, note that we aren't discussing Max Mueller's original hypothesis because that is entirely discredited. He came up with those dates based on his knowledge of the Bible & he tried hard to make sure that any date he came up with conformed to Biblical texts regarding the origins of the world. Since, I do not believe in the complete authenticity of the Bible, I have little reason to believe in any of the dates that he suggested such as 1500 BCE being the year of the Aryan invasion. The Sarasvati river dried up around the year 1900 BCE, so his dates are proven incorrect by that itself. When I speak of the Aryan invasion, what I am referring to is a period of migrations from Central Asia combined with some clashes. It does not imply that the Aryans came as a horde to the Indus except that they migrated in stages.


The problem of the Sarasvati is important. You have pointed out a date of 1900 BCE, that date & another pointing to 3900 BCE are commonly used(links available on this forum). Ether way, since the Rg veda speaks of the Sarasvati in full flow & even at the time of the Mahabharata, the Sarasvati is mentioned though as largely being diminished, any date for the Rg veda is then pushed back to about mid 3rd millenia BCE(assuming the date of drying out as 1900 BCE). A migration would then have to have happened even earlier. That runs into problems for the dating of every other known Indo-European people.The earliest mentions of the Iranians historically is in the 9th century BCE(Assyrian sources). The rest of Indo-European family have dates that simply does not stand a 3rd-4th millenia BCE expansion into their homelands. Important because the existing linguistic proposal for any version of the AIT acknowledges that the Indo-Iranians are the last to leave their supposed original homeland in South Russia. That simply cannot work which is why every proponent of the AIT(whatever version) tries their best not to get the Rg vedic Aryans in place before 1500 BCE.


History already proves of Vedic contact with Indo-Iranians, & the early Indo-Aryans at this point do seem to be related people in the cultural & linguistic sense.

Very much related. If you look at Rg vedic aryans & the Iranians & read their compositions, it is very clear that they are speaking of the same thing but from opposite sides. It does bear remembering though that while the Avesta is aware of parts of the sub continent, the Rg veda is unaware of Iran or any other lands outside the sub continent. Also interesting that the language of the Avesta bears striking similarity to later parts of the Rg veda, not the beginning as would be required if a separation of people happened before the Rg veda was composed.



Please point me towards the source of those studies if available. In any case here are other genetic studies that point to Eurasian & Central Asian mixture among the upper castes.

Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia

Many studies exist that show very little genetic difference even among castes. Also valid to show mixture with other people if ANI is similar. Does not explain dating conundrum though.This of course is an ongoing exercise & the full picture may be clear only in due course.





The existence of race isn't discredited & never has been conclusively discredited. Research on this topic is going on as we speak. Temperature does account for difference in skin tone, but race isn't simply about skin color. Skin color varies among members of the same race too such as the White race. Mediterranean whites for instance are slightly darker than let's say Germanics, yet they aren't a different race. Skull shape & bodily structure needs to be taken in to consideration & there is considerable evidence of the existence of race. Had race been all about skin color there would be no difference between an albino & a Caucasian. Southern India belongs to the Australoid group if I am not mistaken whereas the north west is mostly Caucasoid. In fact, the Indian Sub-Continent as a whole is pretty diverse racially, but we should leave that aside because it's not the subject of our discussion. It's already obvious that many ethnic communities in modern day India are indeed mixed.

South Indians are not part of the Australoid group as a whole, some individual tribes are but that number is insignificant when taken as a whole. Nobody now argues that South Indians are a different race & is largely accepted that S.Indians are Caucasoid.Nothing has surfaced to contradict this.





Evidence of the similarities between the Andronovo & Indo-Aryan culture. However, there is also evidence of proto-Turkic & proto-Mongol groups existing in Andronovo alongside Indo-Europeans. Bettany Hughes is I believe an English historian & Gennady Zdanovich is a Russian archaeologist & there is no need to doubt their credibility, neither is their discovery a fraud if that's what you are implying.

Not implying fraud, just that a connection is not very clear. By what standards to they call that "Aryan"? It is circular reasoning, believe in the AIT & then call everything found as proof of that. Dating runs into the same problem as before, they can't have "Aryans" in India before the 2nd millenia.

Yes, ideological reasons do motivate the arguments but those against the foreign origins of Indo-Aryans generally have an extreme hatred of British colonialism. This itself leads many of them to reject an idea like that ferociously. Ideological warfare also clouds arguments related to race, but then again these aren't the main points of our discussion.

You are right but the evidence against any invasion/migration is largely secular & has the support of archaeologists. Regardless of motive, proof does not exist except in the linguistic plane. There have likely been numerous migrations, at different times, but there is simply nothing available to prove a migration at the supposed time of the Rg veda. I have seen many dismiss arguments against the AIT because of the supposed leanings of the person rejecting it but very few are willing to discuss the substance behind it. I'm not suggesting that the AIT is completely discountable, only that there is almost no evidence backing it. A linguistic connection exists but that is all there is.

I have provided you with genetic evidence, & there are more studies below. The Aryan cities discovered in Central Asia as per the previous article show remarkable cultural similarities to Indo-Aryan culture described in the Vedas. It's not just about Swastikas or mythological stories. The Vedas not referring to regions outside the Sub-Continent means nothing, & at this point we need to consider the amount of modification or corruption that may have occurred to the ancient text. King Cyrus & other Persian kings were aware of the Aryans residing in the eastern regions of Afghanistan. Arab Semitic sources also refer to Japheth as the father of Indo-Europeans.

There are no "Aryan" cities anywhere, only those that people find convenient labeling as such. As I have pointed before, myths do show some connection but direction of transference isn't proven. Contrary to your assertion, it is hugely important that the Rg veda speaks of no other land nor of any migration. This is the oldest composition of any Indo European speaking people & they remembered plenty & considered it important to pass it on for millenia. It would be very difficult to believe that they decided to remember suddenly only after coming to the sub continent & that they they forgot every other memory. Also important that no "Dravidian" memory exists of any such invasion either. Too fantastic, don't you think? In any case, the dating conundrum remains & until that is explained, all we have on the AIT front is a mere clutching of straws.


This should be more than enough evidence of Indo-European migration to the Sub-Continent.

There isn't. Hence the debate. The Rg veda speaks of settled tribes, not interchangeable ones.



I think more than enough genetic, linguistic, cultural, & historical references have been provided for the Indo-Aryan arrival. It was definitely not the invasion suggested by Max Mueller, but genetic studies verify the point that the Indo-Aryans had a foreign origin. Genes couldn't possibly be wrong & there is no longer a reason to question the Indo-Aryans existence as a unique people apart from their mixture with indigenous women in the north western region of the Sub-Continent.


That's a good point except that he was not discussing ANI-ASI. After all genetics "doesn't lie". Cultural, historical, archaeological evidence simply does not exist. The fact that ANI gene is found in all the population of India, including South India(varying degrees) questions that theory substantially.
 
.
Bordering Pakistan maybe but largely in India. Using your argument that it has nothing in common with 9% of Indians would also hold true of Pakistan. The archaeologists I spoke of were not only of Indian origin, most call it Harappan civilisation now.

Its bordering Pakistan, and look at part in sindh. It got well in to Sindh while in India is just near Pakistan border. The think is we dont deny that we have common culture and language with 3% of Indians who are Punjabis and Kashmiris.
 
.
It again show small part of Indian gujrat and Indian punjab were part of IVC, not the other way around. Im talking about main cities, the civilization was based in Pakistan.

India shared a large part of Indus valley civilization with many key settlements.
 
. . .
Its bordering Pakistan, and look at part in sindh. It got well in to Sindh while in India is just near Pakistan border. The think is we dont deny that we have common culture and language with 3% of Indians who are Punjabis and Kashmiris.

It doesn't matter that it is close to the Pakistani border, it is still the choice of Indians whether they want to share in it. Just like most Indians would imagine Delhi, just like many others have a connection to some place of worship thousands of kms away. Cultural inheritance is a funny thing, people don't have to ask permission. Many here identify with someone from a different land because of his religion over people from this land. That is simply how it is. Sarasvati is one of the most sacred river for many in India. To suggest that they do not share the cultural inheritance is plain silly. In any case, no one is asking for permission.
 
.
@p(-)0ENiX

And Rig Veda describes the Aryans as a people who were the noble ones amongst the lot and do not describe them as a race or a tribe or any separate and distinct entity.

Not correct. The Rg veda speaks of "Aryans" in references only to the Puru tribe and more specifically a sub-tribe of the Purus - the Bharatas. The Rg veda itself is primarily a book on the Puru-Bharatas & other tribes are incidentally mentioned.


Yes there are many many tribes that have been mentioned in the scriptures but Aryans have been identified as the noble ones. The IVC existed from 7500 BC in Mehrgarh to 3350-1900 BC in Harappa, whereas most historians believe that the Rig Veda was written evolved around 1200 BC and in written format came up around 400 BC - though there are variations in the dates and Hindus believe that Rig Veda evolved around 3500 BC. The Indian Hindu version is generally scoffed at well known historians.

That was the point being made earlier. In the Rg veda, the primary river, spoken of as being in full flow, was the Sarasvati. That river dried up, depending on which source you believe, dried up by the end of the 3rd millenium BCE/start of the 2nd millenium BCE or earlier. That makes dating the Rg veda after that to be extremely questionable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom