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Pakistani troops fire on intruding U.S. choppers

US is getting bolder. The first few insidents the US did not fire back, but todays news is little troubling because US actually fired back at the Pakistanie soldiers.

If i have a prediction to this incident they will be more forceful next time around.

One I think this incident is being overplayed (as is often the case) or has even been cooked up in order to make Zardari look tough with the Americans.
The Americans have their hands full and can't afford yet Another war with a country it is supposed to be at peace with. Also it would complicate the supply situation with Afghan.

If the Americans respond, it tends to be overkill and that would upset the applecart.

The border needs to be sealed and anyone crossing it from Afghanistan should only do it at a border crossing with a passport. Anyone else should be shot on sight. Frankly letting moronic tribals go across the border is like poking a lion with a stick and expecting it not to be pissed off. Those uneducated fools are putting the country at risk and should be stamped upon hard.
 
every thing has been started since the kiddnapping , of afghan consulate.
its is very up setting for US ! also no ,one knows , does that afghan official was an spy of CIA.
any way US is getting desperate, for sure.
 
One I think this incident is being overplayed (as is often the case) or has even been cooked up in order to make Zardari look tough with the Americans.
The Americans have their hands full and can't afford yet Another war with a country it is supposed to be at peace with. Also it would complicate the supply situation with Afghan.

If the Americans respond, it tends to be overkill and that would upset the applecart.

The border needs to be sealed and anyone crossing it from Afghanistan should only do it at a border crossing with a passport. Anyone else should be shot on sight. Frankly letting moronic tribals go across the border is like poking a lion with a stick and expecting it not to be pissed off. Those uneducated fools are putting the country at risk and should be stamped upon hard.


Closing the borders from both sided would be the ultimate solution for the incursions of Americans. Then the question would be are both sides capable?

And in this solutions the pakistanies soldiers would be more strung out, but it would start the road to stabilty indefinitly.
 
I remember in the 50s and 60s Pakistan got military and economic aid, put when the time came USA stopped vital supplies to Pakistan during the 65 war and instead helped India. The story was repeated in 71. Pakistan was a friend during the 80s anti soviet campaign in Afghanistan, but as soon as that was over, we were hit with the Pressler Ammendment sanctions for years. Even getting battery packs for F16s was impossible.

Jis kay tum dost huay, us ka dushman asman kyun ho (or to that effect).

As for Pakistan, we all know that most EU countries and USA largely blame Pakistan for most of the terrorism in the world. Even the AFghan situation is seen as elements from Pakistan stoking up the violence, or in fact initiating it, where as others claim it is people from within the establishment that are exporting terrorism.

Any casual observer of media and offical pronouncements in western countries like USA, Germany, UK, France, etc. can hardly miss the constant Pakistan bashing. Pakistan is seen as the main progenitor of terrorism. Being an Afghani, Egyptian or even Syrian doesnt hold the same connotations as being Pakistani.

Many, including members of the Democratic Pary in the States, have openly called for Pakistan to be attacked and bombed, instead of Iraq or Afghanistan. Listen to the Real CNN channel, which is broadcast only in American and not around the world, and you will see what I mean (i wont even mention fox news).

The fact of the matter is, there is already a groundswell of opinion in political, military, intellectual circles and popular perception, that Pakistan is one of the Roots of this evil called Terrorism.

If we show any sign of weakness and meekness, like Saddam's Iraq did prior to the second invasion ( bombings left to happen in the no fly zones in the south and north), we are done for it. Take the other approach. Offense is the best defense in this case.

May God protect us.
 
A little mentioned report came out a couple of weeks ago.
USA has agreed in principal for military supplies to be allowed to Afghanistan via it's northern border. A new bridge was built last year linking AFghanistan and Tajikistan, increasing road trade exponentially. However, USA has already started shifting supplies from the North, thus giving them another supply route. They also have use of an airbase in Uzbekistan since March of this year again, after they had been kicked out a few years ago.

Pakistan has recently lost its strategic position as being the supply route, and reconnaisance center for us Air Force. That is why they have initiated this escalation, knowing full well we do not have those bargaining chips anymore.
 
A little mentioned report came out a couple of weeks ago.
USA has agreed in principal for military supplies to be allowed to Afghanistan via it's northern border. A new bridge was built last year linking AFghanistan and Tajikistan, increasing road trade exponentially. However, USA has already started shifting supplies from the North, thus giving them another supply route. They also have use of an airbase in Uzbekistan since March of this year again, after they had been kicked out a few years ago.

Pakistan has recently lost its strategic position as being the supply route, and reconnaisance center for us Air Force. That is why they have initiated this escalation, knowing full well we do not have those bargaining chips anymore.
yes a couple of days ago cnn was saying that the us wants no more pakistan as it,s supply route and it is searching for alternative routes
this is an evidence of the america,s bad intentions against pakistan:tsk:
can they use that famous port being constructed by ,indians, in iran ????
 
The border isn't well demarcated, given that they received small arms fire (i.e distance possibly could not have been too large), the Pakistani SF's may have considered them to have crossed into the Pakistani side.




Given the Geo-political situation & the U.S/NATO Allies discomfort @ Pakistan's nuclear program for quiet some times now along with their prolonged excuses regarding the fear they often express regarding it your above statement stands as simply WEAK.
 
Pakistan has recently lost its strategic position as being the supply route, and reconnaisance center for us Air Force. .

no wayy.. thats not the case.. US still depends on pakistan for logistical support! in fact more then 80% of US military supply pass through pakistan as we speak..
 
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Pakistani, US troops exchange fire

WASHINGTON: Pakistani and US troops exchanged fire along the Pakistani-Afghan border on Thursday after two US military helicopters came under fire, a US military spokesman said.

Rear Admiral Gregory Smith said Pakistani soldiers at a border checkpoint were observed firing on two US OH-58 Kiowa helicopters covering a patrol of Afghan and US troops about a mile and a half inside AFghanistan.

"The ground forces then fired into the hillside nearby that checkpoint, gained their attention, which worked," Smith told AFP.

"Unfortunately, though, the Pak unit decided to shoot down a hillside at our ground forces. Our ground forces returned fire."

Meanwhile, Pakistan's president Asif Ali Zardari has warned that his country cannot allow its territory to "be violated by our friends" - a reference to unilateral US attacks on extremists hiding in Pakistan.

President Zardari told world leaders on Thursday that such attacks actually strengthen the terrorists that the United States and others are trying to destroy.

Zardari said Pakistan's "people wonder whether we stand alone" in the fight against extremism.

Pakistani, US troops exchange fire-USA-World-The Times of India
 
Originally Posted by dr.rehan View Post
1. Cut their food and oil supply and everything else that comes from PK + electricity that is sent to US and NATO bases on expense of the Pak people....
2. Shoot em down 5-6 times, and use the excuse tactics "sorry, we thought it was the terrorists"..
3. Spend some billions of dollars on Media worldwide.
4. Contact all Pak community leaders worldwide to gather economical and media support.
5. Join forces with IRAN, And all tribes that are against Us.
6. Stop the f... war on terror, and start fighting the KAFIR's.
7. Get Russia and china signedup on our side.
8. Use Nuke deterrent and get some long range missiles.
9. Join Iran to blow the hell out of ISRAELian M.F!
10. Give Nuke's to all Muslim countries for $$$ and use it to buy best goods from all over.
11. India may try to take advantage of this, so line up 100k forces along the boarder and
50-60 short and long range missiles with WARHEADs targeting every military, airbase,
major city in India, and give them no excuse. If they try as much cross 1m over our
boarder, Fire em all. That should keep them from taking any sort of advantage of
this situation. They will not dare to think of taking advantage. Desperate times demand
desperate measures..
12. Point Some short/long range missiles with warheads on NATO and US bases in
Afghanistan + Karzai's residens, iraq + all their naval vessels in Pak, indian and gulf
region + Israel (Agar marre ge to Sabb ko le karr marre ge)...
13. Grow some balls.. War has started what ever way you look at it. Some will say doing
all this is declaration of war, and a war we cant win. But if we do all i have mentioned
in this list, do you think any country in the world would want to start a war with
PAKISTAN?
14. We need a Strong Leader. Eliminate all old, and get new Strong leaders.
15. Love and support your country no matter what.

With such measures, i am sure no FORCE on earth would Seriously Attack Pakistan.

*und maro Pain *odo ki...

Rehan

I take it that you safely live in the west and wish Pakistan to be reduced into another Zimbabwe. Keep it up and your wish will come true.

Regards

:crazy:

I don't know what kind of storie you have made up and played inn your mind. But i am from FSD. Yes i am out of the country at times also, but that does not change my way of thinking, as it clearly has done in your case.

Zimbabwe is not my cup of tea. I take your disagreement constructively, but then again, where has your approach lead Pakistan Today? Since you don't like my way, i guess you agree to whats going today and clear it all under the carpet as step on it as nothing has happened?

One or 2 more leaders like you, and that my friend will lead to what we all know as Zimbabwe Today!. So why dont you go back to being what you do best "Always Neutral"..

Rehan
 
Pak troops fire at intruding US choppers
Friday, September 26, 2008
Fleeing copters, APC target posts, Nato denies border violation; Zardari says warning flares fired
By Malik Mumtaz & Mushtaq Yusufzai

MIRAMSHAH/ PESHAWAR: Pakistani security forces on Thursday afternoon fired at US gunship helicopters after they flew over Spinkhwara village near Saidgai in North Waziristan Agency (NWA). The Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) also confirmed the firing at the US choppers.

A spokesman for the ISPR told The News that two US helicopters intruded into the Pakistani territory at around 3:30 pm from Afghanistan’s Khost province in the Saidgai area near Gulam Khan in the NWA.

“When the two helicopters passed over our border post and were well within the Pakistani territory, the security forces deployed at the border fired warning shots,” the spokesman explained, adding the shots forced the helicopters to flee to Afghanistan. However, he said the choppers while retreating fired back on the security forces.

The official said the matter had been reported to the International Security Assistance Forces (ISAF) headquarters. He said the issue was being resolved through coordination and communication channel between the Pakistan Army and the ISAF.

Military and tribal sources told The News from the border town of Saidgai that two US choppers were seen flying over border villages for some time after crossing into the Pakistani territory on Thursday afternoon.

“Our troops fired at the choppers and forced them to fly back to Afghanistan,” said Ziarat Khan, a resident of Saidgai village along the border with Afghanistan. He also said the fleeing US gunship helicopters fired back at the Pakistani security forces but there were no details of losses to the troops.

Pakistani troops did not want to shoot down the choppers “which they could have done easily”, Ziarat noted.The sources said the US choppers were flying towards Miramshah, 16 kilometres off the border.

Also, military sources told The News that Pakistani security forces later fired at both the US choppers when they again flew over Pakistani border village Gorveek in the NWA. The sources said the choppers were forced to return to Afghanistan but later an armoured personnel carrier (APC) came to the border and fired at Pakistani posts. “They fired with heavy and light weapons on our troops but right now I have no knowledge of any losses,” said a military official based in Miramshah, but desired not to be named.

AFP adds: “Two helicopters crossed into our territory in Ghulam Khan area. They passed over our checkpost so our troops fired warning shots,” chief military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas told AFP.

In New York, President Asif Ali Zardari said Pakistan’s military was firing “flares” to warn Nato helicopters about the exact location of Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan.

Zardari, who was beginning a meeting with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, contradicted Nato accounts that its helicopters had come under “small arms fire” inside Afghan territory near the Pakistan border.

“You mean the flares,” Zardari replied when asked about the Nato accounts, adding, “It’s to make sure they do not cross the border line.“Sometimes the border is so mixed that they don’t realise they have crossed the border.”

As reporters filed out of the room, Rice told Zardari: “The border is very, very unclear, I know.”Earlier, the coalition forces in Afghanistan said in a statement that Pakistani troops had fired at Nato-led helicopters operating in eastern Afghanistan, adding that there was no damage or casualties.

The ISAF stressed that the helicopters had not crossed into the Pakistani airspace.“ISAF helicopters received small-arms fire from a Pakistan military checkpoint along the border near Tanai district, Khost, September 25 while conducting routine operations in Afghanistan,” it said in a statement.

The statement added: “ISAF forces and the Pakistani military are working together to resolve the matter.”Meanwhile, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the incident was “an unfortunate misunderstanding”.

Pak troops fire at intruding US choppers
 
First NATO had complained of firing by Pakistani post on its choppers in Afghanistan and now pentagon denies that its helis were fired upon :undecided:


U.S. denies copters attacked by Pakistan crossed border



ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- The Pakistani military fired warning shots at two helicopters that crossed from Afghanistan into Pakistan, and the helicopters returned fire before retreating, according to a Pakistani military statement.

Officials with the Pentagon and NATO's International Security Assistance Force, however, said the copters never entered Pakistan. U.S. officials also denied the helicopters fired back.
Even though the Pakistani military said it fired "anticipatory warning shots" and NATO used the term "small-arms fire," Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said the military fired only flares.
Appearing before reporters in New York with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Zardari was asked why the Pakistani military was firing on NATO helicopters.
"They are flares," he replied, "just to make sure that they know they crossed the border line"
Asked if such warnings will continue, he said, "Sometimes the border is so mixed that they don't realize that they crossed the border."
Off camera, Rice said "the border is very unclear" and "inhospitable."
A U.S. official familiar with details of the incident said the helicopters were U.S. Army OH-58D Kiowa Warriors that were part of the ISAF mission in Afghanistan.
The pilots reported that shots were fired by forces in Pakistani military uniforms at a building where a Pakistani flag was flying, the official said.
"When the helicopters passed over our border post and were well within Pakistani territory, our own security forces fired anticipatory warning shots," according to the Pakistani military. "On this, the helicopters returned fire and flew back."
The U.S. official familiar with the incident and a senior defense official at the Pentagon said the helicopter crews did not fire back.
"We are confident our helicopters were on the Afghan side of the border, and we have no report they fired back," the defense official said.
The ISAF said in a statement that two of its helicopters were fired upon, but said the helicopters never entered Pakistan. The statement did not say whether the U.S. helicopters returned fire.


"ISAF helicopters received small-arms fire from a Pakistan military checkpoint along the border near Tanai district, Khowst," the news release said. "At no time did ISAF helicopters cross into Pakistani airspace."
There were no reports of injuries or damage. Both the ISAF and Pakistani military said they are working to resolve the issue.
The helicopters were operating about a kilometer from the border, the U.S. official familiar with the details said.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman also said the helicopters never left Afghanistan.

"The Pakistanis need to provide the U.S. a reason why this took place," Whitman said.:lol:

Several months ago, President Bush authorized U.S. special forces to carry out ground assaults inside Pakistan without seeking Islamabad's permission, according to media reports.
Last week, Pakistani President Zardari said his country would not allow foreign nations to violate its sovereignty to pursue terrorists.
"We will not tolerate the violation of our sovereignty and territorial integrity by any power in the name of combating terrorism," the president said in his first speech to Parliament.
His remark followed a similar declaration from Pakistan's military chief, Gen. Parvez Kayani, who said Pakistan's territorial integrity "will be defended at all cost, and no external force is allowed to conduct operations."
The senior defense official said the Pentagon is trying to determine if

Pakistan is acting on those statements.
"What we don't know if this was just a case of trigger-happy members of the Frontier corps," said the senior defense official at the Pentagon, "or whether, in fact, the Pakistani military does have orders to fire on our helicopters."

The U.S. official familiar with the incident said top U.S. commanders will be talking to the Pakistani military about the incident to determine if there was a misunderstanding and to ensure it doesn't happen again.
The official said this is the first verified incident of Pakistani forces firing on U.S. troops. There were at least two reports out of Pakistan in recent days about similar incidents, but the United States has said neither of those reports is true.

Jane's Military Database describes the Kiowa Warrior as a two-seat "scout and attack" helicopter. Globalsecurity.org says, "It is designed to operate autonomously at standoff ranges providing armed reconnaissance, command and control, and target acquisition and designation under day/night, hot and adverse weather conditions."
 
U.S., Pakistan exchange shots at volatile border
U.S., Pakistan exchange shots at volatile border - CNN.com

U.S. and Pakistani troops exchanged fire Thursday along the Pakistani-Afghan border minutes after the Pakistani military fired shots at two American helicopters that were providing cover for the troops, a U.S. military spokesman said.

The U.S. Army OH-58D Kiowas, part of NATO's International Security Assistance Force mission in Afghanistan, were patrolling the Pakistani-Afghan border when the Pakistani military fired on them, NATO and U.S. officials said.

The Pakistani military said the fire was warning shots, and President Asif Ali Zardari said it was flares. Both Zardari and the Pakistani military said the helicopters had crossed into Pakistani territory -- a charge U.S. officials denied.

Rear Adm. Greg Smith of U.S. Central Command said the helicopters were providing cover for a small U.S. military unit accompanying an Afghan border police unit on a routine patrol.

After the shots were fired at the helicopters, Smith told CNN, the U.S. troops fired "suppressing rounds" into a nearby hill to get the Pakistanis to stop. That prompted the Pakistani troops to stop firing at the helicopters and fire instead in the direction of the troops, he said. The U.S. troops then returned fire, Smith said.

No injuries were reported in the five-minute incident.

Smith and other U.S. officials said the helicopter crews did not fire back.

But the Pakistanis disagreed, asserting in a written statement that the helicopters "returned fire" after the initial shots were fired.

The helicopters passed over our border post and were well within Pakistan territory" at the time that "security forces fired anticipatory warning shots," the Pakistani statement said.

After the shots were fired, "the helicopters returned fire and flew back."

The Pakistani statement did not mention exchanging fire with ground troops and did not identify the shots as flares, as Zardari did in New York in an appearance with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

"They are flares," he said in response to a question asking why the Pakistani military was firing on NATO helicopters. "Just to make sure that they know they crossed the border line."

Asked if such warnings will continue, he replied, "Sometimes the border is so mixed that they don't realize that they crossed the border."

Rice, off camera, agreed that "the border is very unclear" and "inhospitable."

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman reiterated the United States' stance that the two helicopters were over Afghan territory. "The Pakistanis need to provide the U.S. a reason to why this took place," he said.

The ISAF issued a news release saying that "ISAF helicopters received small-arms fire from a Pakistan military checkpoint along the border near Tanai district, Khowst."

"At no time did ISAF helicopters cross into Pakistani airspace." The ISAF did not mention ground troops or say whether the helicopters returned fire.

Both the ISAF and Pakistani military said they are working to resolve the issue.

Last week, Zardari said Pakistan would not allow foreign nations to violate its sovereignty to pursue terrorists.

"We will not tolerate the violation of our sovereignty and territorial integrity by any power in the name of combating terrorism," he said in his first speech to Parliament as president.

His remark followed a similar declaration from Pakistan's military chief, Gen. Parvez Kayani, who said this month that Pakistan's territorial integrity "will be defended at all cost, and no external force is allowed to conduct operations."

A senior defense official in the Pentagon said the Pentagon is trying to determine the details of Thursday's incident.

"What we don't know if this was just a case of trigger-happy members of the Frontier Corps," the official said, "or whether in fact the Pakistani military does have orders to fire on our helicopters."

"We are confident our helicopters were on the Afghan side of the border, and we have no report they fired back," the official added.

Top U.S. commanders will be talking to the Pakistani military about the incident to determine if there was a misunderstanding and to ensure it doesn't happen again, a U.S. official familiar with details of the incident said.

The official said this is the first verified incident of U.S. troops being fired upon by Pakistani forces. There were at least two previous reports in recent days out of Pakistan about similar incidents, but the United States has said neither of those reports was true.
 
Hopefull better sense will prevail in this cat & mouse game which will benefit no one. it will further complicate matters & the focus of the PA from the Bajaur ops. as far as the "emotions" being displayed by our forum colleagues on this matter, i strongly suggest a tempering of the attitudes. ask anyone who has participated in war and he will let you know his feelings!
 
"We are confident our helicopters were on the Afghan side of the border,

They were also pretty confident that the target they bombed was not an FC post, despite Pakistan having exchanged information on the coordinates of the post with NATO several times.

I just don't buy the fact that the US wasn't in territorial violation - the Pakistani sde is pretty clear, the choppers went over the post, so that would imply the US was well within Pakistani territory.

That said, I do find it believable that the incident occurred on accident, since the border is unclear and mountainous.

All in all, the coordination and communication between the two sides is still pretty abysmal.
 

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