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Pakistani troops fire on intruding U.S. choppers

First NATO had complained of firing by Pakistani post on its choppers in Afghanistan and now pentagon denies that its helis were fired upon :undecided:
I told them not to put George Bush in charge of making up the stories!

They've lied so much that puncturing their story full of holes is just way too easy now.

Now they are using words like "Confident", which implies its just their gut feeling without concrete evidence. They are purposely using such words just in case tomorrow they are again proven wrong.
 
Originally Posted by dr.rehan View Post
1. Cut their food and oil supply and everything else that comes from PK + electricity that is sent to US and NATO bases on expense of the Pak people....
2. Shoot em down 5-6 times, and use the excuse tactics "sorry, we thought it was the terrorists"..
3. Spend some billions of dollars on Media worldwide.
4. Contact all Pak community leaders worldwide to gather economical and media support.
5. Join forces with IRAN, And all tribes that are against Us.
6. Stop the f... war on terror, and start fighting the KAFIR's.
7. Get Russia and china signedup on our side.
8. Use Nuke deterrent and get some long range missiles.
9. Join Iran to blow the hell out of ISRAELian M.F!
10. Give Nuke's to all Muslim countries for $$$ and use it to buy best goods from all over.
11. India may try to take advantage of this, so line up 100k forces along the boarder and
50-60 short and long range missiles with WARHEADs targeting every military, airbase,
major city in India, and give them no excuse. If they try as much cross 1m over our
boarder, Fire em all. That should keep them from taking any sort of advantage of
this situation. They will not dare to think of taking advantage. Desperate times demand
desperate measures..
12. Point Some short/long range missiles with warheads on NATO and US bases in
Afghanistan + Karzai's residens, iraq + all their naval vessels in Pak, indian and gulf
region + Israel (Agar marre ge to Sabb ko le karr marre ge)...
13. Grow some balls.. War has started what ever way you look at it. Some will say doing
all this is declaration of war, and a war we cant win. But if we do all i have mentioned
in this list, do you think any country in the world would want to start a war with
PAKISTAN?
14. We need a Strong Leader. Eliminate all old, and get new Strong leaders.
15. Love and support your country no matter what.

With such measures, i am sure no FORCE on earth would Seriously Attack Pakistan.

*und maro Pain *odo ki...

Rehan

With such measures Pakistan would in all probability cease to exist.

You are aware are you not that NATO has spent the past 60 years training to engage in a nuclear theatre in which a full scale nuclear deterrent capable of destroying mankind several times over was airborne 24 hours a day, 365 days a year for decades? We've moved on somewhat further since then.

To suggest in all earnestly therefore that Pakistan should engage even just a few of your points as a matter of policy (openly or covert) might one venture be part and parcel of the problems in play in Pakistan today, as opposed to anything even approaching a solution. Overly zealous.

This recent event of a border clash is serious enough that it warrants a NATO response. Note that previous events of arguablly more serious nature (which have resulted in deaths) has not progressed so far down this road. I am confident therefore that the border outpost did indeed open with trash fire on the Kiowas which of course would be covering nearby patrolling units, and that the resulting 5 minute exchange of "views" has been overly politicised. In some instances there was simply no case for Pakistan to answer, in this instance however there appears to be. None the less I imagine NATO will do the most appropiate thing for all concerns.

Despite peoples many open and obvious misgivings, as is completely evident from a few here, Pakistans and Americas goals and objectives remain very much the same. In no way does the poverty, corruption, lack of education, lack of control of state apparatus, food shortages, power blackouts or the many of the other myriad of problems in Pakistan today form part of any ones agenda. Watching whole regions of Pakistan being swept away and wrested from government control is a serious concern for all.

This current government therefore has a chance, and with continued support from all allied nations it might even succeed. This action however, particularly if continually repeated, does great damage to that. We can put it down to blue on blue exchange and treat appropriately, but unfortunately a great many media sources, analysts and pundits (some present company included) already picked it up to be classed as blue on red with Pakistan opening. Mistakes are made, and that's one of them.
 

By MUNIR AHMAD

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) — Pakistan warned U.S. troops not to intrude on its territory on Friday, a day after the two anti-terror allies traded fire along the volatile border with Afghanistan.

Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, in New York for the U.N. General Assembly, tempered the warning by praising U.S. support for his country as a "blessing." He spoke standing beside Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice after an meeting at the U.N. with foreign ministers of other major powers.

Pakistani government spokesman Akram Shaheedi urged U.S.-led coalition forces in Afghanistan "not to violate territorial sovereignty of Pakistan as it is counterproductive to the war on terror."

A five-minute clash on Thursday between Pakistani and American forces added to already heightened tensions at a time the United States is stepping up cross-border operations in a region known as a haven for Taliban and al-Qaida militants.

The clash — the first serious exchange with Pakistani forces acknowledged by the U.S. — follows several incidents that have angered many here: a deadly American commando raid into the tribal areas on Sept. 3 and the apparent crash of a U.S. spy drone this week.

The American cross-border operations could undermine support for the U.S.-Pakistani alliance in fighting terrorism and risk further destabilizing the country at a time when the new government was still trying to assert its authority, analysts say.

Zardari tried to downplay the clash, saying only warning flares were fired at foreign helicopters when they strayed into his country from Afghanistan.

U.S. and NATO military officials said the ground troops and helicopters were in Afghan territory.

The clash occurred as Zardari was in New York meeting with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Afghan President Hamid Karzai. He was to meet President Bush Friday.

"Just as we will not let Pakistan's territory to be used by terrorists for attacks against our people and our neighbors, we cannot allow our territory and our sovereignty to be violated by our friends," Zardari said Thursday. "Unilateral actions of great powers should not inflame the passions of allies."

Two American OH-58 reconnaissance helicopters, known as Kiowas, were on a routine patrol in the eastern Afghan province of Khost when they received small arms fire from a Pakistani border post, said Tech Sgt. Kevin Wallace, a U.S. military spokesman in Afghanistan. There was no damage to aircraft or crew.

U.S. Central Command spokesman Rear Adm. Greg Smith said the helicopters had been escorting U.S. troops and Afghan border police.

When the helicopters were fired on, the ground forces fired rounds meant not to hit the Pakistani troops, but "to make certain that they realized they should stop shooting," Smith said from Centcom headquarters in Florida.

The Pakistani forces fired back.

The joint patrol was moving about a mile from the border inside Afghanistan, with the helicopters above, Smith said.

The Pakistani military disputed the U.S. version, saying its troops fired warning shots when the two helicopters crossed over the border — and that the U.S. helicopters fired back.

"When the helicopters passed over our border post and were well within Pakistani territory, own security forces fires anticipatory warning shots. On this, the helicopters returned fire and flew back," a Pakistani military statement said.

In other developments Friday, three men blew themselves up in Pakistan's largest city Karachi. They were suspected of planning an attack on a "high-profile" target in the city, said Sindh police chief Babar Khattak. The police raided the house on a tip from a leader of an al-Qaida-linked militant group, Khattak said.

"Police definitely averted a big attack from happening in this city," he said.

Police seized at least 22 pounds of explosives, two suicide jackets, seven pistols and 12 hand grenades from the house. They also found the body of a man in handcuffs in the rubble of the house and was identified as a wealthy supplier of fuel and goods to U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, senior police official Aleem Jaffry told The Associated Press.

A bomb blast caused a train to derail in eastern Punjab province, killing four people and wounding 15 others.

Pakistan's top general, Maj. Gen. Tariq Khan, said the army will regain control the restive tribal area of Bajur that borders Afghanistan within "two to three months." The offensive began in August.

Associated Press writers Steve Graham in Islamabad, Pauline Jelinek in Washington and Matthew Lee in New York contributed to this report.
 
By Isambard Wilkinson in Tang Khatta
Last Updated: 5:11PM BST 26 Sep 2008

For the past six weeks Pakistani troops supported by helicopter gunships, tanks and heavy artillery have begun to drive Taliban militants out of the tribal area of Bajaur.

The action was visible as Cobra helicopters pounded positions outside the village of Tang Khatta, a short distance from Khar, Bajaur's main town, and ground troops fought an hour-long gun battle.

Militants have regularly attacked the village compounds with rockets since they were pushed out two weeks ago.

The sound of explosions and machine guns were audible from behind Tang Khatta's thick mud walls as soldiers traded fire with the Taliban across fields hemmed in by barren mountains.

The army claims it has killed over 1,000 militants in Bajaur, a place described by commanders as the "centre of gravity of the insurgency".

"The threat from Bajaur radiates in all directions," said Maj Gen Tariq Khan, the commanding officer of the Frontier Corps, a paramilitary force engaged in the bulk of counter-insurgency operations in the tribal areas.

"If we dismantle this here and destroy its leadership then 65 percent of militancy will be controlled. If they lose this, they lose everything."


Khar and its surroundings are deserted. Soldiers have taken over the area's numerous schools and nearly a third of Bajaur's one million people have fled the fighting.

At Tang Khatta militants took cover in fields of half-harvested maize, caves and dried-up ravines a mile away.

"I wish I could take you there but they are in the nullahs [ravines]," Colonel Javaid Baloch told a group of journalists taken to the village on a visit organised by the military.

But fighting did not all go the army's way. Three officers - one of whom lost both his legs - were seriously injured.

Pakistan reluctantly signed up to the American-led "war on terror" after the Sept 11 attacks and its army entered the forbidding terrain of the tribal areas at the end of 2001.

However, relations between Pakistan and America have been blighted by distrust. Washington objected to a series of peace deals that the Pakistani government, under the former military ruler Pervez Musharraf, struck with militants.

The frustration with Pakistan's inability or unwillingness to tackle militants has led to a spate of US missile strikes on Pakistani soil in recent months.

Following a US commando raid last month, the two sides have traded both accusations - and fire - over alleged American incursions into Pakistan.

Washington has expressed its approval for the Bajaur operation but analysts have asked why Islamabad allowed parts of the area to be governed by a Taliban parallel government.

Before the operation militants had launched over 60 attacks on paramilitary troops, cut off all main roads, set up training camps and assassinated a dozen tribal leaders.

The battle for Bajaur began only after 2,000-3,000 militants overran a paramilitary post at Loi Sam, which the military has not yet retaken.

"It was like putting your hand into a wasp's hive," said Maj Gen Khan.

Militants have dug into areas with fox-holes, tunnels and trenches and over 65 troops were killed and 200 wounded.

The Taliban have gathered reinforcements from the Waziristan tribal areas. Others are coming from Afghanistan.

"We caught 200 crossing the border with rocket launchers from Afghanistan," said Maj Gen Khan, who appeared angry at America's failure to control the frontier. "But there is no such effort to stop them".

-------------------------------------------------

If given a chance Pakistan surely can defeat militants but first US and NATO needs to stop territorial violations as they will further deteriorate the already volatile situation.
 
If given a chance Pakistan surely can defeat militants but first US and NATO needs to stop territorial violations as they will further deteriorate the already volatile situation.

I second that. We will inshallah win the battle and if US could stop being such a lousy bastard, we can do it even more quicker. They blame us all the time fact is that are not doing anything at all to stop the flow of terrorists into Pakistan from Afghanistan. To me it looks like they are enjoying the show because it seems they are certain that Pakistan will loose the battle and eventually will give us the opportunity to dine in.
It is the right time that we retaliated to the US intrusion and Zardari could get out of his kissing US *** attitude, we might be able to convince the americans to back off. Sometimes the best defence is to get offensive.
 

KHAR: As many as 873 militants have been killed in the ongoing Bajaur operation while 27 security men were martyred and 212 others injured.

This was stated by IG Frontier Corps Maj. Gen. Tariq Khan and Director General ISPR, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas in a briefing given to the local and foreign media here on Friday.

They said the militants’ had been strength had been weakened as a result of a “successful operation in Bajaur” and hoped the operation will be completed in the next one and a half month and the area will be completely cleared of the militants.

They said five top Al-Qaeda and Taliban commanders were among those killed in a month-long operation in Bajaur.

Reporters were flown by helicopter to Khar, the main town in restive Bajaur, for a briefing on the military operation launched in August against Islamist militants who had taken control of most of the region.

"This is a centre of gravity for the militants," Khan told journalists. "If they lose here they lose everything."

Of the five militant commanders killed, four appeared to be foreigners: Egyptian Abu Saeed Al-Masri; Abu Suleiman, an Arab; an Uzbek commander named Mullah Mansoor; and an Afghan commander called Manaras.

The fifth was a Pakistani commander named only Abdullah, a son of ageing hardline leader Maulvi Faqir Mohammad who is based in Bajaur and has close ties to Al-Qaeda second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri.

To a question, DG ISPR Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas said the operation will meet great success if intelligence from across the border could be shared.

----------------------------------

Now as Sir Icecold said, this is where NATO and US can help if they are serious in this war against militants.

If their objective is to destabilize Pakistan, then it is another story.
 
An accident waiting to happen
News Analysis

Saturday, September 27, 2008
By Farrukh Saleem

ISLAMABAD: Over the past few days, Pakistani soldiers have fired shots at two Nato helicopters; Pakistani troops have exchanged fire with the soldiers of Afghan National Army (ANA) and a US military drone crashed at the village of Jalal Khel in South Waziristan. On September 3, America's 4-year covert operation into Pakistani territory went overt when helicopter-borne US Navy SEALs raided three houses and killed some two-dozen villagers.

The United States Army has deployed Sikorsky Black Hawk helicopters for covert as well as overt incursions into Pakistan and the United States Air Force (USAF) is using MQ-1 Predator and MQ-9 Reaper unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). The Black Hawk is US Army's frontline air assault and air cavalry helicopter with a service ceiling of 19,000 feet (5,790m) and is thus not vulnerable to small arms fire. The Predator is a medium-altitude, long endurance UAV with a service ceiling of 25,000 feet (7,620m) and cannot be brought down through small arms or anti-aircraft apparatus currently in place on the Pak-Afghan border. The Reaper is a long-endurance, high-altitude, hunter-killer UAV with a ceiling of 50,000 feet (15km). In effect, none of America's killing machines can be brought down by whatever the tribesmen or Pakistani forces have at their command (Pakistan's most capable anti-aircraft artillery is deployed on the eastern border).

On September 10, COAS Gen Ashfaq Kayani said that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country would be defended at "all costs". On September 15, Pakistan Air Force's (PAF), Lockheed-made, F-16 Fighting Falcons were sighted conducting air patrols in areas bordering Afghanistan. On September 23, President Asif Ali Zardari said that American incursions into Pakistan were a "violation of United Nations Charter". On September 25, Robert Gates, United States Secretary of Defence, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that in his view the Untied Nations Charter "allowed the US to act in self-defence against international terrorists in Pakistan if the government was unable, or unwilling to deal with them."

Rhetoric from the US as well as Pakistani political and military leadership is becoming more and more dangerous by the day. According to Strategic Forecasting Inc., a Texas-based private intelligence agency, "Pakistani forces fired upon US military helicopters along the Afghan-Pakistani border, the Pentagon confirmed Sept 25. However, a Pentagon spokesman denied Pakistani claims that the helicopters had entered Pakistani airspace. Islamabad later claimed that only "warning shots" were fired and later insisted that only signal flares were fired to warn the helicopters off. This incident -- almost a textbook border dispute, complete with each side claiming it was in the right place in an area where the precise border often is not clear, and subsequent revisions of statements -- highlights the dangers of tensions as high as they are between Pakistan and the United States."

An accident is waiting to happen: Pakistani forces might get aggressive and shot down an American helicopter not yet within Pakistan's borders or American forces may get overly aggressive in their 'hot pursuit', 'hit and withdraw' or 'search and destroy' missions well within Pakistan's territory.
 
as BISMARCK said "the nation which surrenders its soverignty for security,deserves neither soverignty nor security"
actually this whole thing did not start now its carefully planned by the americans,it has its roots in the red mosque incident,where almost a deal was in place and they were ready to surrender according to chaudhry shujat who was in the mosque for negotiations and the last one out as the orders from then president MUSHARAF came throw for a full blown military action,and the aftermath of that is still being faced by us b4 that we had like 2 0r 3 bombings(PROBABLY RAA) in a year,well after the incident u guys can do the math.the thing is americans were suspicious of PAKISTANI ISI as to its playing both sides ,and the army was not interested in a war that was not theirs,so americans had to make us think that we have a common enemy,thus that brings us to jamiah hafsa where things were going to settle peacefully and they were going to give in ,but at last moment what happned that musharaf undermined his own political leaders who had almost struck a truce with the red mosque leaders,most of the people think and in my opinion definately "a call from washington" was the reason.
well!it was the greatest mistake in our history as i beleive it and many of u who don't will soon beleive it,after that suicide attacks on our military increased like hell!the whole tribal areas openly or covertly increased support for the so called taliban,and now america has succeded in proving it to us that those people are our enemies too and it is in our intrest to fight them ,well sadly this all started from redmosque if that event would have not happened many of deadly bombings in pakistan would never have happened,so bottom line is we have been puppets in the hands of americans and they have pulled off the one of the oldest tactic "DIVIDE AND RULE" and zardari is nothing he is just a mole which when america will like will get rid off,I wish bibi was still here whatever she was that apart she could have handled the americans well diplomatically,unlike this playboy zardari he does'nt even look like a president,no wonder bibi was keeping him away from politics in dubai and i am dam sure he wanted a part in politics ,and he haD something to do with her assasination,well benazir will live on in our hearts like her father.
What to do next well i don't trust any of these leaders which are available to us all are connected to washington one way or the other who is the least connected does'nt matter,but way the things are going pakistan will be destroyed internally rather then externally bcuz we r fightimg someone else's war killing our own civilians,our soverignty is in question,our existence is in question.
So here is the picture,if we keep on fighting this so called "war on terror" we might end up in civilwar in some point in time,pashtoons standing up against fedration ,mqm rats will become nothing different then mukti bahni funded by india,BLA will rise up ,so in this anarchy history might repeat itself,remember east pakistan if u could what will happen if sepratists are created on every side of fedration literally.
The other side of the picture we stop this war on terror immediately withdraw all support for western troops in afghanistan,fedration reaches out to every area attacked during this war on terror and oppologise to the residents of the area and promise them it will never happen again and withdrawing all support of allied troops will be enough for them to believe that we mean it,ofcourse we will be threatend by the allied forces and they might attack us but we will stand united and we will stand shoulder to shoulder rather then dissapear into history killing our own country men,both ways is war as i said b4 internal fighting is a long term cancer which will eventually kill us all and the second point well u may call it suicide call but if we take our chances united we will have a chance like veitnam(bordered china),and in a previous comment in this thread i have mentioned the diplomatic war that we can play every thing is perfect right now to change direction diplomatically,the only thing lacking is the courage of our leaders,oh! and one more thing what happened in iran could happen here YES! i am talking abt people getting so frustrated that a islamic revolution could be also on its way.
SO any wayz guys thats the whole picture what happened and what could happen think abt it like chess predict all moves and what will get u a check .so lets pray for the best for pakistan,may ALLAH help our gr8 nation these are hard times for us may we succeed in overcoming these difficult times ,peace and out my pak bro's and sis,PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
 
We should have expanded the Durand Line and solidified this entire area years ago when they were having their low level civil war throughout the 90s. But since the Islamic world in general is excellent at sleeping while others are progressing, one can only expect haphazard calamity after calamity in the border region.
 
Spec ops raids into Pakistan halted

By Sean D. Naylor in Army Times of 27 September 2008
U.S. special operations forces have paused ground operations in Pakistan’s tribal areas, but military and civilian government officials differ over why the cross-border raids have been halted.

The issue of U.S. raids into the tribal areas was thrust into the international spotlight by a Sept. 3 raid in Angor Adda, in the South Waziristan tribal agency, by Navy SEALs working for a Joint Special Operations Command task force. (JSOC is the secretive military organization that oversees the military’s special mission units such as the Army’s 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta and the Navy’s Naval Special Warfare Development Group, or DevGru, also known as SEAL Team 6.)

“We have shown a willingness starting this year to pursue those kinds of missions,” said a Pentagon official. However, he said, after temporarily granting JSOC greater latitude to conduct cross-border missions, U.S. leaders had decided to again restrain the command, at least as far as raids using ground troops are concerned, to allow Pakistani forces to press home their attacks on militants in the tribal areas.

“We are now working with the Pakistanis to make sure that those type of ground-type insertions do not happen, at least for a period of time to give them an opportunity to do what they claim they are desiring to do,” the Pentagon official said, adding that this did not apply to air strikes launched from unmanned aerial vehicles at targets inside the tribal areas.

Although JSOC is the organization tasked, along with the Central Intelligence Agency, with finding and killing or capturing al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, the Sept. 3 raid was not aimed at “a huge type of target,” the Pentagon official said. “There were just consistent problems in that area that had come to a point where there was significant evidence that there was complicity on the part of the [Pakistani military’s] Frontier Corps and others in allowing repetitive raids and activities to go on. And there was a firm desire to, one, send a message, and two, also establish any intelligence audit that could be established that would be useful to respond to a frequent question that we get from the other side of the border, which is, ‘Well, show us and tell us where the problem is, then we’ll deal with it.’”

But a U.S. government official closely involved with policy in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region said the military had underestimated the Pakistani response and was reconsidering its options.

The official’s comments were echoed by a field grade special operations officer with Afghanistan experience. The Sept. 3 raid “was an opportunity to see how the new Pakistani government reacted,” the officer said. “If they didn’t do anything, they were just kind of fairly passive, like [former Pakistani President Pervez] Musharraf was … then we felt like, okay, we can slowly up the ante, we can do maybe some more of these ops. But the backlash that happened, and especially the backlash in the diplomatic channels, was pretty severe.”

The raid represented “a strategic miscalculation,” the U.S. government official said. “We did not fully appreciate the vehemence of the Pakistani response,” which included the Pakistan government’s implication that it was willing to cut the coalition’s supply lines through Pakistan. “I don’t think we really believed it was going to go to that level,” the government official said.

The military’s comments about the Sept. 3 raid sending a message represented a smokescreen, said the government official, who added that the mission “was meant to be the beginning of a campaign.” “We miscalculated, and now we’re trying to figure out how to walk the dog back. One way to do that is to say, ‘Oh well, we wanted to send a message; we’ve now sent that message, and so we’re going to not send it as much in the future, yet we’re still sort of leaving it on the table, because as we all know, we never admit to a mistake.’

“Once the Pakistanis started talking about closing down our supply routes, and actually demonstrated they could do it, once they started talking about shooting American helicopters, we obviously had to take seriously that maybe this [approach] was not going to be good enough,” the government official said. “We can’t sustain ourselves in Afghanistan without the Pakistani supply routes. At the end of the day, we had to not let our tactics get in the way of our strategy. … As much as it may be good to get some of these bad guys, we can’t do it at the expense of being able to sustain ourselves in Afghanistan, obviously.

“Senior uniformed people recognize that,” as do senior officials in the State Department and the intelligence agencies, the U.S. government official said. In the latter categories, the official said, “People are looking at this in terms of its propensity for destabilizing the situation in Pakistan and unifying all these disparate anti-this and anti-that elements into one anti-American element in Pakistan.”

“The raid got a lot more attention than they expected,” a Washington source in government said. “They do have to walk it back and go about it a different way, because obviously that didn’t work. … We can’t afford these backlashes every time a raid occurs.” However, the Washington source added, “I don’t think there’s been another strategic decision to back off.” Instead, JSOC would “go about it a different way.”

U.S. Central Command spokesman Rear Adm. Greg Smith declined to comment for this story.

Under questioning on Capitol Hill on Sept. 23, Defense Secretary Robert Gates did not deny that U.S. forces had made cross-border strikes.

“We will do what is necessary to protect our troops,” he said, acknowledging the Pentagon had been granted “authorities” for such action.
Into tribal areas

The Sept. 3 raid was not the first time JSOC forces have launched into the tribal areas. In the past, small JSOC elements have operated with the Pakistani Special Services Group in the tribal areas, and the special operations officer with Afghanistan experience said he was aware of “two or three” cross-border operations similar to the Angor Adda raid. “They have happened, but it was by no means a common occurrence,” he said.

However, said the government official closely involved with Afghanistan/Pakistan policy, JSOC “has been pushing hard for several years” to step up their raids into the tribal areas, said the U.S. government official closely involved with policy in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. JSOC’s argument has been “Give us greater latitude, we’ve got to hit where their sanctuaries are,” the official said.
“In the wake of the increased Taliban attacks we’ve seen over the last several months and the sense of frustration that we haven’t been more successful, their point of view has finally gained traction,” the government official said.

Two government sources identified the Taliban’s July 13 attack on a U.S. outpost in the Korengal valley as a turning point in the debate.

“Clearly we saw what happened in the Korengal valley as a watershed moment,” said the government official closely involved with policy in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. Together with the Taliban’s July 7 bombing of the Indian embassy and their Jan. 14 attack on the Serena hotel (both in Kabul city) and the June 13 escape of an estimated 900 inmates, including perhaps 400 Taliban from a Kandahar jail, the Korengal fight gave the impression that things were spinning out of control.

“Suddenly you have an American outpost — not Canadian or British or Dutch — that is almost overrun,” the official said.
Busier op tempo, more targets

The Sept. 3 raid into Pakistan is part of a heightened operational tempo for JSOC forces based in Afghanistan, several sources said. JSOC’s target list has expanded from the original “big three” of bin Laden, al-Zawahiri and Taliban leader Mullah Omar to a broader list that includes figures in the Taliban-allied network of Jalaluddin Haqqani and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar’s Hezb-i-Islami group (sometimes referred to as HiG by the U.S. military).

The U.S. government official involved with policy in the area described JSOC’s targets as fitting into two categories: the “big guys” with whom the U.S. has “unfinished business” and “those people that threaten us operationally and tactically on the ground right now.”

Several sources said the Sept. 3 raid appeared to have been aimed at the Haqqani network, along with some of its Uzbek allies.

“Because of the nature of those types of operations, there generally has to be — and in this case there was — an involvement of a foreign fighter element,” the Pentagon official said. “And the traditional ones in that area are the Uzbeks and the Chechens. Their interpenetration with Talibs in that area is the mixture that is most at play.”

JSOC is “targeting a range of actors, but one of the big ones is Haqqani,” said a civilian expert on Afghanistan, adding that targeting the Haqqani network represented “payback” for its alleged involvement in the Indian embassy bombing, the hotel attack in Kabul and an assassination attempt against Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

The U.S. government official closely involved with policy in the region agreed that U.S. forces were targeting Haqqani as “payback,” but also because the network — now mostly controlled by Haqqani’s son, Sirajuddin — “is seen as … the low-hanging fruit,” because its bases in Waziristan are more easily accessible than the mountainous terrain of the Bajaur tribal agency where Hekmatyar’s fighters operate.

“None of the JSOC activity has been going on in the areas around the sanctuary for Mullah Omar’s Taliban,” which is located in and around the Pakistani city of Quetta, the civilian expert on Afghanistan said. “It’s all happening in the tribal areas… The target has not been the Omar Taliban.”

The government official closely involved with policy in the region agreed that the change in the rules of engagement that allowed JSOC to operate more freely across the border applied only to the tribal areas, and not to “Pakistan proper.”
As a result, he said “The cross-border activity, by virtue of where these target sets are located, favors actions against HiG and against the Haqqani network, and not against the Quetta Shura [of Mullah Omar].”

A senior military official said that the JSOC task force was using a similar approach along the border to that which served JSOC so well in Iraq: a combination of technical and human intelligence driving multiple missions per night, with each target quickly exploited for intelligence that then prompts further missions.

But the Taliban are not standing still, according to the government official involved with policy in the region. “Both sides have taken the gloves off and are going at it hard,” the official said.

The increased pace of operations has come with a significant cost: Three DevGru SEALs have died in Afghanistan in recent weeks: Petty Officer 1st Class Joshua Harris, who drowned while crossing a river Aug. 30, and Senior Chief Petty Officer John Wayne Marcum and Chief Petty Officer (select) Jason Richard Freiwald, who both died Sept. 12 of injuries suffered in combat Sept. 11.

The two DevGru casualties who died Sept. 12 were killed “on the Afghan side of the border in one of those small, minor ambush-type things,” the Pentagon official said.

When JSOC forces cross the border into Pakistan, they do so only after receiving clearances from the highest levels of the U.S. government, sources said. However, exactly who has the authority to approve JSOC’s missions into Pakistan is shrouded in secrecy.

Asked at what level JSOC’s cross-border missions must be authorized, the Pentagon official said he knew the answer, but added, “I can’t talk to you about that, given the level of classification.” However, he said, the authority rested far above the JSOC task force commander in Afghanistan.

“It’s long been that way,” the Pentagon official said. “That’s not done in a cavalier [way] or without a very high level of authority. … Neither the aerial-type missions nor the ground-type missions, short of hot pursuit, which has some very finite restrictions on it, can take place without there being a high level of authority.”

The Washington source in government said the issue’s sensitivity was related to diplomacy. “There’s a very linear chain of command … but it can make things diplomatically stressful if these things are made public,” the source said.
“Even a missile strike requires the highest level of authority,” a special operations officer with Afghanistan experience said.

Asked who would have to sign off on a mission into Pakistan, he replied: “The president, no doubt in my mind. The president.” ++
 
>>>JSOC is “targeting a range of actors, but one of the big ones is Haqqani,” said a civilian expert on Afghanistan, adding that targeting the Haqqani network represented “payback” for its alleged involvement in the Indian embassy bombing, the hotel attack in Kabul and an assassination attempt against Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

Clearly US and Indian targets and no one intrests in Pakistan...

>>>The Washington source in government said the issue’s sensitivity was related to diplomacy. “There’s a very linear chain of command … but it can make things diplomatically stressful if these things are made public,” the source said.
“Even a missile strike requires the highest level of authority,” a special operations officer with Afghanistan experience said.
Asked who would have to sign off on a mission into Pakistan, he replied: “The president, no doubt in my mind. The president.”

Lying is part of politics since mankind start walking.
 
We should have expanded the Durand Line and solidified this entire area years ago when they were having their low level civil war throughout the 90s. But since the Islamic world in general is excellent at sleeping while others are progressing, one can only expect haphazard calamity after calamity in the border region.

Although I agree with your post , the problem is who to deal with on the Afghan side. Also the afghans will not stop barking about the Durand line till such time that we fence the border.Let this game end once and for all.!!!
Araz
 
I agree. Baitullah Mehsud isnt on the list, since he is clearly targeting Pakistan army and its people. I think we should also ask for the same clearance against the sanctuaries of Mehsud and BLA in afghanistan for attacking them. Then that would be fairer.:guns::usflag:
 
Look guys, first we blame the US for tagetting individuals in Pakistani territory, then we ***** that they do not target Baitullah - don't you see contradiction in that?

Baitullah is Pakistan's problem and has been for a while, yet he still draws breath and pollutes the world by exhaling - how long will PAKISTAN allow this happen?
 
I agree. Baitullah Mehsud isnt on the list, since he is clearly targeting Pakistan army and its people. I think we should also ask for the same clearance against the sanctuaries of Mehsud and BLA in afghanistan for attacking them. Then that would be fairer.:guns::usflag:

Yes, why do we have to listen to all this nonsense about Pakistan being the hub of insurgency when only about 10% of attacks are probably launched from FATA? Now 90% of the heroin in Pakistan is being pushed over the border by these SOBs and since they are unwilling to take those poppy fields out they should shut their traps, get out of the way and let the Pak army come into afghanistan and burn all the opium. Why is the pak govt sitting quietly and agreeing with the lie that the next attack on the US is going to come from FATA when the reality is that Pakistan has more heroin addicts than any country in the world and NATO is sitting on top of the poppy fields that supply the junkies! :angry:
 

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