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Pakistani troops feel West undervalues their war

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Pakistani troops feel West undervalues their war




KATHY GANNON Associated Press Published: March 8, 2012.




KALPANI BASE, Pakistan (AP) -- The wind was howling and the snow outside their bullet-pocked bunker lay knee-deep as the men of the 20th Lancer armored regiment bedded down for the night, nearly 2,500 meters (8,000 feet) up a mountain on one of the world's most inhospitable borders.

They cheered themselves up by singing songs. Their commander gazed at photos of his 4-year-old daughter on his computer. But as the men chatted, it became clear that they were feeling a bit underappreciated.

Why did the West accuse Pakistan of not pulling its weight in the war on terror? They asked. Hadn't large numbers of their comrades died at the hands of the Taliban? Why else were they in this hellish place if not to keep the Taliban at bay? "They say we aren't doing enough," said their commander, Capt. Imran Tanvir. "What more can we do?"

Pakistan has lost more than 3,000 soldiers in battles with Taliban since it deployed soldiers to its western border, more than all the foreign deaths in Afghanistan since 2001. Although it sees India to its east as its biggest military challenge, it regards its Afghan flank to the west as critical enough to warrant stationing 130,000 soldiers there.

The base called Kalpani is on the front line in the 10-year war against militant Islamists, a war that allies Pakistan with the U.S. and NATO in an uneasy, distrustful partnership. Pakistan feels scapegoated for the coalition's failures in Afghanistan. At the same time it is accused of playing a double game, fighting the militants it chooses to fight while giving others haven and logistical support for their actions in Afghanistan.

Last month the army took an unprecedented step, allowing an Associated Press writer and photographer to follow Pakistani troops on their front-line rounds for a glimpse inside its fight against militants in the Afghanistan-Pakistan theater.

The ghosts of British Empire linger over this wild stretch of northern Pakistan. The unit at Kalpani base comprises Lancers, a term dating back to the British dominion over south Asia which ended with partition into India and Pakistan in 1947. The Lancers' local headquarters are in a 19th century colonial mansion of marble pillars, ornately carved balconies and decaying gardens.

High above the mansion, reachable by a road that ends in snow drifts and then by walking for three hours, is Kalpani, its 46 men housed in bunkers facing Kunar Province in Afghanistan. The cement huts seem to perch precariously on the mountainside. The base was attacked two years ago by militants with rocket launchers and rifles. Four soldiers died.

At one point this area with its 37-kilometer (23-mile) stretch of the Afghan border was under a Taliban reign of terror. The militants would make police kneel on the road and behead them one by one, videotaping the murders. Eventually the army ran the Taliban out, suffering dozens of deaths. But that was not the end it. Last summer the militants were back, killing 21 border policemen in two locales.

The army, caught by surprise, hurriedly set up eight more bases.

"We went forward, we went up and now we are manning the international border in strength," says Col. Kamran Aslam, a regional army commander. "The war is still on. This time we are going to be hunting them. The only issue is, they go across the border but we can't go after them because it's another country."

It is indicative of the complexities of this war that in Kamran's patch, the Pakistanis accuse Afghan intelligence of abetting Pakistani militants, while to the south it is Pakistan that is accused by NATO and the U.S. of doing the same for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

On Kalpani base, however, the imperatives are duty, esprit de corps, and surviving a blizzard of screaming winds that seems to obliterate the mountains in cloud and snow.

The men sleep four to six to a room in sleeping bags laid out over woolen blankets, the only protection against the frigid floor. The camp has two generators, but each runs just one hour a day to conserve fuel. (An exception was made for a Pakistan-England cricket match.)

One night, to the rhythm of a soldier drumming on a cooking pan, the men sang love songs of Attaullah Niazi Khan, a famous Punjabi singer. They clapped when the music picked up, and silently swayed when it softened.

On a smoky kerosene lamp and heater sat a pail of water to provide hot water and stem the choking kerosene fumes.

The talk shifted to one of the most troubling recent incidents to upset the alliance: a U.S. airstrike on two mountain outposts in November that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

The men said they could not understand how the U.S. military, with all its technology, could make such a mistake, and it therefore must have been deliberate. "Every post has a Pakistani flag. They had to see it," said Tanvir, the base commander.

Said Mushtaq Khan, a major with the military's communications wing, "We also don't understand: If they made a mistake why didn't they say sorry? This is the question we ask ourselves in our heart."

The U.S. has said it was partially to blame, first for not having notified Pakistan of an operation in the area, and then for giving it the wrong coordinates for where it was taking place. It also insisted that the Pakistanis fired first.

Still, despite their criticism of the United States' conduct, none of the soldiers expressed sympathy for the Taliban.

Some Pakistani politicians may call it "America's War," but Tanvir disagreed.

"This is my country. I am a Pakistani. I don't see that anyone who destroys our schools, our masjids (mosques), kills people, is good for my country," he said. "... If they were working for a better Pakistan, we wouldn't be sitting in this post. The people would be supporting them against us."

Shafiullah, who is clean-shaven, said that if the Taliban were in charge he would have to grow a beard.

"They are the enemy. They are not working for Pakistan. They are telling us that we have to do everything their way," he said.

Early one morning a dozen men in heavy shawls trudged up the mountain to Kalpani. They had come from a nearby village, summoned by Tanvir to discuss complaints that some of the schools were not being properly protected. They belonged to one of the defense councils which have been established throughout territories cleared of Taliban fighters. They are charged with looking out for strangers, and periodically patrolling likely Taliban targets such as schools and public utilities.

Sitting in a semicircle on plastic chairs, the men peppered Tanvir with demands -- additional schoolrooms, a new road, a bathroom for the mosque. Tanvir listened quietly, jotting in a notebook.

Then he spoke, in Urdu with a translator on hand for those who only spoke Pashtu, Pakistan's other major language. He reminded the men that just a few days earlier a suicide bomber had killed a member of a defense council in another nearby village. "Watch when you go to the mosque, to a funeral, to the bazaar -- anywhere where people gather," he said.

Tanvir said that for the military to leave, local communities would have to take responsibility for their villages with the help of a trained police force. He said part of his job is to help train the police.

Near Kalpani, a half-dozen police are being mentored by the soldiers, taken out on patrol, taught how to interact with the community. "When we first came, some of the police didn't even know how to carry their weapon properly," Tanvir said. "They have to know how to identify a suspicious person, what to look for, how to search them. We can't just leave and let everyone (Taliban) come back. We have to have a well-trained police force."

___

Kathy Gannon is AP Special Regional Correspondent for Pakistan and Afghanistan. She can be reached at Kathy Gannon (@Kathygannon) on Twitter
 
I think Pakistan needs to take care of the security threats it faces, & shouldn't care about the war outside its country. Pakistan should be building more bridges inside Afghanistan than burning them, & should have a big stake in Afghanistan, as a stable Afghanistan is needed for a stable neighborhood.
 
Pakistans army has truly served its country with flying colors. Its a shame our politicians havent shown the same dedication on the international field. When you have a lack of respect given to our leaders for their misdameanors then this is unfortunately rubbed onto our brave soldiers. The west take the lead by looking at our leaders and then show the same respect for anything associated with Pakistan. The army deserves tenfold more gratitude and appreciation in achieving our goals. I for one know and appreciate their efforts.
 
This PoV however will never make it to the West(read US).
To them the reality is via fox news and CNN.. and only a few bother to actually search for some semblance of truth.
Their surveys take us in the same light as Iran..and to be fair the majority of the population here probably hates the US more than Iranians do.
That is simply due to a single factor.. less people to people contact.. and more Government and media displays.

What is shown by the Mullahs to their seedlings are the redneck examples of the US to stir up hate.
And what is shown there are our relative rednecks..
Like our sacrifices in the WoT seem to be forgotten, so is the immense help by the US during the Earthquake and the Floods.
 
us has long ago won the media war when you get elected saying you can destroy iran thats when you will know us has completely won the information war
 
Yes they should, coz Pak Army has waged West's war over their own people, and West has every right to dictate to you since you're their mercenary-force. They can use you like trash in Salala and you won't do a damn, a fckn damn thing - you're being paid to die and kill for them.

Dear Astanoshkhan,

We cannot deny that differences have arisen during our long alliance in the WOT. Those who wish to see us part ways have also taken full advantage of our troubling times by increasing their terrorist activities. At the end of the day, our governments are well aware of the consequences associated with breaking our alliance, and that’s why you find our nations making every effort to iron out the differences. We should be glad to see that the signs of recovery are yet visible once again since the Salala incident. We wouldn’t dare undermine the seriousness of the Salala incident, and the truth is that the Pakistani government chose to protest by closing the ground supply route. How is it possible for a “mercenary force” to make such a move against their “dictator,” as you suggest? The reality is that the U.S. and Pakistan are two independent nations that continue to make independent decisions.

We must not keep ourselves in denial about the threat that reigns over the region. We reiterate what the Pakistani soldier says in this above article: "This is my country. I am a Pakistani. I don't see that anyone who destroys our schools, our Masjids (mosques), kills people, is good for my country, and if they were working for a better Pakistan, we wouldn't be sitting in this post. The people would be supporting them against us." This war is with you, the U.S. and anyone who dares takes a stand against extremism. It may just be convenient to look the other way and allow our emotions to take over. But terrorism cannot be eradicated from the region unless both nations cover their ends and continue to squeeze the life out of the insurgency. Therefore, the logic must prevail before making any decisions in regards to our partnership.

MAJ Nevers,
DET, United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command
 
Pakistans army has truly served its country with flying colors. Its a shame our politicians havent shown the same dedication -
Your politicians or your generals? By their own account these men are not supported enough to go on the offensive. That isn't from lack of supply; Pakistan's Army has only exerted a small fraction of its strength against the militants. Haven't these men been condemned to an uncomfortable and demoralizing static deployment because the P.A.'s leaders wish to control the militants rather than conquer them? What are these troops doing with their time? Trying to train policemen to shoot is only a small part of the job of being an effective policeman!
 
Yes they should, coz Pak Army has waged West's war over their own people, and West has every right to dictate to you since you're their mercenary-force. They can use you like trash in Salala and you won't do a damn, a fckn damn thing - you're being paid to die and kill for them.


If the Taliban are "Our" people, then I would like to side with anybody else but "Us". If "Our" people are busy killing MY people, then I will side with MY people.
 
Your politicians or your generals? By their own account these men are not supported enough to go on the offensive. That isn't from lack of supply; Pakistan's Army has only exerted a small fraction of its strength against the militants. Haven't these men been condemned to an uncomfortable and demoralizing static deployment because the P.A.'s leaders wish to control the militants rather than conquer them? What are these troops doing with their time? Trying to train policemen to shoot is only a small part of the job of being an effective policeman!

tut tut Soloman2
being naughty as always are we? politicians are not fighting this war. but the soldiers are including the generals who have given their lives in WoT if your selective memory allows you then you can confirm what I am talking about.
by the way, the subject is about our war within our own borders. not about the failure of NATO in Afghanistan.

that cant be helped. going by the less than impressive result by the world's most advanced army in the history of mankind... I will agree that Pakistan hasnt done enough to save the NATO from failing in Afghanistan
had your soldiers been actually fighting the real taliban instead of urinating on corpses, burning Quran and killing civilians to collect human trophies then the things might have been different.

no body can control the tribesmen of Pakistan and Afghanistan. we know it well but you are still in denial. there are some tentative moves towards peace talks but Pakistan hasnt DONE ENOUGH to convince you to stop trying to fight and fake the talks at the same time.


try to "DO MORE" talks with taliban in Doha/ Dobai offices so that this blame storming ends in our lifetime.
 
Why in the first place our Army feels that it needs any recognition from US or NATO. Simply putting it. It is our WAR.

Can someone simply put down the mission objectives that US and NATO set for themselves, when entering Afghanistan post 9/11?

And what are the objectives now?

I have asked many of my western friends, all what I hear is rambling on this or that, never a definitive answer.

In my opinion nowadays someone’s power can be gauged by the simple litmus test, where how much lies can someone tell and still get away with it, that too, knowing that others know that what is being told is false.
More lies a person can say, the more powerful he is.

US has the power to brush aside Pakistani view point without even making an effort, and we are mulling over being ‘undervalued’

Have not learnt anything yet?
It’s in human nature; it is built into us that we only appreciate things better once when we experience them ourselves.
It is a saying that - wise is he who learns from his own mistakes and does not repeat them, and fool is he who after committing a mistake repeats it.

I would say it is too much to ask from humans to learn from others’ mistakes and not commit them in the first place.

History of great Allies

SEATO:
The Southeast Asia Collective Defence Treaty, or Manila Pact, signed on 8 September 1954 in Manila, as part of the American Truman Doctrine of creating anti-communist bilateral and collective defence treaties. These treaties and agreements were intended to create alliances that would contain communist powers (Communist China, in SEATO's case). If there wasn’t any threat to Pakistan from Communist block at that time then there should have been one after SEATO.
Think if we were in any such treaty in favour of Communist block, what would have been the response of the US and NATO.
historians have considered the Manila Pact a failure and the pact is rarely mentioned in history books. In The Geneva Conference of 1954, Sir James Cable, a diplomat and naval strategist, described SEATO as "a fig leaf for the nakedness of American policy", citing the Manila Pact as a "zoo of paper tigers".

Dissolution of SEATO was game set match. Pakistan withdrew in 1972 after the cold December of 1971, in which East Pakistan successfully seceded with the aid of India.

CENTO:
Pakistan ally of NATO against Russia, Russia which had no adventurism planned against Pakistan at least at that time.
South Asia became extremely volatile areas during the 1960s, In 1965 and 1971, Pakistan tried unsuccessfully to get assistance in its wars with India through CENTO, but this was rejected under the idea that CENTO was aimed at containing the USSR, not India.
24 February 1955: A military agreement is signed between Iraq and Turkey, and the term "Baghdad Pact" starts to be used. Iran, Pakistan and the United Kingdom join the Baghdad Pact.
1959 March: New regime of Iraq withdraws the country from the alliance.
1965: Pakistan tries to get help from its allies in their war against India, but without success.
1971: In a new war with India, Pakistan again tries unsuccessfully to get allied assistance.
1979: The new Islamic regime of Iran withdraws the country from CENTO.

CENTO made sure that Russia which used to stay mute on the matter of Kashmir in UNO, started Vetoing resolutions regarding Kashmir.

And during the 65 war, when Pakistani Army captured some Indian territory, it found ammunition and equipment in captured Indian posts which had markings of - Shipment for Pakistan.

The 1980s Afghanistan – Russia –Pakistan –US
The less said about this the better. Al Qaeda –Taliban – Mercenaries – Thugs – subhuman devourers of life. Don’t want to quote Ronald Reagan, what his views were in regards with the Righteous Mujahedeen

Are these feeling of being undervalued any new?
 
its really unfortunate for any country that some people are born whiners. they curse their identity, they curse the institutes that define their county they curse their surrounding and then they ditch their national founding fathers and take Turks and Arabs as their ancestors.
so how they will react in the time of good news?
they will be cynical or silent

and how they will react in the time of bad news?
they will be condescending to their own people, they will whine and moan like fatherless siblings giving other people the chance to laugh at them and their nation

I am sure people will know who is this post about
 
Our responsibility is to do whatever it takes to win this war.

However I believe the soldiers should also be taught some courses about how to win over restive populations, populations that are vary of their presence and influence. For example there have been reports in Swat that the Army sometimes harasses the people. These reports have to disappear and people need to feel at ease with the Army moving around in their areas.
 
its really unfortunate for any country that some people are born whiners. they curse their identity, they curse the institutes that define their county they curse their surrounding and then they ditch their national founding fathers and take for Turks and Arabs as their ancestors.
so how they will react in the time of good news?
they will be cynical or silent

and how they will react in the time of bad news?
they will be condescending to their own people, they will whine and moan like fatherless siblings giving other people the chance to laugh at them and their nation

I am sure people will know who is this post about

Accept the TRUTH!

Show some responsibility and accept the reality otherwise where you are standing today "You will stay @ the same place after 100 years" the example is "1947 - 2012". Deleting comments you can't change the real perception of PAKISTANI's
 
Terrorism cannot be eradicated from the region unless both nations cover their ends and continue to squeeze the life out of the insurgency. Therefore, the logic must prevail before making any decisions in regards to our partnership.

MAJ Nevers,
DET, United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command
Maj Nevers,
The truth is that the US of A has a habit of ditching their allies as soon as their objectives are met. You guys dumped Pakistan like a sack of rotten potatoes after the Soviets were sent packing from Afghanistan. You left them to hold the baby and clear up the mess that you guys had created. And that includes all the honchos of the present terror pack that Pakistan is fighting against now.

The question is, will history be repeated? This brings to mind that famous line - "Wham bam, thank you ma'am!"

Do you get my drift?
 
@Stealth : don’t try to play over-clever sir.

We respect our responsibilities, if some people were half the men they think they are they would join the PAK Army to be on the front line, but its just that the cosy atmosphere of a sitting room and drawing room has got the best of them. there is no other institution in PAK as disciplined as army. I will not argue with any here - they are free to have their own opinion.

If some are so depressed over being born in Pakistan, then there is no cure for them lot.

In my opinion Pak Army is doing a splendid job, and they need not worry about being over or undervalued by a non concerning entity – be it anyone.

As far as our foreign policy and love hate relation with the US, mistakes and paradoxes (my opinion only), please refer to my last post on this thread.

Regards
 
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