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Pakistani troops feel West undervalues their war

Maj Nevers,
The truth is that the US of A has a habit of ditching their allies as soon as their objectives are met. You guys dumped Pakistan like a sack of rotten potatoes after the Soviets were sent packing from Afghanistan. You left them to hold the baby and clear up the mess that you guys had created. And that includes all the honchos of the present terror pack that Pakistan is fighting against now.

The question is, will history be repeated? This brings to mind that famous line - "Wham bam, thank you ma'am!"

Did you get my drift?

Majority of Pakistan against Americans USA especially most ANTI American state is Pakistan so how this Army representing the nation ??????? how these 200 300 people of the military making foreign policy AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN where as AMERICAN MILITARY making policy for their own people and objectives. Can anyone explain here what Pakistan's Military objective ??? except doing what US want ??? US is enemy of Pakistan not ally leave USA aside first give the answer what about thinking of PAKISTAN Military ??? when they ditching Pakistan after Afghan War WHY Pakistan Army again did the same thing after 9/11.

Question ???? and Answer is...
"NO ANSWER AND DELETE THE PDF POST"
 
@Stealth : don’t try to play over-clever sir.

We respect our responsibilities, if some people were half the men they think they are they would join the PAK Army to be on the front line, but its just that the cosy atmosphere of a sitting room and drawing room has got the best of them. there is no other institution in PAK as disciplined as army. I will not argue with any here - they are free to have their own opinion.

If some are so depressed over being born in Pakistan, then there is no cure for them lot.

In my opinion Pak Army is doing a splendid job, and they need not worry about being over or undervalued by a non concerning entity – be it anyone.

As far as our foreign policy and love hate relation with the US, mistakes and paradoxes (my opinion only), please refer to my last post on this thread.

Regards

Sir you its not about born or not... its about the ANSWER what Splendid job you are talking about ????? show single achievement of Pakistan Army from past 10 years ???? Just single achievement ???? or even since 1980 ????????? your post just make happy mods and PDF few members but not Majority of the nation who want the answer of this MEMO GATE (First as usual make national security issue now WHere is memo gate ????, OBL Raid, Daily Drone attacks with the approval of Pakistan Army, Mehran base Attack, GHQ Attack, Afghan War and many 10000 of events you don't have answer except ... born born born !!!! I am more patriotic then those who are deleting my comments and trying to become PDF big boss because they don't have the answer.

IMO Pakistan Army is great and brave but "Who are represent this Army known as Head of Military are culprit not low rank soldiers".
 
try to stay on topic - should Pakistan Army care about being over or undervalued?

No matter how the answers are put, it would not satisfy many. this is a paradox true for all - and i would take responsibility for my Biases , for that matter my Bias is Pakistan.

All the rants ends up being a question how to best deal with dissent. And my opinion regarding dissent as I put it out some time back is as follows. I have already put my case regarding the the need or no need of being a valued Ally, it is OUR WAR we need no medals from others.

A society would only claim to be a more evolved and rational once it does not curtail Dissent; for the reason that curtailing Dissent for a long time only adds to its ferocity.

The dilemma is that the above statement is a paradox, where not curtailing Dissent sometimes posses threat in short term, in long term it might serve the society better. This repeats itself in cycles where by sheer nature of things, norms of the society keep on swinging between two ends like a pendulum; more vicious are these swings in the start and over time it sort of rests in the centre. And then again our curiosity gets the better of us, as it is not in human nature to be stagnant.

It’s in human nature; it is built into us that we only appreciate things better once when we experience them ourselves.

It is a saying that - wise is he who learns from his own mistakes and does not repeat them, and fool is he who after committing a mistake repeats it.

I would say it is too much to ask from humans to learn from others’ mistakes and not commit them in the first place. In my opinion it only happens in Utopia. Inquisition is in humans by nature, a society after some generations starts questioning ideas that have become norms, that too for a number of reasons.
The ones who advocate norms and rules based on their experiences (themselves learnt from their mistakes) pass away (lets call them ‘advocators’), then the ones that adhered to the rules and norms for being witness to the advocators pass away (call them ‘adherers’) so and so forth, till the time comes when for the current crop the norms and rules do not carry much meaning –thus arises Dissent which later manifests itself causes a change that can either be good or bad, the ones who would learn for their experiences in the phase of Dissent and change become new ‘advocators’. This happens over and over again, ideas and societies thus evolve and over time take different shapes.

In my opinion rise and fall of civilizations, society and ideas naturally takes this pattern.

Eastern and Western societies very much polarized in their ideas and there is no clear good or bad side
 
try to stay on topic - should Pakistan Army care about being over or undervalued?

I don't know but they are acting like a boss but who is suffering ????? "People of Pakistan" especially those Pakistanis who are living abroad. When Forigners asking "oh OBL was found near capital where is your Army... oh heard that 50 people died in Drone attack where is your army ?? ... many soldier died in pure "Attack" by NATO on the border where is your military support ?? you have no idea about the harassment especially those who are working in multinational firms no idea which kind of respect we have in the world. So the title should be.... Pakistani people feel undervalues because of this 9/11. I am Pakistani and proud to be but never familiar and in favor with this Army policy.
 
try to stay on topic - should Pakistan Army care about being over or undervalued?

No matter how the answers are put, it would not satisfy many. this is a paradox true for all - and i would take responsibility for my Biases , for that matter my Bias is Pakistan.

All the rants ends up being a question how to best deal with dissent. And my opinion regarding dissent as I put it out some time back is as follows. I have already put my case regarding the the need or no need of being a valued Ally, it is OUR WAR we need no medals from others.

this OUR WAR statement is totally ....... leave it... ask those families and people whom relative died in this "OUR WAR" and what you give them!
 
I am a proud Pakistani living abroad, .. i am very well respected by my western friends. Because i don’t whinge and whine... i argue my case with reason and with history in perspective.


my Bias is Pakistan, and i am also critic of our past and present policies be it internal or foreign.
But i am no a whiner.
Already put my prespective in post 10.

Free soul – peace out.
 
@Stealth : don’t try to play over-clever sir.

We respect our responsibilities, if some people were half the men they think they are they would join the PAK Army to be on the front line, but its just that the cosy atmosphere of a sitting room and drawing room has got the best of them. there is no other institution in PAK as disciplined as army. I will not argue with any here - they are free to have their own opinion.

If some are so depressed over being born in Pakistan, then there is no cure for them lot.

In my opinion Pak Army is doing a splendid job, and they need not worry about being over or undervalued by a non concerning entity – be it anyone.

As far as our foreign policy and love hate relation with the US, mistakes and paradoxes (my opinion only), please refer to my last post on this thread.

Regards



the problem with this alliance of WoT is that its an alliance of convenience and somewhat lack of choice. the premise is the 9/11 atrocity and Pakistan's proximity with the Afghan regime that was hosting OBL and his organization. although Pakistan & America together played their parts in supporting the Taliban in the beginning but by the time OBL had decided to become their permanent guest, the Taliban had grown out of the influence of their mentors. Americans came to destroy the organization and its leadership they nominated the responsibility of the 9/11 attack. A shotgun marriage was arranged with Pakistan as a very weak partner.

Such alliance has its flaws no matter how well meaning and honest this partnership is because of abnormal disparity in strength and size of one partner compared to the other. If its successful the winner (stronger party) will take all (the credit) and if there are complications and failure then the weaker partner will have to bear the blame.
The other issue is the differencing aims from this war. Americans are almost reaching the conclusion of their reason to invade Afghanistan. Now their goals might be different if they want to stay in the region. They have Iran and China in their gunsight.
Pakistan has had to take a full U turn in its policy vis-à-vis Afghanistan from being a silent spectator( once Taliban became independent of its guidance ) to actually a partner of an invader who blamed Taliban equally like Al Qaeda for the global terrorism. This is the challenge Musharraf faced where he has tried his best to sell this idea of dismissing the Taliban version of Islam and to date it’s a big struggle because despite all the terrorism and all the exposure of Taliban has not convinced the people of Pakistan 100% that radicalization is a bad idea and Taliban version of Islam is a very very bad idea for the future of Pakistan.

it is really novice and amateur to argue that Pakistan was still controlling them or somehow it is still controlling them. they had made the universal sign of the middle finger to pretty much the whole world by when they were destroying Buddha and ethnically cleansing hazaras and butchering the residents of captured towns they won from Northern Alliance. Pakistanis were only burring their heads in sand and wishing God that the taliban dont bring their menace to Pakistan but the work was already under way and country had many places like Lal masjid that was breeding a certain mindset. the funds had no limit thanks to the pretodollars coming via hundi from the Middle East


But all of this above just a background story. The question is why our military feels undervalued despite its achievements and the sacrifices it had to make in the war on terror. Problem is because this partnership has not achieved the desired results despite putting in the 22nd century technology and the billions of dollar’s worth of resources against a rag tag militia. Being a weaker partner it will have to take all the blame. That’s the law of nature. The alpha male of the pack takes the lions share of the kill (win) and once he has his full then the subordinates make do with the leftovers but when the hunt fails, the weaker one is bitten, evicted or even devoured by the stronger members of the same pack.

Reasons for American failure in Afghanistan have been discussed many time on the airwaves and the web. And its better to open yet another thread for further discussion or post in already existing many threads in this forum. Maybe Pakistan military would have still felt undervalued had this war gone according to the plan and we have had captured OBL and Taliban leadership when NATO attacked Tora Bora and had closed all routes instead of allowing them to escape. (do look that up and be surprised if anyone cant recall that).
It shouldn’t b e only be American reason to feel undervalued. The sleep walking Pakistani population that still views Osama and Mullah omar more favorably over current and previous leadership is another issue. The are Lal masjid and TTP sympathizers who actually mock Pakistan army over the incidents of friendly fire incidents with ISAF/ American forces or when the TTP strikes.
 
Since the OP is about Western recognition of Pak sacrifices, I will leave aside the issue of domestic response.

On topic, once one accepts the premise that the WOT is merely a smokescreen for the wider geopolitical game, and that Pakistan military is perceived as a hindrance to those plans, then the demonization, demoralization, and weakening of the Pakistan army comes as no surprise.
 
In my point of view in this discussion we didn’t differentiate being patriotic and real problems concerning national security. Being patriotic doesn’t mean you close eyes from blunders, incompetency of national institutions and security laps. 2008-2009-2010 and 2011 shows all positives and negatives of our military and political leadership. Loose security, low leveled counter terrorism and counter intelligence and poor command and control with cheap strategy & planning for national sovereignty. West undervalued their War because they shifted it toward us so by their end it is Pakistan who should handle it in general and Pakistan underestimated or undervalued war and bring it to own home.

AstanoshKhan & Stealth are not wrong in their views, there are many mistakes have done by our Army and intelligence and they are responsible for all casualties in last 4 years. West surely will undervalue war when they know that our main ally is self suicide country and could play on contract.

How it looks when army received some thousand dollars for every drone strike in our territory when we could direct our efforts to terminate extremists by own but in result for some million dollars we are enemy in eyes of our own people. Pakistan Military too undervalued war on particular level.

OrionHunter also give classical view against US but I am asking to PA that nobody forced you to be maternity home for Jihad and afterword terrorism in 1979 and than 2001.

Pakistani troops can’t feel anything because they follow order and order comes from military leadership so if they feel something then first start from own generals that WHO IS ACTUALLY UNDERVALUEING OR OVERVALUING.
 
Since the OP is about Western recognition of Pak sacrifices, I will leave aside the issue of domestic response.

On topic, once one accepts the premise that the WOT is merely a smokescreen for the wider geopolitical game, and that Pakistan military is perceived as a hindrance to those plans, then the demonization, demoralization, and weakening of the Pakistan army comes as no surprise.

yup that explains why Americans are still in Afghanistan after the death of Osama and many of his top lieutenants. the scope has been redefined or was already in place and 9/11 just gave the excuse.

the anti army propaganda is on its peak through local and foreign media and among the radicalised section of society was never a fan of Pakistan army's role in WoT so they seem to be working together to discredit the army.
 
Majority of Pakistanis are not actually understand this WOT theory (made by this military) G.Musharaf Govt and before Zia-ul-Haq. Both wars started by the USA in this region (Afghanistan) and the Pakistan Army as usual working for the US. If this is our war then explain why this Army give reimbursement bills known as collation funds to US Govt? which is actually nothing as compare to 60 - 70 Billion $$ loss with 35,000 Pakistani scarifies. Why not we blame this Army ???? when not a single Pakistani involve in 9/11 (Cartoon Network story hijackers hi-jacked 3 aircraft's at a time blaa blaa). Why this army working for the US and the CIA ??? how Pakistani and International community give respect to such Army who is actually fighting war of other countries ???? hamnay theeka lay rakha hey dunya ka ???

@Irfan Baloch
I respect your opinion either I agree with them or not at least respect other views.

Why the people of Pakistan and International Community discredit this Army because they played totally wrong role in both Afghanistan War. We are fighting US WAR which US > inside Pakistan and this army help US because Army and Politicians both dependent on the US Govt and majority of the Pakistanis are anti-US Govt.
 
Majority of Pakistanis are not actually understand this WOT theory (made by this military) G.Musharaf Govt and before Zia-ul-Haq. Both wars started by the USA in this region (Afghanistan) and the Pakistan Army as usual working for the US. If this is our war then explain why this Army give reimbursement bills known as collation funds to US Govt??????? if this is not our war so why we still asking for loan, money which is actually nothing as compare to 60 - 70 Billion $$ loss with 35,000 Pakistani scarifies. Why not we blame this Army ???? when not a single Pakistani involve in 9/11 (Cartoon Network story hijackers hi-jacked 3 aircraft's at a time blaa blaa). Why this army working for the US and the CIA ??? how Pakistani and International community give respect to such Army who is actually fighting war of other countries ???? hamnay theeka lay rakha hey dunya ka ???

They win War for US but lost every-war for herself!

would you be ok if payment comes from Saudis?
some pakistanis went to Bahrain to kill the protesters and were paid by Bahrain.. how do you view that?


what if we were fighting the war for Saudi Arabia? would it be suddenly halal and honourable to accept their money to fight taliban?

by the way what if Saudi king calls Kynai asking for his price for fighting Iran when Israel and Saudia will attack Iran this summer?
I see that the problem is with American money.

I wonder why such criticism is not levelled against Taliban and their Arab financiers?
 
would you be ok if payment comes from Saudis?
some pakistanis went to Bahrain to kill the protesters and were paid by Bahrain.. how do you view that?


what if we were fighting the war for Saudi Arabia? would it be suddenly halal and honourable to accept their money to fight taliban?

by the way what if Saudi king calls Kynai asking for his price for fighting Iran when Israel and Saudia will attack Iran this summer?
I see that the problem is with American money.

I wonder why such criticism is not levelled against Taliban and their Arab financiers?

Brother i am against any kind of fund/calls/pressure. I am totally against if Pakistan fight war of others or even involve. I want my Military "Independent". Answer is already in your comment. Why Kiyani or any Military general agree with US/Saudi/Israel why any military officer give positive response to Saudis or anyone ?

I am supporting Pakistan ISI - Taliban (Afghanis) alliance because now we created mess for us in Afghanistan now under US umbrella India is working against Pakistan. Now we need such alliance so i am agreed with new Military policy.
 
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