Pakistani troops feel West undervalues their war

[illusion8]

Since the OP is about Western recognition of Pak sacrifices, I will leave aside the issue of domestic response.

On topic, once one accepts the premise that the WOT is merely a smokescreen for the wider geopolitical game, and that Pakistan military is perceived as a hindrance to those plans, then the demonization, demoralization, and weakening of the Pakistan army comes as no surprise.

It definitely is a blatant smoke screen, no one can deny that - But it is still a mystery why Pakistan accepted to be part of WOT and it still is actively involved. Didn't anyone back then realize it as much. I remember the US asking for berthing rights as well refuelling assistance to India earlier - and India refused categorically, there was some foresight involved in India's thinking then and as well as now. Was Pk's involvement purely for the dollars?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It definitely is a blatant smoke screen, no one can deny that - But it is still a mystery why Pakistan accepted to be part of WOT and it still is actively involved. Didn't anyone back then realize it as much. I remember the US asking for berthing rights as well refuelling assistance to India earlier - and India refused categorically, there was some foresight involved in India's thinking then and as well as now. Was Pk's involvement purely for the dollars?

bombing to stone age

 

[Rank]

Tomorrow India threatening us "bombing to stone age" and we will again ......... ????

what a excuse.... is that Iran still in stone age ???? Taliban destory US economy on this WOT.... they are in stone age already and send Americans towards stone age....today half of Americans protesting against the govt on this useless WOT.. they don't have money to pay taxes, loans etc .... everyday people towards > poverty in the US.... US will send us stone age ??

 

[illusion8]

bombing to stone age

Thats a BS threat and u and me know it, the decision by Pk was in haste without thinking of the consequences the results of which are coming to the fore recently. WOT has been a total disaster for PK in every sense of the word. Some foresight would have saved a lot of trouble..again let me reiterate the US asked for Indian facilities which India refused to provide politely, we could have scored some brownie points, but then consequences were not known, there was some foresight in that ..do you agree?

 

[Free Soul]

@Stealth

My respected friend your obsession with proving yourself to be a failure is beyond comprehension. By bad mouthing your own self, do you realize you are proving yourself to be a failure?
Sorry but your rants are fit for propaganda machinery of Fox, Sky News, Al Jazeera, Press TV etc. from a westerner’s point of view how does it look like? It goes something like this - whiners and people who find everything wrong with their nations are perfect for cheap general public consumption, we use them for obvious reasons, their mental aptitude is so low that they don’t know when they are undermining their own selves. What they accept us to say to them is ‘thanks for saying the truth’ and ‘you have enlightened us’ which we do say to them. In serious debates these morons never get the chance to rant their incoherent thoughts on others, because we really like to find out what is best for us, and gauge the acumen of a society and nation.

My opinion on the TOPIC in discussion is that, Pakistan army does not need any assurance that they are a very valued Ally. Lame praises serve us no good.

 

[DV RULES]

would you be ok if payment comes from Saudis?
some pakistanis went to Bahrain to kill the protesters and were paid by Bahrain.. how do you view that?


what if we were fighting the war for Saudi Arabia? would it be suddenly halal and honourable to accept their money to fight taliban?

by the way what if Saudi king calls Kynai asking for his price for fighting Iran when Israel and Saudia will attack Iran this summer?
I see that the problem is with American money.

I wonder why such criticism is not levelled against Taliban and their Arab financiers?

Irfan Baloch

Issue is not US, NATO or Saudi because tomorrow any country can offer you for particular purposes, here issue is why Pakistan involves in external matters or war with short thinking and without its future strategic planning? Why we brought carpeted bombing for no reason with whom we have to live? Why we sent a country into Stone Age without measuring its consequences?

We respect our army and we are proud of it but this is not solution of problems we are facing. Respect has its own place but till we are not clear with our role in region and with our neighbours anybody can use us.

 

[Jango]

Well what do you know, in today's edition of Khaleej Times newspaper of UAE, there were three big pictures in the Pakistan section, of soldiers going to Kalpani Post , one was in the snow, and the other two were of people in the post, in one picture, a soldier was warming water!!! and the soldiers were of 20 lancers.

Looks like somebody saw this thread!!!

 

[Paan Singh]

bombing to stone age

There was no such threat given by the U.S to pakistan.As per sources,U.S was intersted in india for the supplies of their military equipment to a-stan but mushy grabbed the chance and he involved pakistan in exchange of aid and other military stuff.
its just hoax delivered by mushy that U.S have threatened pakistan.

 

[Developereo]

Irfan has already answered the question of Pak's participation after 9/11. People don't appreciate that the US was like a wounded bear right after 9/11. No country on the planet -- not even Russia or China -- could have stood in their way, least of all Pakistan. The situation with India was completely different. India was a 'nice to have' in their war effort, but Pakistan was absolutely essential for transit into Afghanistan. If Pakistan didn't comply, there is zero doubt that the US would have obliterated Pakistan's army and gone ahead anyway. The entire US was asking for blood, and Bush had the world behind him.

However, I agree that the fundamental mistake Pakistan made was to house the 'non state actors' within Pakistan itself and, worse, indoctrinate the local population for recruitment. All countries use 'questionable' means, but no one is stupid enough to use their own territory or their own people.

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

There was no such threat given by the U.S to pakistan.As per sources,U.S was intersted in india for the supplies of their military equipment to a-stan but mushy grabbed the chance and he involved pakistan in exchange of aid and other military stuff.
its just hoax delivered by mushy that U.S have threatened pakistan.

Open an atlas and tell us how you can transit heavy military equipment into Afghanistan without going through Iran or Pakistan. Airlifts are extremely expensive and impractical for long term campaigns. The larger geopolitical goals were there from the very beginning and the US knew they were going to stay for the long haul.

 

[rockstarIN]

There is a saying in the job circle, how excellent you do 20 assignments, one bad stuff will show you up as a failure.

In today's world it is not you do well, but show it to the world that you are doing well.

PA making sacrifices, but one OBL raid, in the heart of Pakistan or one 26/11 story made it irrelevant in front of the world.

Sad but true.

 

[DV RULES]

Irfan has already answered the question of Pak's participation after 9/11. People don't appreciate that the US was like a wounded bear right after 9/11. No country on the planet -- not even Russia or China -- could have stood in their way, least of all Pakistan. The situation with India was completely different. India was a 'nice to have' in their war effort, but Pakistan was absolutely essential for transit into Afghanistan. If Pakistan didn't comply, there is zero doubt that the US would have obliterated Pakistan's army and gone ahead anyway. The entire US was asking for blood, and Bush had the world behind him.

However, I agree that the fundamental mistake Pakistan made was to house the 'non state actors' within Pakistan itself and, worse, indoctrinate the local population for recruitment. All countries use 'questionable' means, but no one is stupid enough to use their own territory or their own people.

Our people should leave this sort of thinking.
Pakistan followed the rule "DO FIRST AND THEN THINK ABOUT IT" When it's too late to think.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thats a BS threat and u and me know it, the decision by Pk was in haste without thinking of the consequences the results of which are coming to the fore recently. WOT has been a total disaster for PK in every sense of the word. Some foresight would have saved a lot of trouble..again let me reiterate the US asked for Indian facilities which India refused to provide politely, we could have scored some brownie points, but then consequences were not known, there was some foresight in that ..do you agree?

Do you think the American decision to invade Afghanistan was made in haste too? was it also BS? I agree it was a bad call on part of Musharraf but you tell me how to control an unhitched revenge seeking trigger happy superpower and then we can debate on how we are going to deal with our radicalization problem.


we were already partially blamed for 9/11. a clever and smart selective reporting named us the main culprit of Afghan civil war and the part CIA played was very conveniently and smartly removed as a patriotic duty by all major "free" mainstream media of America. I will give credit to Indian diplomacy for sure. but being a bit far away from the "scene" also helped here. there is some luck involved too. I must say that it did allow the air corridor whether it was used or not I dont remember but as the air campaign was being planned there were analysis on the western news channels charting the expected routes of the planes. and actually the stealth bombers DID fly over India and Pakistan too. if you refute that then I will leave it there as I have no intention of proving that as it will drag us off the topic.

sorry discussion will go sideways again. the radicalization has been happening for a long time since the first Afghan war and the fact that Pakistan has been a battle ground for Saudi and Iranian proxy wars. the spawn of various sectarian outfits was the result that killed a lot of civilians.

point of above paragraph is that we were sitting on a ticking time bomb. look how the Lal Masjid operation sent some section of society under the laps of ultra violent terrorists like Sipah Sapah and TTP etc. look how our "moderate" Sunni community reacted at large on the killing of Suleman Taseer and the overall lost debate on Hadood ordinance which is completely unislamic IMO and unfair and derogatory to women. so conditions were always there for the chaos to happen at any varying level.

I agree, that looking at the situation we are in now. it is easy to decide that being part of American vengeful venture was a bad idea and it has had its adverse affects. but what is done is done. this question has been asked to Musharraf few times recently and he says what he did then was best in that situation and yes the situation we are in now does seem that it has had adverse effects on us. see some videos on that where he is giving interviews to western journalists. You really don’t need to convince us with the number killed and the psychological and economical and social impact of this war because its known and agreed.

 

[illusion8]

Do you think the American decision to invade Afghanistan was made in haste too? was it also BS? I agree it was a bad call on part of Musharraf but you tell me how to control an unhitched revenge seeking trigger happy superpower and then we can debate on how we are going to deal with our radicalization problem.


we were already partially blamed for 9/11. a clever and smart selective reporting named us the main culprit of Afghan civil war and the part CIA played was very conveniently and smartly removed as a patriotic duty by all major "free" mainstream media of America. I will give credit to Indian diplomacy for sure. but being a bit far away from the "scene" also helped here. there is some luck involved too. I must say that it did allow the air corridor whether it was used or not I dont remember but as the air campaign was being planned there were analysis on the western news channels charting the expected routes of the planes. and actually the stealth bombers DID fly over India and Pakistan too. if you refute that then I will leave it there as I have no intention of proving that as it will drag us off the topic.

sorry discussion will go sideways again. the radicalization has been happening for a long time since the first Afghan war and the fact that Pakistan has been a battle ground for Saudi and Iranian proxy wars. the spawn of various sectarian outfits was the result that killed a lot of civilians.

point of above paragraph is that we were sitting on a ticking time bomb. look how the Lal Masjid operation sent some section of society under the laps of ultra violent terrorists like Sipah Sapah and TTP etc. look how our "moderate" Sunni community reacted at large on the killing of Suleman Taseer and the overall lost debate on Hadood ordinance which is completely unislamic IMO and unfair and derogatory to women. so conditions were always there for the chaos to happen at any varying level.

I agree, that looking at the situation we are in now. it is easy to decide that being part of American vengeful venture was a bad idea and it has had its adverse affects. but what is done is done. this question has been asked to Musharraf few times recently and he says what he did then was best in that situation and yes the situation we are in now does seem that it has had adverse effects on us. see some videos on that where he is giving interviews to western journalists. You really don’t need to convince us with the number killed and the psychological and economical and social impact of this war because its known and agreed.

Why would I need to convince you about the total number of war casualties? everyone has a fair idea of that, Also could be true that US war planes flew over India - but there's the difference they did not fly from Indian territory, politics and diplomacy is a hard ball game and governments need to sometimes make tough decisions. I was surprised when Mush agreed to get involved in the WOT. I thought Pk is out to save its hide and I thought that eventually the war will come to Pk's door step as well - it did and went beyond its now officially in Pk territory.

My only contention here is why was there no prior thinking of any consequences before getting into a 3rd persons war. its quite obvious that Pk will not give away its assets. But then u cannot travel in two boats at the same time. Either the US smartened out or this was their plan right from the beginning. Either their war strategy changed mid way owing to more actual information they collected or they planned it out right from day one. In both cases Pk was not able to maintain any sort of equilibrium. minus points for that.

 

[SBD-3]

Tomorrow India threatening us "bombing to stone age" and we will again ......... ????

what a excuse.... is that Iran still in stone age ???? Taliban destory US economy on this WOT.... they are in stone age already and send Americans towards stone age....today half of Americans protesting against the govt on this useless WOT.. they don't have money to pay taxes, loans etc .... everyday people towards > poverty in the US.... US will send us stone age ??

My friend, its the leadership which takes the necessary actions when testing times come. The problem with Mushi was that he suffered from "self perfection" bias. He always thought (and still thinks) whatever he thinks or does, is the best thing to do. For example, US made a similar demand from Turkey. But Turkish leadership made it clear that the matter would be decided by their parliament, the parliament voted against it and Turks politely refused the offer. However, in Pakistan, the parliament will always remain a dummy institution since the political powerhouse will either be President House or Prime Minister house (or of course the GHQ).

 

[fatman17]

There was no such threat given by the U.S to pakistan.As per sources,U.S was intersted in india for the supplies of their military equipment to a-stan but mushy grabbed the chance and he involved pakistan in exchange of aid and other military stuff.
its just hoax delivered by mushy that U.S have threatened pakistan.

how would india have facilitated their supplies - do you have a common border with a-stan? and do u really think PK would have agreed to 'transit' these supplies or are u thinking of supplying everything by 'air'?