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Pakistani soldiers killed by the Taliban could not be declared martyrs: Munawar Hasan

Pakistani and US soldiers are not fighting together against a common enemy in a common war . They have different reasons and objectives (opposite to one another), and different enemies . US accuses Pakistan of "double game" and Pakistan accuses US of "scuttling" peace attempts

There is no pakistani soldier fighting Taliban in Afghanistan and there is no US/NATO soldier on pakistani soil fighting TTP

Pakistani Army is fighting against the terrorists who kill innocent Pakistani people on Pakistan soil (US funded terrorists)

Then why Pakistan is always saying that we are the front lie ally in WoT. Why every now and then US and NATO military commanders come to Pakistan and hold meetings here? Why drones were flying from Shamsi and Jacobbabad airbase for so many yrs until cover was blown in some time ago? What abt all those revelations in Gen. Shahid Aziz book where he is saying that we as US allies are also responsible for destruction of Afghanistan. Moreover Taliban say we are fighting US/NATO and allies so isn't Pakistan front line ally?
 
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Then why Pakistan is always saying that we are the front lie ally in WoT. Why every now and then US and NATO military commanders come to Pakistan and hold meetings here? Why drones were flying from Shamsi and Jacobbabad airbase for so many yrs until cover was blown in some time ago? What abt all those revelations in Gen. Shahid Aziz book where he is saying that we as US allies are also responsible for destruction of Afghanistan. Moreover Taliban say we are fighting US/NATO and allies so isn't Pakistan front line ally?

NATO was given land route to Afghanistan and Airbases given to Americans not by choice and will . The message was very clear . "either you are with us or you are against us". Pakistan was in no position to FIGHT the NATO & Americans , Simple as that !! , They decided not to sacrifice themselves for the sake of Afghans and even if they had decided so , the fortune of Afghanis would have been the same !!
Pakistan Army did see Taliban as a "asset" , so they decided to play a "double game " ,after Securing the diplomatic front , They never supported the US and its allies in a true sense . And the Americans in return destabilized Pakistan , as a pay back
 
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Man i dont know whats your problem You are posting alot of BullSh1t about Islam, Keep Your Crap to yourself And dont open your mouth if you dont know any thing about islam and you are reported 2
i stand on your tail bro ? ohhh sorry
 
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You are saying all these things because you are thinking as a Pakistani and out of patriotism for your country. Just put Pakistan and patriotism aside for a moment and think only and only as a Muslim and I am sure your answer would be different.

No , we will not start supporting the Taliban terrorists " both Afghan and Pakistani " terrorizing people , snatching their freedom and peace , killing innocents and blowing themselves up in mosques/markets/shrines/schools/shops etc even then . There's no excuse for killing innocents by any chance , from any religious book you read and any logic you use . The stories of barbarism and insanity during Taliban rule both in Afghanistan and Swat and tribal areas are widely known . Keep what you think is right in your life , do not force others to follow the same because they aren't going to follow your " interpretation " . Dont sell your twisted Talibanic interpretation as " Islam " , kiddo .
 
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lets play shadat shahadat :rofl: ab to dogs bhi shaheed hony lagy hai :partay:
 
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You are saying all these things because you are thinking as a Pakistani and out of patriotism for your country. Just put Pakistan and patriotism aside for a moment and think only and only as a Muslim and I am sure your answer would be different.

I am not saying all these things out of Patriotism only . There are a lot of reasons to believe so; obvious happenings and logic . Pakistan`s role in Afghanistan has mostly been a negative one , no doubt about that . The Afghanis had to pay the price of Too much interference by Pakistan . A ordinary teacher , with few students and a few broken guns {Mullah Umar} could not have taken over whole of the Afganistan unless supported By Pakistan . Ahmed Shah Masood was a great Afghan and his criticism on Pakistan is justified . At the first place , we should not have created JIHADIS in Afghanistan in the soviet war . But if the circumstances prevailing then, are considered , this effort is quite understandable . We actually created a FRANKENSTEIN , and now this monster is under no one`s control
The real problem is that the "Talibani Islam" is not the "actual Islam" , and this is the reason why most of Pakistanis(over 75%) do not like them .
 
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You are saying all these things because you are thinking as a Pakistani and out of patriotism for your country. Just put Pakistan and patriotism aside for a moment and think only and only as a Muslim and I am sure your answer would be different.

Please read Surat Nissaa verse 29. (4:29). Allah Subhana wa Taala says don’t kill yourself. I my earlier post I quoted a Hadith from Sahih Buklhari wherein the holy Prophet (PBUH) has said that the one who commits suicide is going to Jahannam. (Hell)

Pray tell if according to Hadith, the one who commits suicide is hell bound, where the person who trains young men as suicide bomber is heading?

You call this jahannamy Hakimullah Shaheed and Pak army jawans as not –shaheed. And you preach me to think like a Muslim!

Sir, whose Islam are you talking about?
 
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Dillinger , the timing is what surprises me , the statement isn't surprising , since these people aren't considered Pro-Pakistan by me and a vast majority of people - mostly educated or tagged " secular/liberal/infidel/communist/Marxists " and what-not :D . Aren't you assuming something wrong here , mate ? Because if I were to agree for the sake of argument , that " the country and religion " weren't properly defined by its founders nor by the people , they were influenced by . Then , it would beg the question that " What exactly are we seeing these things only recently ? " , I mean then the distortion would have to be , from the beginning in that case , right ? Pakistan should have been in the state , it is today , from the day the Founder of the Nation passed away , but that wasn't the case . The reality , my friend , is much different . Both Muhammad Ali Jinnah and Allama Iqbal had a very firm , comprehensive and clear idea of how should the new Islamic state be and how it should be run . It is a common misconception on both that the Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted a fully religious or secular state , actually he wanted neither of them , he basically wanted a state which is not wholly and strict religious state with secular credentials running on a democratic system , just a place " where Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely " without any " imposition on gun point " - something prevalent today here , a place where every non-Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely too . This is the speech quoted frequently everywhere . However , fate wasn't with us , only after a year after the formation of Pakistan , the founder passed away and since then , the country was taken on a wrong path by different leaders , culminating in the lawlessness , chaos , anarchy , intolerance , extremism and terrorism that we see today . The generations after the people who migrated or lived here before the partition stopped bothering to have a look and think at deep Iqbal's poetry and the Jinnah's speeches on all aspect of running the country and advise to the nation to not go on the path that leads to " destruction " ultimately . One can always curse the wrong decision taken by the leaders - both military and political sure and the failure of the generations after , to study the true purpose and role of Islam , and the ideology their state was founded on , the system the founders wanted to run the country on , the freedom they wanted for all and something the people started to take for granted , until the extremist rose after 2004 and threatened and at times deprived them of such , the revivalism is happening again today . There are people rising in numbers who want to now research the ideas , thinking and thought patterns of the founding fathers . Not for the " uneducated " ones devoid of common sense and not willing to accept logic , reasoning and facts of course , but I can see the change in the attitude of the people - alongside the " radicalization " happening separately .

As for the " fortress of Islam " thing , it was actually something alien to us , brought into the mainstream by the Mullah who convinced the nation afterwards that somehow there existed a sort of brotherhood between like minded Muslim countries - the greatest myth ever created and still believed . The country started to interfere in things - in which it had no stake and no interest to begin with and worse of all , even damaged its own " interests " in the process . That idea comes from the blunder of " putting other nation's interest first " before our " own " , from running the foreign policy on " religion and emotion " rather than " national interests and security " . Jinnah asserted after the creation the famous words " No friends nor enemies in International politics , but only permanent interests " . Why did the leaders and the nation not pay heed then to it ?

Lets make it more clear . You know why it surprises me , the JI and others of religious Deobandi school of thought actually opposed the creation of our country yet migrated to it and started their politics in the same country , they despised . They never have been loyal to the state , they have been loyal to some fictitious brotherhood , they believe in saviors and utopias and they pledge their allegiance to Riyadh instead of Islamabad . But at such a crucial time where the nation is confused about its enemy , at such a time where we are looking for unity against the terrorists who have become a threat to our country , at such a time where twisted religious interpretation carry more weight than common sense/logic , at such a time when the people want to blame everything on foreign powers , they are making such a statement ! Now , you may not be able to understand it properly , not living in this country , but the lack of " public protests " against these nothing short of treason statements , stomping over the grave of our martyrs and just everything that we stand for , is the majority so fearful for its life now that it doesn't even dare to raise its voice against these traitors and or are they " radicalized " to the extent now , that this in indeed acceptable and even something appreciated ? On an optimistic note , maybe they do not give a darn about these leaders , I would like to believe rather than the first two explanations . The worrying part is what is giving these religious leaders the courage to speak such things , to openly speak what is in their mind , to expose their true face in these troubled times , to show once again that they aren't loyal to the country they live in and are fed by . Do they think that the time has come for their dear Taliban to take charge somehow ? An extremist takeover if my worst fears be true ? I do not see it happening though , since the extremists/terrorists control nothing more than even 0.5% of the country but what is it in the minds of those leaders making such statements in public now ? What do they know , that maybe we dont or maybe they are just shooting " arrows in the air " ? Just what !

I will deny not that for a certain group of people , the state is defined by the religion only and not by its characteristics and attributes , they would be willing to destroy their country gladly if it comes to Islam . Sheep in the herd mentality , the submissive thought pattern actually , following blindly the words of " God's viceroy " even if their far far subconsciousness tells them its wrong . Anyone who claims fighting for " Islam " regardless of if he's or not , will be followed with enthusiasm . Actually , these people haven't even learnt the religion by themselves , they gladly and voluntarily gave away the gift of " free and critical thinking " and outsourced all their decisions , ways of life , free will for some promise of " heaven " and " eternal bliss " . Opiate of the masses , they say , right ?

Read this ,

Jinnah wanted to model Pakistan after the United States.

Bro, you missed the most important part. I stated "which Islam", not that the country was ill-defined but rather that in the true sense Islam just meant one thing back then (there was no wide spread aberration of it being propagated)- now do you get it? When I said that it didn't need to be defined for certain people I was actually referring to the intelligentsia that would come to form Pakistan originally. So there was no question of this occurring in the early days. People had more pressing concerns then, a state was being engineered and attempts being made to make it into a stable and lasting setup.

The point of which Islam is important today.......
 
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The point of which Islam is important today.......

Dillinger , again you missed the important part . No sectarian violence nor any extremism/terrorism could be seen in Pakistan at such a scale before '80's , my friend . Also , Islam is a religion and like all others , has different sects and schools of thought so its not really a question , that can be answered and well be accepted by all . Live and Let Live approach is what I suggest for all , but that isn't the reality , people aren't that tolerant of others , but that wasn't always the case . A peaceful Islam , I would say , without any imposition on others . The religion came to the subcontinent by " Sufis " first and the invaders after , something you might want to think on .
 
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