Pakistani Senator calls for the development of an indigenous Nuclear Attack Submarine.

[Blue Marlin]

why dont pakistan lease the type 93 nuclear sub and order conventional variants of it and then install its own reactor in one of the subs?
china can say it wont sell the reactor but would give a conventional subt o pakistan and pakistan can install its own reactor in it.
so it would be like like 6 of the 8 subs would be a conventional s20 variants. and the final 2 would be the type 93 which one would be conventional and the other nuclear and but by that time mid 2020 youd order more .

 

[90ArsalanLeo]

Pakistan already has completed work on nuclear plants for submarines

How can u say this do u have any source of this information?

 

[Optimistic & resolute]

Edited the post however, it was discussed that Pakistan was pursuing this route through firstly working on N-reactor for this type but development halted for while back then but who knows, however behind the curtains, it was pursued again. Indeed, will take time but seems like, ground work is done or the ingredients are almost ready to go for it hence, needed to voice the matter in Parliament so at least ministry of defence will either reply the statement or will feel the pressure for budget etc. Urging for N Sub is not some overnight thought but there is reason.

The program was pursued since long and In'Sha'ALLAH we will succeed as the barriers are falling one by one and our development, growth and need not just because of threatening enemy but the safety of our assets like.CPEC/Gwader describe the dire need as such. Initially, yes we can lease Shang Class and can came up with homebuilt.

@Rashid Mahmood @Khafee @Bilal Khan 777 @Quwa @Oscar

Oscar had a thread with lot of observations, findings in this subject as well.

Yes it does exist because i was offered a chance there but didn't avail to serve nation . For that repenting now sorry for that i preferred flying abroad

 

[90ArsalanLeo]

China too is next door to India, what justifies India's nuclear submarines?

India dreams of becoming a superpowers and bringing other superpowers like USA, China etc on their knees

 

[schoolboy]

China too is next door to India, what justifies India's nuclear submarines?

Good question. I suspect the reasons is that many potential Chinese cities that could be targets are quite a distance away from potential launchpads (Delhi - Beijing is 3800 km). For launch sites in south india the distance is probably 4500 km+. Until there is sufficient confidence in the later Agni series that are 4000 km+ range a submarine that can lie undetected for long periods of time near those targets would be ideal - only an SSBN fits that.

 

[The Eagle]

PN has been interested in boomers for quite sometime, but it has to be a top tier product for PN to induct it.

They have been working on a miniature reactor, for quite some time. Within the next 12 ~ 18 months (or earlier) it will be ready for installation.

Hull: There are a couple of options:

1) To build one themselves from scratch.

2) Import pre-built sections, and assemble both foreign and domestic tech as per their requirement.

3) Have the hull built in China and have an indigenous Pakistani reactor installed.

4) Lease a sub from China, and gain capability ASAP.


Now lets explore each option in detail:

Option 1
This would be a time consuming process, with a very steep learning curve. Best to avoid it.
Before people start screaming we built the Agousta90B, please keep in mind. that assembly and manufacturing, are two different things.

Option 2
This advantage of this option would be that it will allow a very high degree of customization. But the drawback is the time required, and the "know how" could prove to be an impediment.

Option 3
This would be the shortest route to gaining a semi indigenous capability. At the same time the Pakistani reactor would also give Chinese designers something to improve upon, further cementing ties.

Option 4
PN has operated subs for more than four decades. But operating a nuclear sub is slightly different. Given the level of cooperation between PLAAF and PLA, and how PAF pilots have not only flown PLAAF aircrafts but changed their strategies and op-doctrine, it would be naive to think that this level of cooperation does not exist between the PN & PLAN. It would be safe to assume that PN personnel have spent time on PLAN nuclear subs, and are not only aware of op and tac issues, but fully understand them and have contributed +ve'ly to them.

This would be a game changer and would give PN an overnight capability, while PN exercises Option 2 or 3.

@Rashid Mahmood @The Eagle @war&peace @Horus Your comments please.

Thanks for the tag Sir. I am not an expert in this area like you and many others though I can comment on the subject through different points of view while depending upon few developments, cooperation between countries, available options involving parties and that I read and See.

Option 1 and 2 will be covered in these couple of paragraphs so IMO, no need to quote separately here.

Starting with your Option-4 first.

• Exactly, the first option than the 3rd. This option pretty much defines that how we need to start. As of now, the wheel is already invented and our friend is wholeheartedly open to us for the learning, experience and supports that if we go alone on such route, it is going to cost us high and time taking that as per current infrastructure, economical shape and threat assessment, we cannot opt for such. So, for the learning, experience and as a first step to handle such platform, PN-PLAN cooperation is very much needed as well as worthy of time. It has to be kept in mind that PN has also learnt a lot by operating different platforms and cooperation with West time to time but as stated, N thing is totally new experience and we are aware of limited access by West/US for us so no one but our dearest friend is standing with us and we trust each other. This option by leasing the sub actually grants the best chance to learn the equipment, understand the method as well as maintenance requirements and all operation learning. The core of N Sub is that having Reactor of such class in first place IMO so as said, we are already up-to that so no worries for a start of indigenization in future.

Your Option 3

• True that as this option comes as once we have a good experience to handle such equipment as discussed in above option that can lead us to have this capability by next. As said that our economics currently does allow such large expenditure to build something from scratch that too of such high class, we can start by having the heart, built by us and combine it with available material from friend, in the end to have our required Sub. We are aware that our political elite actually lacks the guts of such decisions under international diplomacy in first place and asking for totally homebuilt would be like giving them a heart attack. We have to keep in mind that current political status and constrains attached to our political government actually wouldn’t allow us to pursue such route of indigenous N-Sub so easily so we have to start by leasing first. As, unofficially, the cat of such reactor is already out of the bag so everyone is aware of situation and it tells that we only need a bit of economical support for total indigenous N-Sub in future that the time is also not far. Furthermore, Pakistan China contract of 8 subs includes that 4 will be built in China and remaining 4 in Pakistan that I see as, IMO, couple of those Subs are from unknown class however, the same is not subject here though, it is included in contract that Pakistani Personnel will be available in China during those build-ups and the few can understand that how such learning is going to help us in long term to make a team in this department for our future programs. The team present in China is not only for assembling learning but it is going to help us a lot to see, check and to have all the know how of required equipment and its quality along with quantity. I see that cooperation of both countries is going to help a lot the both friends. The sharing and learning is not a one way route but indeed, Pakistan will be sharing its expertise with China as well to help them mature their tech further as well.

Also, a bit of interesting mention that while opting the indigenous route or having the access to the tech for our own Subs, there is still a possibility, that few areas can be supported from Turkiye as we see the capability/quality for up-grade of Augosta-90b so we have good connections in this subject that we can buy from a brother and friend to have an excellent class Sub. And, if imagination has to go in further wilderness with respect learning and having expertise from another country......well.. I have to stop here.

Indeed, we are well aligned in this subject and I don’t see it too late but In’Sha’ALLAH soon as Babur-III as validated many things and highlighted the need to such platform to make sure that the capability is available by giving no time relaxation to the adversary. It is fact that such platform is not going be completed by overnight or like that as soon but one has to start by someday that will meet an end with success In’Sha’ALLAH.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

I hope we develop something like this one

Why not like these

 

[Zarvan]

Why not like these

Type 95 can be great option but picture I posted is concept of future Type 98 of China

 

[Hassan Guy]

No indigenous nuclear sub/slbm's before 2030

Yes, like no babur SLCM until 2030?

I do not mean to discourage anyone. but the industrial chain is simply too long for Pakistan, ~8000 factories to support such business.
A AIP submarine with Babur 3 is almost perfect for Pakistan.
But Pakistan can always try.

WILL try and succeed.

Not happening before 2030-32.

Like Babur SLCM was not going to happen until 2030-32

 

[EpiiC]

The biggest advantage of boomers is that they are dedicated and reliable. With nuclear armed attack subs, you always have the tension between the Strategic Forces (who want it hidden somewhere out of the way) and the Conventional ones (who want it for for immediate missions, one where the risk of detection is increased).

Setting up a nuclear deterrent on attack subs would be a major penny wise, pound foolish endeavour. If you want a Naval deterrent, then you need the real deal.

The real deal is SSBN/SLBM with 24 thermonuclear ICBM Mirved Missiles with 10 Mirv warhead so 24x10 240 warheads on this Sub would be ideal!!!

 

[sparten]

The real deal is SSBN/SLBM with 24 thermonuclear ICBM Mirved Missiles with 10 Mirv warhead so 24x10 240 warheads on this Sub would be ideal!!!

No. 12-16 launch tubes for a Shaheen III type missile would be ideal and doable.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Obviously the best option would be to build something similar to the french (considering we already operate Agosta-90b's)

Even though the French SSBN's are lighter in displacement compared to American and Russian Subs, its still far to massive of a structure for Pakistan to build and operate.

Obviously it would have to be scaled down compared to most SSBN's - but it would do the Job.
Though developing a smaller SSBN is also a stretch for Pakistan and won't be easy.

Also the SLBM would probably be a sea variant of the Shaheen series of Missiles and not an M51 ICBM.

Even this sub would still be twice the displacement as our current Agosta's MINIMUM.

 

[CriticalThought]

Good analysis!

With deep integration in defense industries (supply chain) between Pakistan and China, yes I believe Pakistan can build SSN within reasonable time period, same with SSBN. Financials also not an obstacle when security situation deems necessary. You have also mentioned, PN and PLAN share good degree of interoperability.

So it's not technical-industrial, not financial, not operation, but more of a political question: whether Pakistan wants to (or need to) possess capability of global thermonuclear strike, with a combination of SSBN + SLBM + Thermonuclear warheads. In the current scenario, Pakistan enjoys firepower supremacy over opponents (see below NTI data, Pakistan 2.1 megatons, India 1 megaton, Israel 1.6-12 megatons), challenges are capability to survive opponent's first strike, and effective delivery of firepower. PN's solutions are sound, AIP-enhanced conventional subs and hi-precision SLCM, respectively. Now none of the opponents possess firepower to destroy Pakistan, so unless the scenario is escalated to thermonuclear MAD, PN can maintain this design, gradually increase fissile stockpile (to say UK's level), increase range and precision of delivery systems, a path wouldn't inflict much burden on national economy.

Just my opinion, critics welcome my friend.

http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/india-nuclear-disarmament/
http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/pakistan-nuclear-disarmament/
http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/israel-nuclear-disarmament/
http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/united-kingdom-nuclear-disarmament/

Sir, the following points concern me:

1. India's development of 5000+ km ballistic missile. Theoretically, such a missile could be mounted on a submarine. That means India's second strike capability can lurk thousands of kms away from our reach. On the other hand, our subs will be confined in a small area, thus giving India better chance to find and attack them.

2. India's development of anti-ballistic missile technology in cooperation with Israel. I totally expect the India/Israel nexus to achieve the capability to locate ballistic missile launches within Pakistani territory as they happen. A ballistic missile launch is an 'event' and it create a huge trace that can be picked up by various means (radar, satellite, etc.) Any reasonable anti-ballistic system will seek to take the missile out of the picture at the earliest point. That means India's full might will be used against factories, storage silos, mobile vehicles, launch pads, and early stages of the missile while it is in Pakistani territory. In such a scenario, we need to develop extremely long range cruise missile technology that can be fired from subs thousands of miles away.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Type 95 can be great option but picture I posted is concept of future Type 98 of China

Type 95 can fulfill all the needs of Pakistan + it's gonna be cheaper then Type 98

 

[Panther 57]

Sir, the following points concern me:

1. India's development of 5000+ km ballistic missile. Theoretically, such a missile could be mounted on a submarine. That means India's second strike capability can lurk thousands of kms away from our reach. On the other hand, our subs will be confined in a small area, thus giving India better chance to find and attack them.

2. India's development of anti-ballistic missile technology in cooperation with Israel. I totally expect the India/Israel nexus to achieve the capability to locate ballistic missile launches within Pakistani territory as they happen. A ballistic missile launch is an 'event' and it create a huge trace that can be picked up by various means (radar, satellite, etc.) Any reasonable anti-ballistic system will seek to take the missile out of the picture at the earliest point. That means India's full might will be used against factories, storage silos, mobile vehicles, launch pads, and early stages of the missile while it is in Pakistani territory. In such a scenario, we need to develop extremely long range cruise missile technology that can be fired from subs thousands of miles away.

Nuclear weapon is also called as WMD it doesnot have to target factories and storage silos.

On topic my comments