Pakistani Senator calls for the development of an indigenous Nuclear Attack Submarine.

[EpiiC]

No. 12-16 launch tubes for a Shaheen III type missile would be ideal and doable.

Shaheen III sea variant? Our missile range is always poor!!!

 

[CriticalThought]

Nuclear weapon is also called as WMD it doesnot have to target factories and storage silos.

On topic my comments

You are misunderstanding my concern. I am saying India will try to target the delivery platform of nuclear warhead, i.e., the missile, at its earliest stage via conventional weapons by attacking the very source. What good is a warhead without a delivery platform?

 

[EpiiC]

Sir, the following points concern me:

1. India's development of 5000+ km ballistic missile. Theoretically, such a missile could be mounted on a submarine. That means India's second strike capability can lurk thousands of kms away from our reach. On the other hand, our subs will be confined in a small area, thus giving India better chance to find and attack them.

2. India's development of anti-ballistic missile technology in cooperation with Israel. I totally expect the India/Israel nexus to achieve the capability to locate ballistic missile launches within Pakistani territory as they happen. A ballistic missile launch is an 'event' and it create a huge trace that can be picked up by various means (radar, satellite, etc.) Any reasonable anti-ballistic system will seek to take the missile out of the picture at the earliest point. That means India's full might will be used against factories, storage silos, mobile vehicles, launch pads, and early stages of the missile while it is in Pakistani territory. In such a scenario, we need to develop extremely long range cruise missile technology that can be fired from subs thousands of miles away.

An ABM doesn't need to outrun it's target, it just needs to be fast enough to meet that target. India has radars that cover whole of Pakistan plus their satellites have Pak covered.... Even Israel has 1500km Nuclear Tipped SLCM which has whole Pak Covered.... Indias ABM will intercept many of Pakistans Missiles due to lack of Mirv!!

No. 12-16 launch tubes for a Shaheen III type missile would be ideal and doable.

Atomic warhead or thermonuclear warhead? Yeild of each Warhead?

 

[CriticalThought]

An ABM doesn't need to outrun it's target, it just needs to be fast enough to meet that target. India has radars that cover whole of Pakistan plus their satellites have Pak covered.... Even Israel has 1500km Nuclear Tipped SLCM which has whole Pak Covered.... Indias ABM will intercept many of Pakistans Missiles due to lack of Mirv!!


Atomic warhead or thermonuclear warhead? Yeild of each Warhead?

A top-notch anti-Ballistic Missile strategy will seek to destroy the missile at its earliest stage.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Sir, the following points concern me:

1. India's development of 5000+ km ballistic missile. Theoretically, such a missile could be mounted on a submarine. That means India's second strike capability can lurk thousands of kms away from our reach. On the other hand, our subs will be confined in a small area, thus giving India better chance to find and attack them.

2. India's development of anti-ballistic missile technology in cooperation with Israel. I totally expect the India/Israel nexus to achieve the capability to locate ballistic missile launches within Pakistani territory as they happen. A ballistic missile launch is an 'event' and it create a huge trace that can be picked up by various means (radar, satellite, etc.) Any reasonable anti-ballistic system will seek to take the missile out of the picture at the earliest point. That means India's full might will be used against factories, storage silos, mobile vehicles, launch pads, and early stages of the missile while it is in Pakistani territory. In such a scenario, we need to develop extremely long range cruise missile technology that can be fired from subs thousands of miles away.

1. You got a point, it's not easy for PN to hunt down Indian subs either, that's why what PN building now is a deterrent, a second strike capability. Strategically speaking, it's not in either side's favor to use nuke in any form of pre-emptive style first strike, cos then the other side can launch retaliation.

2. Indian side has smaller nuclear stockpile than Pakistan, total yield only 1 megaton. Their ballistic missiles have limited accuracy (check CEP) compared to Pakistan's SLCM, hence less effective against reinforced targets let alone subs, and their 15-20 kt warheads can only inflict limited damage. In fact I find Agni tipped with 15-20 kt fissile warhead, which is considered as tactical nuke only, a very strange phenomenon, when one 094 SSBN has firepower to annihilate half of India. Pakistan enjoys overall firepower supremacy (2.1 megaton vs 1 megaton), together with AIP subs and long-rang hi-precision SLCM, this combination can effectively deter Delhi. Talking about range, the more the merrier, and that's what PN should focus on, range of both AIP subs and SLCM.

Contrary to SSBN which is an over-kill as deterrent, the possibility of inducting SSN exists if PN doctrine is to go hunt Indian subs, i.e. use SSN in conventional ASW to suppress/neutralize Indian first strike capability, not use as deterrent.

 

[CriticalThought]

1. You got a point, it's not easy for PN ti hunt down Indian subs either, that's why what PN building now is a deterrent, a second strike capability. Strategically speaking, it's not in either side's favor to use nuke in any form of pre-emptive style first strike, cos then the other side can launch retaliation.

2. Indian side has smaller nuclear stockpile than Pakistan, total yield only 1 megaton. Their ballistic missiles have limited accuracy compared to Pakistan's SLCM, hence less effective against reinforced targets let alone subs, and their 15-20 kt warheads can only inflict limited damage. Pakistan enjoys overall firepower supremacy, together with AIP subs and long-rang hi-precision SLCM, this combination can effectively deter Delhi. Talking about range, the more the merrier, and that's what PN should focus on, range of both AIP subs and SLCM.

Thanks. The best range + loiter time is available only with nuclear subs.

 

[Panther 57]

You are misunderstanding my concern. I am saying India will try to target the delivery platform of nuclear warhead, i.e., the missile, at its earliest stage via conventional weapons by attacking the very source. What good is a warhead without a delivery platform?

Had it been easy to target platforms or source through conventional or nuclear weapon, US would have done it long time ago. My statement is based on certain facts.

 

[CriticalThought]

Had it been easy to target platforms or source through conventional or nuclear weapon, US would have done it long time ago. My statement is based on certain facts.

Once all out war erupts, all gloves are off. And US/Israel will gladly take the opportunity to participate in the conflict (overtly or covertly) to cause maximum damage. That is the whole point of having a credible second attack.

 

[Panther 57]

agreed yet i stand by my opinion

Once all out war erupts, all gloves are off. And US/Israel will gladly take the opportunity to participate in the conflict (overtly or covertly) to cause maximum damage. That is the whole point of having a credible second attack.

 

[Khafee]

Thanks for the tag Sir. I am not an expert in this area like you and many others though I can comment on the subject through different points of view while depending upon few developments, cooperation between countries, available options involving parties and that I read and See.

Option 1 and 2 will be covered in these couple of paragraphs so IMO, no need to quote separately here.

Starting with your Option-4 first.

• Exactly, the first option than the 3rd. This option pretty much defines that how we need to start. As of now, the wheel is already invented and our friend is wholeheartedly open to us for the learning, experience and supports that if we go alone on such route, it is going to cost us high and time taking that as per current infrastructure, economical shape and threat assessment, we cannot opt for such. So, for the learning, experience and as a first step to handle such platform, PN-PLAN cooperation is very much needed as well as worthy of time. It has to be kept in mind that PN has also learnt a lot by operating different platforms and cooperation with West time to time but as stated, N thing is totally new experience and we are aware of limited access by West/US for us so no one but our dearest friend is standing with us and we trust each other. This option by leasing the sub actually grants the best chance to learn the equipment, understand the method as well as maintenance requirements and all operation learning. The core of N Sub is that having Reactor of such class in first place IMO so as said, we are already up-to that so no worries for a start of indigenization in future.

Your Option 3

• True that as this option comes as once we have a good experience to handle such equipment as discussed in above option that can lead us to have this capability by next. As said that our economics currently does allow such large expenditure to build something from scratch that too of such high class, we can start by having the heart, built by us and combine it with available material from friend, in the end to have our required Sub. We are aware that our political elite actually lacks the guts of such decisions under international diplomacy in first place and asking for totally homebuilt would be like giving them a heart attack. We have to keep in mind that current political status and constrains attached to our political government actually wouldn’t allow us to pursue such route of indigenous N-Sub so easily so we have to start by leasing first. As, unofficially, the cat of such reactor is already out of the bag so everyone is aware of situation and it tells that we only need a bit of economical support for total indigenous N-Sub in future that the time is also not far. Furthermore, Pakistan China contract of 8 subs includes that 4 will be built in China and remaining 4 in Pakistan that I see as, IMO, couple of those Subs are from unknown class however, the same is not subject here though, it is included in contract that Pakistani Personnel will be available in China during those build-ups and the few can understand that how such learning is going to help us in long term to make a team in this department for our future programs. The team present in China is not only for assembling learning but it is going to help us a lot to see, check and to have all the know how of required equipment and its quality along with quantity. I see that cooperation of both countries is going to help a lot the both friends. The sharing and learning is not a one way route but indeed, Pakistan will be sharing its expertise with China as well to help them mature their tech further as well.

Also, a bit of interesting mention that while opting the indigenous route or having the access to the tech for our own Subs, there is still a possibility, that few areas can be supported from Turkiye as we see the capability/quality for up-grade of Augosta-90b so we have good connections in this subject that we can buy from a brother and friend to have an excellent class Sub. And, if imagination has to go in further wilderness with respect learning and having expertise from another country......well.. I have to stop here.

Indeed, we are well aligned in this subject and I don’t see it too late but In’Sha’ALLAH soon as Babur-III as validated many things and highlighted the need to such platform to make sure that the capability is available by giving no time relaxation to the adversary. It is fact that such platform is not going be completed by overnight or like that as soon but one has to start by someday that will meet an end with success In’Sha’ALLAH.

Since you brought up Turkey, this is where Turkey could possibly fit into PN's sub manufacturing program, keeping in mind budget constraints, and anti-Pakistan elements.

Once Option 3, and then Option 4 have been exercised, Option 2 is where Turkey could possibly play a role. Augusta upgrades are fine, but in the context of next gen boomers, Turkey needs to bring to the table something China does not have. And that is a very tall order.

Nonetheless if it does, that tech could be shared with China and incorporated in future Chinese subs as well, with Turkish consent. It's a very delicate balancing act, that will have to be extremely well thought of. Something SPD & PN are quite capable of.

For now, the Turks,with all due respect, do not bring anything new to the table. PN has to look at not only the sub but the missiles, the surveillance / comm / beidou sat access, the availability of parts, the capability to lease platforms - THE complete package. Very big shoes to fill for the Turks.

Best Regards

 

[Hassan Guy]

I hope we develop something like this one

24 SLBM's is quite a lot, 12 would do just fine.

 

[Basel]

I hope we develop something like this one

Is it quiet enough to avoid detection from ASW platforms specially from MPAs which IN have?

 

[IceCold]

Contrary to SSBN which is an over-kill as deterrent, the possibility of inducting SSN exists if PN doctrine is to go hunt Indian subs.

Overkill is what makes it so much fun. Something that would not give enemies nightmares and heart attacks but they die so others can live peacefully in the region and beyond.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Overkill is what makes it so much fun. Something that would not give enemies nightmares and heart attacks but they die so others can live peacefully in the region and beyond.

LOL ... good one!

 

[IceCold]

I do not mean to discourage anyone. but the industrial chain is simply too long for Pakistan, ~8000 factories to support such business.

Perhaps but if need arises important stuff can always be acquired from a time tested friend.