Pakistani Hindus, Sikhs migrate to India seek citizenship: Al jazeera doc

[Icewolf]

Give them all citizenship.

Then they will cry when they have to do a pilgrimage to Lahore or Baochistan or something.

 

[Contrarian]

This goes both ways:

Gujarat textbooks have anti-Muslim contents, portray Hitler as hero | ummid.com
Indian school textbooks to be scrapped because of anti muslim bias | World news | The Guardian

My point is India feels it has some moral standing in this regard or is better when it is actually not. We both have to work at home to improve the condition of minorities. You are right about the black blasphemy laws. We will repeal them-do not think there are no secularists in Pakistan. We will bring Pakistan back to where it is supposed to be. I already talked about Pakistani society being much more open than it looks like. It is your pre-conceived notion that I can't demand an end to the blasphemy laws without being killed.

Did you even see the examples you posted? One example was from 2004, and in that same example it was clearly written that the then new GoI would rewrite the books! While the other example from Gujarat is a vague reference of about 2 lines from a BA course! Not even a Central University?

Do you realize that despite your attempts to portray India at the same level as Pakistan when it comes to minority affairs and tolerance, it is actually far better than Pakistan. The difference is such that Pakistan can not even be mentioned in the same line.
Did you see that in the above example, the Govt was keen to change the problem? It was not pushed under a rug? We are better because we realize there is a problem and go about trying to change it. In Pakistan, the problem is never accepted, and if accepted, the blame is put on some other non Pakistani entity.

We are far better than Pakistan, yet we try to change and be better. I can give an example, do you know that per capita rape in Pakistan is much higher than in India? Yet Indians hang their heads and have mass protests over rape in India, and to think Pakistani's come and laugh over this! Do you see a fundamental difference in Indians and Pakistani's attitudes?

Salman Taseer's soul among others is turning in its grave at listening to you saying that people can demand an end to blasphemy laws in person and in camera without getting killed!

 

[Icewolf]

In Indians textbooks it is told that meat eaters are killers, murderers, theifs, and criminals

 

[Azazel]

Jinnah was secular throughout his life and in congress promoting unity between 2 throughout till up to early 40's. By then he realized a lot of you people had no commitment to solving the issues and were too communal by nature like many of you Indians are today.

The two nation theory was correct not because Muslims and Hindus are vastly dissimilar and can't live in one country together but because there was bias, oppression and discrimination. There still is. For example the ban on cow slaughter, Muslim proportion in jails (48%), issues in celebration of eid, Hindu rules are being imposed. So he was right. In Lucknow with a huge muslim population I couldn't find a single place with beef-even dominoes and pizza hut have like only chicken dishes. Then we asked for self-rule for Muslim areas and separate electorates. We just needed that extra bit of space and security which was denied by India. That is why Pakistan happened.

It is not necessary to support secularism and argue against the 2 nation theory. India's failure to be secular is proof enough.

The Bias was due to the British policies of divide and rule.It was deliberately done by British administrators to divide the population among communal line.The whole policy was started in Ireland and even now cities like Belfast is a good example such policies.I cannot understand why your obsession with beef.Its not a Hindu law its a law out of necessity.I must also ask you did ever find any hotel in Lucknow which served pork.When you come to a city you must respect culinary habit of its people.Lack of beef in India by no means a justification for the creation of Pakistan.If Pakistanis think like that then it too naive of them.

India is a young nation,the notion of secularism in this part of the world is new.We have not failed in secularism,In fact we have prevailed against many odds.Do you see an India run by religious pundits.That will never happen.It took centuries for Europe and America to undergo a secularization and its still a work in progress.I think at the end Indian secularism will be unique in its own way.

You can't blame the muslims. But I believe it is the reason why partition had to happen. All Indian posters (most) have a communal mindset-you wouldn't have let us live in peace and we learned that anyway so we came to Pakistan.

Here comes the victim card.No blame on Muslims,blame everything on the rest of the world.pathetic.

You wouldn't even have known about this had I not highlighted this... now you are using it against my own point. Did you see the date of the resignation letter. 1950? Exactly. Jinnah died in 48 and it all went downhill from there. He was a very loyal servant of Jinnah and served as first chairman of constituent assembly. He has been in muslim league since its most secular days in 43.

I am aware of that.I only meant he put his bet on the wrong horse.He should have known he will have no place in Pakistan after Jinnah.And history proved it.

It is not the fault of the state's maker. Islamic republic was never attached to our name until Ayub Khan came. He resigned an year after the objectives resolution by Liaquat Ali Khan in 49. Stop blaming our leaders and look within. Nehru's hard headedness and his wish to become PM of India got in the way. There was a way to avoid partition.
NC.

Listen,You people welcomed the tag of "Islamic" republic.This was always coming.When a country was formed in a religious line,Religion will always play a huge role.This was only a matter of time.I accept Nehru's hardline policies was a cause of partition, but so does Jinnah's.Both of them played a huge.I don't think the partition was avoidable.Even if Both Congress and Muslim League found a compromise solution the rift between both parties will inevitably widen and country will eventually break apart.How can a federation succeed when its citizens have separate electorate based on religion and its provinces have the right to secede.This was a chemistry for catastrophe.

 

[Anees]

Now were is mR rehman malik ...???

 

[Contrarian]

In Indians textbooks it is told that meat eaters are killers, murderers, theifs, and criminals

Gotta love that. At least half the Hindus are meat eaters!
Nothing to do with Islam or Scientology!


Plus i know your a troll but i'll still educate you.

It was NOT a textbook. It was a private guide book. Nothing to do whatsoever with school text books.

As i said, unlike Pakistan, we dont teach our children hate.

 

[haviZsultan]

Did you even see the examples you posted? One example was from 2004, and in that same example it was clearly written that the then new GoI would rewrite the books! While the other example from Gujarat is a vague reference of about 2 lines from a BA course! Not even a Central University?

In one post you have revealed the entire problem. Do note what I say is also because an innocent woman I knew was murdered, maybe raped and an entire family killed in Hyderabad, Deccan. It happened in Afzalganj in exact same locality as Osmania. It is a pity that when our families and those of the migrants that moved forgot this and took a part in the ethnic tensions prevalent locally. They should have merged as Sindhis as I did as a Pashtun but that is another debate entirely.

You want me to accept India is better than Pakistan in this matter. I will not.

Comparisons should be banned for this reason as they divert us from finding solutions. I hope @WebMaster looks into how comparisons kill the debate and announces a ban on it or other members such as @muse, @Aeronaut and @Safriz can help me with it. I will send a message in this regard with some other suggestions to webbie.

This is what kills the debate. Your purpose is to prove India is better in this regard. I do not believe so. But why compare rather than improve the nation? This is the issue.

Do you realize that despite your attempts to portray India at the same level as Pakistan when it comes to minority affairs and tolerance, it is actually far better than Pakistan. The difference is such that Pakistan can not even be mentioned in the same line.

You waste my time with lousy comparisons. Pakistan is a nation at war. 79% of all violent deaths in 2011 in south asia occurred here and 99% were Muslims. I admit the situation for minorities is horrible but despite not being from the minority community you are trying to speak on their behalf and say they are doing great and are better than so and so? This is the entire issue... you aren't willing to accept mistakes.

Did you see that in the above example, the Govt was keen to change the problem? It was not pushed under a rug? We are better because we realize there is a problem and go about trying to change it. In Pakistan, the problem is never accepted, and if accepted, the blame is put on some other non Pakistani entity.

Read this. 2012:
BBC News - India textbook says meat-eaters lie and commit sex crimes

I read Indian textbooks in 2006 and still found the problem. Mughal sacrifices for the land were reduced, Marathas were treated like they were fighting barbarian Muslims. Have you read any history book-I can send you one highlighted with all that is wrong. I am not saying Pakistan is better but we secularists at least accept the issue. Never seen one Indian do the same. Even @KRAIT.

We are far better than Pakistan, yet we try to change and be better. I can give an example, do you know that per capita rape in Pakistan is much higher than in India? Yet Indians hang their heads and have mass protests over rape in India, and to think Pakistani's come and laugh over this! Do you see a fundamental difference in Indians and Pakistani's attitudes?

What must I do to prove my loyalty to Pakistani hindus... designing their campaigns, promising total support is not enough?:

There are secularists left in this great land... we will not let secular thought fall.

Salman Taseer's soul among others is turning in its grave at listening to you saying that people can demand an end to blasphemy laws in person and in camera without getting killed!

Do you understand the difference between a nation that is at war and one that is at peace? This is a temporary, transitory phase. India passed through it too with the babri riots, the gujarat riots, kandhamal riots too... you fought a war with Sikh separatists in 1984. We could have said India is the worst place for minorities and let our preconceived notions come in the way.

And please no more Fateh type self-righteousness and speeches. I realize being in the think tank means that to protect my position I may have to ensure I do not offend Indians-I do my best not to out of general courtesy not to protect my position but there are experiences I had myself while there. I am not here to protect my position as think tank. I am a nationalist before anything. Comparisons are insecurity speaking. It is here that the Hindutva mindset is speaking rather than anything else... you are communal by nature. Your media has bashed Pakistan for years and you do not know that things are not as bad as they seem, there are those left who fight societal norms and ideals.

We remain to rectify our mistakes and believe it is our duty to do so. Do note I could have said India is worse. I did not say so.

In Indians textbooks it is told that meat eaters are killers, murderers, theifs, and criminals

Share some anecdotes from Gujarat sometimes. My dozen+ visits were transitory not permanent. Only one was longer. Are you really from Gujarat or you were joking because you think I am ideologically confused or foolish?

 

[Contrarian]

You want me to accept India is better than Pakistan in this matter. I will not.

Comparisons should be banned for this reason as they divert us from finding solutions. I hope

Comparisons can often serve as markers to show the way where others have fared better than us. Has not your election commission looked to EC of India for looking at best methods among other things? Your Supreme Court at SC of India?

This is what kills the debate. Your purpose is to prove India is better in this regard. I do not believe so. But why compare rather than improve the nation? This is the issue.

I would agree to your point that i could or rather most definitely should have posted in a less provocative way. The world agree's to the fact that India is far better than Pakistan when it comes to minorities, many Pakistani intellectuals also agree to a problem of radicalization of the Pakistani muslim society. So comparisons with India can serve a useful indicator. At no point i say that India is without flaws or problem. My contention is that we have moved far ahead in this issue than Pakistan. Our society far less divided than Pakistan - despite hosting a diversity astronomically more than Pakistan does.

Read this. 2012:
BBC News - India textbook says meat-eaters lie and commit sex crimes

I read Indian textbooks in 2006 and still found the problem. Mughal sacrifices for the land were reduced, Marathas were treated like they were fighting barbarian Muslims. Have you read any history book-I can send you one highlighted with all that is wrong. I am not saying Pakistan is better but we secularists at least accept the issue. Never seen one Indian do the same. Even KRAIT

Actually BBC got it wrong as well. It is not a text book. It is as my last post also mentioned - a private guide book. It is in no way affiliated with any school board of India.
You would be happy to know that Mughals are simply treated as Indians in school text books. They are not painted as foreigners. The early rulers are referred to as foreigners. The rest are all completely mentioned as Indian. And prominent among them is Akbar - referred to in textbooks as Akbar the Great - who created an amazingly efficient and durable administrative system, while the attrocities committed by Aurangzed are skipped over entirely!

What must I do to prove my loyalty to Pakistani hindus... designing their campaigns, promising total support is not enough?:

There are secularists left in this great land... we will not let secular thought fall.

To this i would only mention...I wish there were tens of millions of people like you that were in the majority in Pakistan.
There is something that has changed your society from a liberal tolerant society of the 60's to what it is now.

What i do find in reality is that the majority consists of those who run after to kill a girl accused to tearing a page of the Koran, or even the highly educated lawyers showering rose petals on the killer of Salman Taseer, whose only crime was to say that Blasphemy laws must go !

Do you understand the difference between a nation that is at war and one that is at peace? This is a temporary, transitory phase. India passed through it too with the babri riots, the gujarat riots, kandhamal riots too... you fought a war with Sikh separatists in 1984. We could have said India is the worst place for minorities and let our preconceived notions come in the way.

Yes, India has gone through that phase, and the reason we came out of it was because we learnt not to promote hatred against any minority! 80's and 90's were a defining period of time for India. Therefore you see that our text books and our anthems - all say celebrate diversity. This is the anti-thesis of what is done in Pakistan currently.
All lessons learnt during 80's and 90's.

 

[Icewolf]

Share some anecdotes from Gujarat sometimes. My dozen+ visits were transitory not permanent. Only one was longer. Are you really from Gujarat or you were joking because you think I am ideologically confused or foolish?

First of all - I said Im from Gujarat to a certain member of this forum one day.

It was PURELY personal

I do not gloat over that I am from Gujarat

Some morons tried to do personal attack on me hearing Im from Gujarat, and now everyone in this forums knows something which is suposed to PURELY personal to me.

Btw I never said I was from Gujarat to you...

 

[haviZsultan]

Comparisons can often serve as markers to show the way where others have fared better than us. Has not your election commission looked to EC of India for looking at best methods among other things? Your Supreme Court at SC of India?

I would agree to your point that i could or rather most definitely should have posted in a less provocative way. The world agree's to the fact that India is far better than Pakistan when it comes to minorities, many Pakistani intellectuals also agree to a problem of radicalization of the Pakistani muslim society. So comparisons with India can serve a useful indicator. At no point i say that India is without flaws or problem. My contention is that we have moved far ahead in this issue than Pakistan. Our society far less divided than Pakistan - despite hosting a diversity astronomically more than Pakistan does.

Actually BBC got it wrong as well. It is not a text book. It is as my last post also mentioned - a private guide book. It is in no way affiliated with any school board of India.
You would be happy to know that Mughals are simply treated as Indians in school text books. They are not painted as foreigners. The early rulers are referred to as foreigners. The rest are all completely mentioned as Indian. And prominent among them is Akbar - referred to in textbooks as Akbar the Great - who created an amazingly efficient and durable administrative system, while the attrocities committed by Aurangzed are skipped over entirely!

To this i would only mention...I wish there were tens of millions of people like you that were in the majority in Pakistan.
There is something that has changed your society from a liberal tolerant society of the 60's to what it is now.

What i do find in reality is that the majority consists of those who run after to kill a girl accused to tearing a page of the Koran, or even the highly educated lawyers showering rose petals on the killer of Salman Taseer, whose only crime was to say that Blasphemy laws must go !

Yes, India has gone through that phase, and the reason we came out of it was because we learnt not to promote hatred against any minority! 80's and 90's were a defining period of time for India. Therefore you see that our text books and our anthems - all say celebrate diversity. This is the anti-thesis of what is done in Pakistan currently.
All lessons learnt during 80's and 90's.

I agree largely with a lot of things you have said and disagree with a number as well though for the most part I agree. Let us work together to resolve this menace. Also there is a proportional rise in violence against Muslims/Hindus in India/Pakistan as relations get worse.

Let me explain my views further. I refuse to believe India is better in this regard because of issues the Ansari family had in the Deccan. We are Ansars from the Firangi mahal house (you can google it and find out-we later settled in lucknow but moved from barabanki and Afghanistan before that).

See I would have no issue believing India is better in this. I am not very stuck up about such things. But you see the thing is I saw some of the issues in my work with Sufferers Witness and we ourselves moved crying, wailing families caught up in violence after Gujarat (Gujarat covers only losses in Gujarat and it was a demand that it cover the effects of riots in other places too where they were sparked because of gujarat. There were some in Hyderabad too.).

When Sana bajis surviving family members went to police station to file report they were told to keep their mouths shut and keep quiet on threat of dire consequences. They were jailed for reporting a murder of their family member. Very callous. Then when they went to courts they were told go to Pakistan. Now we saw that riots caused massive life damage in hyderabad after gujarat and it was in afjalganj and ajampura localities particularly. But other day the newspapers only said 14 wounded when people had been killed.

So from this experience I would not really say that Indian media and police and judiciary are unbiased. I noticed these things distantly but it makes me wary of the Indian media and institutions and what is reported or how much is reported. I mean the same thing probably happens to lots of Hindus in Pakistan too. For example the Rinkle case was a travesty of justice.

Maybe those things and that long work in sufferers witness made me a little wary about believed Indian news when it said something but then maybe I wouldn't respect Hindus and other minorities so much either if I hadn't seen how traumatic these experiences can be. Those families that I talked about are now in Pakistan. Even both my parents were born in Lucknow.

So I do not personally believe India is better. That is my choice I guess but I am still being as neutral as possible. I have never seen Indian media raise such issues except the Tehelka crew. I believe a lot more happens that is ignored.

The point is really both countries have the same issue... you are free to believe it is not on the same scale (Do note Hindus and Sikhs are rich in Pakistan while Muslims are poor in India (their literacy 10% lower)-I am not trying to say it is all good for the Hindus here and there is no persecution here-there is severe persecution especially in some cases of blasphemy-but it is thought provoking to look at this side as well). It is a preconceived notion in India that every Hindu is oppressed. I talked to a friend named Mohan Lal and he expressed no issue. I said "yaar, kuch toh hoga"-purposely said "yeh muslim buhut zaalim hotey hain" to provoke a reaction. He was like nothing-no problem. Even said "he was happy with the rights given"... I said maybe you should ask for repeal of blasphemy law. He said "blasphemy law hurts our muslim brothers-but it should apply to both Hindu and Muslims) So there can be a Hindu who does not even believe he is persecuted.

I think it is time for both nations to improve things at home for their minorities. It is a must for growth.

 

[KS]

There is no point arguing with the Pakistanis that they are slowly wiping out the Hindus and Sikhs from their lands. From their POV they are just making the land of pure a bit more purer.

The only solution to this problem is negotiating with the Pak Gov and reaching a one time re-settlement plan for the Hindus and Sikhs there and allow them inside India so that they can continue their life without the constant fear of persecution.

Agreed, they will find it a bit tough in the beginning because of the new environment and that they have to start from the scratch..but the Govt can chip in and help them establish themselves.

This is a win-win proposition for both India and Pakistan. Pakistan gets to rid itself of the Hindus and Sikhs and India , well basically gets to do its moral duty of looking out for the subcontinental Hindus and Sikhs.

 

[haviZsultan]

First of all - I said Im from Gujarat to a certain member of this forum one day.

It was PURELY personal

I do not gloat over that I am from Gujarat

Some morons tried to do personal attack on me hearing Im from Gujarat, and now everyone in this forums knows something which is suposed to PURELY personal to me.

Btw I never said I was from Gujarat to you...

Whatever you do don't call yourself a Muhajir. My relatives that moved already made their mistake and we are paying the price with the MQM-merge with the local communities as that is the best option. I gave same advise to victims who came from other parts through Pakistani charity Sufferers Witness-repatriation program. Whatever happened is your personal matter. Forget your grievances with the Hindus and make your new nation strong. Don't fall at the gates of religious and ethnic hatred.

That is the best option-do not call yourself a muhajir (its we who want to maintain that identity-no one else-my family is like that too but I rejected it). Just an advise. Otherwise we play into ethnic tensions. Personally we should just have called ourselves Pakistani-no need for ethnic identity.

We are not a separate community. Merger or reasserting old identity is best. Gujarati or Lucknowi or Hyderabadi. That is ok too.

 

[KS]

MQM is the only true secular party in Pakistan and I hope the Hindus in Sindh support Altaf bhai.

PPP and ANP are a bit secular too..but I feel MQM is the best.

 

[INDIC]

Whatever you do don't call yourself a Muhajir. My relatives that moved already made their mistake and we are paying the price with the MQM-merge with the local communities as that is the best option. I gave same advise to victims who came from other parts through Pakistani charity Sufferers Witness-repatriation program. Whatever happened is your personal matter. Forget your grievances with the Hindus and make your new nation strong. Don't fall at the gates of religious and ethnic hatred.

That is the best option-do not call yourself a muhajir (its we who want to maintain that identity-no one else-my family is like that too but I rejected it). Just an advise. Otherwise we play into ethnic tensions. Personally we should just have called ourselves Pakistani-no need for ethnic identity.

We are not a separate community. Merger or reasserting old identity is best. Gujarati or Lucknowi or Hyderabadi. That is ok too.

So, you basically claiming Indian Muslims are migrating to Pakistan.

 

[MST]

Pakistan govt. shall respect re-location request of the willing.


If Pakistan can import Muslims from India and inhabit them in Karachi/Hyderabad than Indians shall show some heart for their brethren in Pakistan.

HaHa. Didn't the Indian Muslims reject you guys in 1947 ? What makes you think they will go to you now?