Pakistan will soon get J10

[sancho]

Tell me, what is so Special about Rafale?

Please tell. And by tell me, not the paper specs but real scenarios....combat roles???

There is a lot of things that makes it special, but to make it clearer, a single Rafale can enter enemy airspace, low with it's terrain avoiding capabilities and in passive mode, which makes it very hard to detect for any enemy fighters. It can detect the JF 17 B1 or F16B52 radars or their EM signatures at long range thanks to SPECTRA and puts itself in a position to not be detected itself and close in. In a range between 60 an 80Km it can launch up to 4 x MICA missiles (preferable the IR which are passive and will be hard to detect) to air targets and 6 x AASM to 6 x different ground targets (with a precision of 1m), turns around and gets back with supercruise speed. All this simultaneously within seconds an without using the radar! ! !

To do the a similar scenario with J10, AAMs and LS-6 for example, PAF would need:

- 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 2 x BVR missiles (to take on 4 x air targets)
- 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 3 x LS 6 PGMs (to take on 6 x ground targets, with dedicated attack runs)

More fighters = increased radar detectability
Active missile cueing = increased ESM detectability
Big engine and no SC = increased IR detectability
No propulsion for LS 6 = dedicated attack runs to strike targets = longer time in enemy airspace = increased vulnerability
Limited self defence capability for strike fighters (WVR missiles only) = escorts needed

That alone should make clear that there is a performance difference between Rafale and a J10, simply by design, avionics or weapon capabilities and before you ask, yes most of these capabilities were even proven with the current versions of Rafale during Afghanistan, Libya wars or exercises like Redflag or ATLC in the UAE.

So Rafale indeed is a very good and especially very balanced fighter, but I don't agree with Abingdonboy general statement that the Eurocanards are not comparable and simply superior. The EF for example has very limited A2G capabilities so far, which makes it inferior to J10 in this field. You simply can't generalise it and has to compare the different fighters and their individual capabilities and roles with eachother, but since neither J10B, nor EF T3B are developed yet, it's mainly speculation anyway.

Look at its this way..
Can the J-10B's under-testing radar match the range of the rafale's RBE-2 radar ..yes

Any source for this? Afaik there are still rumors about a PESA radar and not an AESA, so where did you get ranges from?

 

[Akasa]

The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.

+ certainly not the versions that competed in MMRCA ie the EFT T3 and Rafale F3 with AESA, super cruise, HMDS etc

Buddy, China has been deploying AESA radar on airborne, shipborne, and ground based platforms while Europe was still marketing its first AESA radars, that, may I mention, never made it on any of their airborne systems. China's companies built multiple different AESA radars already of all sizes, and in fact they are of such abundance that all 4.5 generation fighters like the J-10B, J-11B, and J-15 uses a competition process to select the radar.

And again, it seems that you have missed out that the J-10B incorporates a serious amount of upgraded and solid state integrated electronics, radar absorbent material, composites, new generation cockpit. All of the fancy catchings are like the ones seen on the latest Rafale variants and Eurofighter Typhoon variants, and to a greater extent. For example, the AESA radar mounted on the J-10B features 1200 individual T/R modules according to its company, and so far the highest figure I saw for the Rafale's RBE-2 radar is 880.

Chinese companies, may I remind you, already built a fifth generation jet fighter. Europe is still importing one.

 

[sancho]

Chinese companies, may I remind you, already built a fifth generation jet fighter. Europe is still importing one.

China is developing a 5th gen fighter because it has the money and needs it to defend itself against the US and their allies. Europeans has stealth developments for years, but the cold war is over and even the Eurocanards have lost their initial opponents (one reason why the EF won't be upgraded to full potential anymore).
Same goes for the AESA points, Europe has AESA radars even for fighters available, while China is still trying to develop comparable puls doppler radars for their fighters...
You are confusing Chinas good pace of developments, with the edge Europe has in terms of experience and knowledge. With the same ammount of money and the need to develop such fighters, they would be on par with the US, while China is still trying to catch up to Russia in terms of design, engines or even radars. China is the future, but these countries are the present!

 

[Donatello]

There is a lot of things that makes it special, but to make it clearer, a single Rafale can enter enemy airspace, low with it's terrain avoiding capabilities and in passive mode, which makes it very hard to detect for any enemy fighters. It can detect the JF 17 B1 or F16B52 radars or their EM signatures at long range thanks to SPECTRA and puts itself in a position to not be detected itself and close in. In a range between 60 an 80Km it can launch up to 4 x MICA missiles (preferable the IR which are passive and will be hard to detect) to air targets and 6 x AASM to 6 x different ground targets (with a precision of 1m), turns around and gets back with supercruise speed. All this simultaneously within seconds an without using the radar! ! !

To do the a similar scenario with J10, AAMs and LS-6 for example, PAF would need:

- 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 2 x BVR missiles (to take on 4 x air targets)
- 2 x J10s with 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x WVR and 3 x LS 6 PGMs (to take on 6 x ground targets, with dedicated attack runs)

More fighters = increased radar detectability
Active missile cueing = increased ESM detectability
Big engine and no SC = increased IR detectability
No propulsion for LS 6 = dedicated attack runs to strike targets = longer time in enemy airspace = increased vulnerability
Limited self defence capability for strike fighters (WVR missiles only) = escorts needed

That alone should make clear that there is a performance difference between Rafale and a J10, simply by design, avionics or weapon capabilities and before you ask, yes most of these capabilities were even proven with the current versions of Rafale during Afghanistan, Libya wars or exercises like Redflag or ATLC in the UAE.

So Rafale indeed is a very good and especially very balanced fighter, but I don't agree with Abingdonboy general statement that the Eurocanards are not comparable and simply superior. The EF for example has very limited A2G capabilities so far, which makes it inferior to J10 in this field. You simply can't generalise it and has to compare the different fighters and their individual capabilities and roles with eachother, but since neither J10B, nor EF T3B are developed yet, it's mainly speculation anyway.




Any source for this? Afaik there are still rumors about a PESA radar and not an AESA, so where did you get ranges from?

I think i am literate enough to understand a brochure by Dassault.

Your examples of Afghanistan and Libya fail to prove your point......as...... please tell me how many J-10 Class fighters did Rafale end up shooting? (You obviously won't like the answer)


The truth is, Rafale is non-air to air combat proven. Afghanistan doesn't count, as even a Mushak can fly in and drop bombs on the rag tags.

J-10 is also unproven.


I admire Rafale and it's technology, i follow it very closely by reading up relevent material, including but not limited to Jane's (Subscribed by my School's library), but i would avoid comments like J-10 is inferior because it may not have capabale IRST/FLIRs.....well, the truth is, we don't know the exact specs......because for one....Dassault had been hard at marketing their plane revealing more about it's capabilities, while Chengdu has been relatively quiet.........going from J-10A, to J-10B and more development, obviously rectifying any short comings.....not to mention the experience gained in parallel by running a 5th gen J-20 program.

Don't get me wrong, Rafale is extremely good for any role, but undermining J-10 based on paper specs would be wrong.


...and ya......IRST/FLIRs definitely are useful, but their shortcomings with respect to background clutter need to be addressed, and with advances in semiconductors, we might very well see this getting solved.

 

[Icewolf]

Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it

 

[Manticore]

The J10B may be a good a/c but it in no way is comparable to EFT or Rafale. It just isn't possible at this stage for the Chinese industries to have the same sort of design and production capabitles as established companies especially one like Dassualt that is making the most advanced tech in thei world. The J10 may be able to compete in some flight aspects like sustained turn and the like but in avionics (where modern combat is one and lost these days) there is just no comparison between the J-10 and the Euro-canards apart from some cosmetic similarities which have, no doubt, been ripped off.

I am a layman ... i accept my deficiency ... this attitude allows me to learn more concepts ... even if i am wrong i will gladly accept it and ponder why some designers favoured one design over the other .
So sir , please educate me as to how you came to these definate conclusions , surely you would have a very solid background in this field.







Why On the Typhoon and X-31, the tips of the canard are canted downwards?


Why On the Lavi, J-10, Kfir, Gripen and Rafale, the canard is positioned just ahead of, and above the wing?

How do close-coupled canards ,Lavi ,improve aircraft lift-to-drag ?

Whats the advantage of long-coupled canards?

Whats the postion of j-10s canards?

Out of the delta canards , which 2 might have the least drag canard delta wing configuration ?

Whats do you know regarding the j-10's avionics, radars and countermeasures?

What is the final version that would be inducted by paf? What would its specs be?

How many trenches did the eurofighter go through ? What are still its deficiencies?

How many batches of rafale did it take to achieve a balanced capabaliy?

IAI Lavi, General Dynamics F-16A Fighting Falcon, Saab JAS-39 Gripen, CAC J-10

 

[Akasa]

China is developing a 5th gen fighter because it has the money and needs it to defend itself against the US and their allies. Europeans has stealth developments for years, but the cold war is over and even the Eurocanards have lost their initial opponents (one reason why the EF won't be upgraded to full potential anymore).
Same goes for the AESA points, Europe has AESA radars even for fighters available, while China is still trying to develop comparable puls doppler radars for their fighters...
You are confusing Chinas good pace of developments, with the edge Europe has in terms of experience and knowledge. With the same ammount of money and the need to develop such fighters, they would be on par with the US, while China is still trying to catch up to Russia in terms of design, engines or even radars. China is the future, but these countries are the present!

You haven't stayed updated of Chinese avionics developments, have you? When China was flying its KJ-2000 and putting the TYpe 348 on its 052C, Europe was still looking for somebody to buy their AESA radars. Nobody did. Right now, with AESA radars being fitted on five different fighters in China, four different electronics planes, Europe is seriously lagging behind. Experience counts, but again, China has been building guns for hundreds of years and yet they are not at the top of the world when it comes to this.

 

[Thorough Pro]

And I see a Psycho full of foul air.

I see... A physiological effect!!

 

[Pakistanisage]

JF-17 is clearly superior to this J-10. Pakistan is too smart to fall for this trap set by the Chinese. When JF-17 is superior to F-16 as per some Pakistani pilots claims, and if J-10 is equal to F-16 as per Chinese claims, it logically means JF-17 is superior to J-10.

You are nothing but a TROLL.

 

[alimobin memon]

You are nothing but a TROLL.

Jf17 is an excellent fighter for PAF, If PAF does not buy J10 it means , Paf has what it wants , if J10B is integrated than it is superior to jf17 well ofcourse J10 is compared to typhoons so it should be.

 

[Beast]

Rafale?? The Mica missile they used is total crap compare to real BVRAAM like AIM-120 and PL-12.

But I am wondering when will Meteor be deployed?

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it

oh really! can u prove that?

 

[alimobin memon]

Pakistan gave 1 F-16 to China to make J-10... Of course we will get it

OK j10 is copy of f16 whole and lavi too oh and some tech from Russia , i just don't understand china made j20 by looking at Lavi and f16 that can wipe out any fighter

 

[IndianArmy]

And I see a Psycho full of foul air.

Ah so finally you see it too.... Go read what was the debate about rather being paranoid...

 

[lightoftruth]

And you're explaining this to who.......like they say argue with someone who has the same information level as you....else it would be a waste of time.

this is wat u come up with huh,
exactly the level of information u have is confined to media reports or a letter of intent,
even German 214 was a better phuss than this.