Pakistan will get New Air Defence system within this Year - CAS on ARY News .

[DJ_Viper]

We need 4-5 batteries for country wide coverage( if what I have been told is correct). We do not have sufficient economy of scale to do so. It might be more efficient and possible to try and get a Medium range missile and assemble it locally and subsequently produce advanced versions of it for different iterations.
A

Thank you. County wide coverage is critical and so is the fact that Pakistan should develop her own SAM and BVR missiles. I like that idea on getting a medium range / cheaper system and batch produce it in iterations with longer range. The draw back is, it would keep you years behind your arch-rival....

 

[araz]

Thank you. County wide coverage is critical and so is the fact that Pakistan should develop her own SAM and BVR missiles. I like that idea on getting a medium range / cheaper system and batch produce it in iterations with longer range. The draw back is, it would keep you years behind your arch-rival....

I think there is some misunderstanding. LRSAMS due to lack of numbers required will always be off the shelf buys. MRSAMS we can produce internally/locally. I understand the dilemma of developing oneself vs OTS buying but for Pakistan it is also a matter of managing syatems economically hence my suggestion.
Regards
A

 

[wulff]

Pakistan cant afford caassta so forget Russian defense system

And what does CAATSA affect specifically in the Pak-US context? Will it lead to stoppage of deliveries of additional F-16s that pakistan isn't buying? or the AH-1Zs that the US isn't delivering? or the engines for the T-129s that the US isn't signing off on? or the OHP Frigate re-armament that the US blocked? The thing is there is no major defence deal going on bw the two countries, nor is there any likelihood that Pakistan will make any big purchase from the US in the near future.

There is just one sticking point, the spares for F-16s. However, CAATSA sanctions on Turkey do not prevent the Turks from procuring spare parts for their F-16s. So CAATSA won't necessarily have any effect on PAF's F16s. There is also the new leverage Pak has over the US, in light of the ongoing withdrawal from Afghanistan.

All this means that CAATSA is not such a big issue for Pakistan if it decides to go for S-350s.

 

[iLION12345_1]

And what does CAATSA affect specifically in the Pak-US context? Will it lead to stoppage of deliveries of additional F-16s that pakistan isn't buying? or the AH-1Zs that the US isn't delivering? or the engines for the T-129s that the US isn't signing off on? or the OHP Frigate re-armament that the US blocked? The thing is there is no major defence deal going on bw the two countries, nor is there any likelihood that Pakistan will make any big purchase from the US in the near future.

There is just one sticking point, the spares for F-16s. However, CAATSA sanctions on Turkey do not prevent the Turks from procuring spare parts for their F-16s. So CAATSA won't necessarily have any effect on PAF's F16s. There is also the new leverage Pak has over the US, in light of the ongoing withdrawal from Afghanistan.

All this means that CAATSA is not such a big issue for Pakistan if it decides to go for S-350s.

The engines being used in all the frigates Pakistan is buying from Turkey are American. Any sales of parts or upgrades of PAF F-16s by Turkey need to be cleared by the US. just because Pakistan isn’t buying new things doesn’t mean it doesn’t have thousands of pieces US origin equipment in service for which it needs parts and OEM support. CAATSA 100% matters.

 

[wulff]

The engines being used in all the frigates Pakistan is buying from Turkey are American. Any sales of parts or upgrades of PAF F-16s by Turkey need to be cleared by the US. just because Pakistan isn’t buying new things doesn’t mean it doesn’t have thousands of pieces US origin equipment in service for which it needs parts and OEM support. CAATSA 100% matters.

Yes, spare parts. That is exactly what I was saying. You pointed out the example of the US supplied engines for the Turkish ships. US is still supplying those to Turkey even though CAATSA has been imposed on Turkey. Odd world, isn't it?

 

[iLION12345_1]

Yes, spare parts. That is exactly what I was saying. You pointed out the example of the US supplied engines for the Turkish ships. US is still supplying those to Turkey even though CAATSA has been imposed on Turkey. Odd world, isn't it?

The CAATSA is imposed on Turkey and not Pakistan. Hence the engines are being supplied. Iirc Turkish ships of the class use German power plants.

 

[wulff]

The CAATSA is imposed on Turkey and not Pakistan. Hence the engines are being supplied. Iirc Turkish ships of the class use German power plants.

It doesn't actually work that way. The engines will be purchased by the Turkish manufacturer from the US OEM. Then the Turkish company re-exports it to Pakistan. The re-export needs a separate license from the US government. If CAATSA were to kick in, it would be at the first stage and the Turkish company will never get the engines in the first place.

This is not to say that there isn't a possibility of the americans playing foul. However, these things are not set in stone, everything depends on how you play the cards in your hand, including the afghan one.

 

[PakFactor]

The engines being used in all the frigates Pakistan is buying from Turkey are American. Any sales of parts or upgrades of PAF F-16s by Turkey need to be cleared by the US. just because Pakistan isn’t buying new things doesn’t mean it doesn’t have thousands of pieces US origin equipment in service for which it needs parts and OEM support. CAATSA 100% matters.

Wouldn't this be detrimental to our national security if the US places an embargo?
What would be the other solution to avoid any sort of sanction prone engine, parts, etc.

 

[wulff]

Pakistan have been offered ASTER-15/30 several times in past and our military chiefs were given visits of manufacturing plants and performance was shown too, so ASTER-15/30 is very possible.

There are better options available, depending on what PA/PAF priorities are:

Long Range SAMs:

	S-350	Aster-30	FD-2000 (Export HQ-9)
Missile Range	120 km	100-120 km	125 km
Loadout	12 missiles/TEL	8 missiles/TEL	4 missiles/TEL
Guidance	Active Radar Seeker	Active Radar Seeker	SARH Seeker
Control	TVC Motor + Lateral Thrusters	TVC Motor + Lateral Thrusters	TVC Motor
Peak Maneuvrability	60 G	60 G	Unknown (but likely to be ~20g)

S-350 Strengths:
- It has 12 missiles on each launcher
- Sanction proof
- potential integration with a whole range of advanced, low-frequency russian radar systems like the RLM-LE aka Nebo-UM (VHF/UHF band, 600 km range), the RLM-DE aka GAMMA-DE (L-band, 600 km range) and RLM-S aka GAMMA-S radars

FD-2000 Strengths:
- it can be potentially upgraded with longer range missiles
- potential integration with a variety of chinese radars

Medium Range Options:
There are a lot of medium range options available:
1) Camm-ER/Land Ceptor (40+ km range)
2) Umkhonto-ER-IR (30km) and Umkhonto-R (60km)
3) HQ-16C (70 km)
4) Hisar- O+

But the best option would be to wait for the Turkish SIPER which is expected to debut in 2023 with a multi-missile configuration, and a maximum range of 150+ km.

 

[Tornado23]

There are better options available, depending on what PA/PAF priorities are:

Long Range SAMs:

	S-350	Aster-30	FD-2000 (Export HQ-9)
Missile Range	120 km	100-120 km	125 km
Loadout	12 missiles/TEL	8 missiles/TEL	4 missiles/TEL
Guidance	Active Radar Seeker	Active Radar Seeker	SARH Seeker
Control	TVC Motor + Lateral Thrusters	TVC Motor + Lateral Thrusters	TVC Motor
Peak Maneuvrability	60 G	60 G	Unknown (but likely to be ~20g)

S-350 Strengths:
- It has 12 missiles on each launcher
- Sanction proof
- potential integration with a whole range of advanced, low-frequency russian radar systems like the RLM-LE aka Nebo-UM (VHF/UHF band, 600 km range), the RLM-DE aka GAMMA-DE (L-band, 600 km range) and RLM-S aka GAMMA-S radars

FD-2000 Strengths:
- it can be potentially upgraded with longer range missiles
- potential integration with a variety of chinese radars

Medium Range Options:
There are a lot of medium range options available:
1) Camm-ER/Land Ceptor (40+ km range)
2) Umkhonto-ER-IR (30km) and Umkhonto-R (60km)
3) HQ-16C (70 km)
4) Hisar- O+

But the best option would be to wait for the Turkish SIPER which is expected to debut in 2023 with a multi-missile configuration, and a maximum range of 150+ km.

Hq9/FD2000 has a 200km range

Imo the s350 would be the best option

 

[arjunk]

Why don't we get longer range SAMs? Indian aircraft will take off from deep inside India.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Wouldn't this be detrimental to our national security if the US places an embargo?
What would be the other solution to avoid any sort of sanction prone engine, parts, etc.

It shouldn’t be an issue hopefully, plus the engines themselves are better than the other options from what I can tell.

Why don't we get longer range SAMs? Indian aircraft will take off from deep inside India.

Longer range SAMS are planned for both the Air Force and the army, as well as short range SAMS for the army. Navy is already getting new SAMS on all the frigates. It’s just that these acquisitions for both the army and the Air Force seem to have taken a lower priority over whatever else they’re getting.

 

[mudas777]

There is also the new leverage Pak has over the US, in light of the ongoing withdrawal from Afghanistan.

All this means that CAATSA is not such a big issue for Pakistan if it decides to go for S-350s.

Leverage of Pakistan over US is 1 month wonder so lets not be wasting time over what's not going to be. Since US have taken steps towards the Pacific tilt to confront China and embrace India as her new partner things are not going to be the same. Military sales, cooperation is not on the table unless something very serious happens and it jogs the US memory and they find us somehow useful. Basically at this moment of time more or less weapon sales to Pakistan depends on the Indian nod so why we are wasting acres of space on the forums knowing well its not on the cards for a long time.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All this means that CAATSA is not such a big issue for Pakistan if it decides to go for S-350s.

Chest thumping braggadocio of ‘we don’t care about sanctions’ is self-destructive (I’m not saying that is what you are implying).

Yes, there are times and critical projects (such as the nuclear weapons program) where the risk of sanctions is understood and taken on, but for any policy/decision maker to possess an attitude of ‘we don’t care about sanctions’ is foolish and a disservice to the country.

If long term goals can be accomplished reasonably well without sanctions or minimal sanctions, then that is always a path that should be carefully considered. Geo-politics isn’t about ones emotions, it is about how best to pursue national interests.

 

[Basel]

There are better options available, depending on what PA/PAF priorities are:

Long Range SAMs:

	S-350	Aster-30	FD-2000 (Export HQ-9)
Missile Range	120 km	100-120 km	125 km
Loadout	12 missiles/TEL	8 missiles/TEL	4 missiles/TEL
Guidance	Active Radar Seeker	Active Radar Seeker	SARH Seeker
Control	TVC Motor + Lateral Thrusters	TVC Motor + Lateral Thrusters	TVC Motor
Peak Maneuvrability	60 G	60 G	Unknown (but likely to be ~20g)

S-350 Strengths:
- It has 12 missiles on each launcher
- Sanction proof
- potential integration with a whole range of advanced, low-frequency russian radar systems like the RLM-LE aka Nebo-UM (VHF/UHF band, 600 km range), the RLM-DE aka GAMMA-DE (L-band, 600 km range) and RLM-S aka GAMMA-S radars

FD-2000 Strengths:
- it can be potentially upgraded with longer range missiles
- potential integration with a variety of chinese radars

Medium Range Options:
There are a lot of medium range options available:
1) Camm-ER/Land Ceptor (40+ km range)
2) Umkhonto-ER-IR (30km) and Umkhonto-R (60km)
3) HQ-16C (70 km)
4) Hisar- O+

But the best option would be to wait for the Turkish SIPER which is expected to debut in 2023 with a multi-missile configuration, and a maximum range of 150+ km.

Russian SAMs may not come due to US sanctions issue L, Chinese SAM will come but Aster 30NT or block-2 is also beast in its self range is not everything in modern warfare.