Pakistan, US at odds over definition

[Tshering22]

because ofcourse the US has never ever had any jihadi pets of their own?

right?

The US is certainly equally guilty of creating these people. But when US supplied logistics for their training, they were not rampant and creating havoc in India and had zero effect on us. However as soon as US raised its hands off from the Afghanistan case post Soviet withdrawal, you found this form of warfare effective against us and let these animals loose in our territory. That affected us.

So US could lose its image for being guilty of creating these people in our eyes because their creation didn't affect us. Your retention of them affected us big time. How do you expect us not to be angry and blame you?

Instead of disbanding the mujahideen and re-settling them in normal lives, you used them as a tool against us such that your military won't have to do the work. So naturally Indians blame you.

It is not because of US's wannabe pets that we Indians blame you but because your retention of these guerillas for your personal use that affected us severely, that we blame you. Got it?

 

[softtec]

Nonsense no one is going out from Pakistan to kill anybody

Ignorance at its peak.Pakistan becomes a makka of terrorism.Do I have to show you how many times, how many places, how many people all over the world linked terrorist activities to pakistan either by pakistan born nationals or terrorists trained inside pakistan?

Pakistan suffered more loss both economically and physically.

What do you think you will grow up a snake and it will not bite you?Wait few more years all your beloved terrorists(such as LET) targeting towards India may soon start biting you.You made a big part of your society, the youth pron to so called jehadi mentality.Better come out soon.

As for punishing No body invited the US to attack on a a country and put the whole region into chaos.

They invited attacking deadly attacks on them.US being the strongest country had the courage and will to punish them.If you r with their enemies, they can think of you also same.

enemies were once friends of the US too. Problem arose when US left the region after the soviet withdrawal and left Pakistan to deal with the mess

Friends had become enemies.
So what do you think US would stay and you would pump the money forever.
As you told, so US came back to clear the mess.And now would like to stay longer.Oh yeah now they don't wanna put Pakistan in Afgan mess.So you shouldn't complain any more.

what we have spent so far and the loss that we have suffered economically not to forget the loss of human lives.
And also for your information much of the money that US pays us is our own, the transit fees.

Theses were your creation.You had to create them to kick out Russians. US could bear, but Pakistan couldn't bear India's strongest ally in all sides of its border. You needed Americans anyhow and they helped you in all ways.So give a big thank to them indeed.
So now who else gonna suffer? Oh yes look US also suffering.

huh..transit fees is just one type of reimbursement. US reimburse you almost each and everything you spend of fighting your beloved enemy TTP.

 

[Asian.Century]

CENTCOM, Dear For You, Since Obama has lost mid-term elections and his/neo-cons harsh polices towards Asia are exposing, this is a dispatch for you and your propaganda.

Dated: Nov. 3, 2010

Everyone is enjoying the so called successful NATO & American raids (South Afghanistan in Particular), forgetting the fact that Taliban foiled the whole Enduring Freedom subsequently dozens of failed time-
pass Operations, resulted in a Healthy Codename Dictionary, but No Progress.

Although ISAF officers keep saying airstrikes put insurgents under great pressure,the fact is they failed to capture or kill a single 3rd grade Commander. In the air strikes, only innocents died in great numbers. Work as a blackmailing to push Taliban fighters back on
mountains, was certainly not a Win Over, but challenge Afghans to come back even more surprisingly.

Taliban commanders claim they are foiling intensified night-time attacks by elite troops that "NATO officials hoped would bring Us to the negotiating table in Afghanistan. They are fooling their own self, Afghan History is full of Surprises, we never lack Miracles by the grace of Allah".

Alien Officials say a fivefold increase in "kill or capture" raids and escalating airstrikes are putting the Taliban under unprecedented pressure and prompting some rebel groups to seek a ceasefire.
But Afghan commanders from Helmand and Kandahar, interviewed in Kabul, say the effectiveness of NATO special operations forces has diminished.

"In the past year they have had a lot of successes with these operations, but now we have got used to it and changed our tactics," said the commander of a group of 50 men in Dand, Kandahar province.

"At night we have two people in every village who do not go to sleep if they hear the helicopters, we contact each other before they arrive."

Another commander, now based in Marjah, a rural area of Helmand which the US marines are struggling to subdue, had a similar story.

"In spring they came to try to arrest me, but when the helicopters landed we were called by other bases and we quickly ran away from the house," he said. "They took two men but two days later they were released."

"We know they have tippers: you go to a place and you get three guys but the real guy has snuck out the back door," the ISAF officer said.

The commander from Marjah said his men were constantly aware of the intelligence gathering aimed at catching Mujahids. "Whenever we see a spy plane, we know that something is going to happen in this location, and we prepare for it," he said. "When we found a spy in the
village, we hanged him from a tree."

Aliens said "They are spending more of their time planning how to survive than planning attacks on the coalition and civilians," the official said. "If we can keep the Taliban moving, having to sleep in different
places every night, always losing sleep, talking less on communication devices – that all works in our favour."

(Ignorant)

But Taliban Commander said "During the fight, my side has casualties and their side has casualties but the local people are supporting us and not them," he said.

"When someone dies, the villagers send one of their sons to fight."
Ehsan Zahine, the head of the Tribal Liaison Office, a research centre, said ISAF is mistaken, risking, foiled, completely unaware of a hidden Power in Afghanistan "It's creating a bunch of young guys who have been trained in the madrassas and have one word in their heads: Jihad."

Many experts believe on this hidden power in Afghanistan & Pakistan with the best tactics, training, logistics & an Ideological Direction. Supreme & Sole Authority.


Regards,

Dear ,
Are not your claims but one of many conspiracy theories about the strategic alliance between two nations, Pakistan and the United States? . Since 9/11 the true picture has become clearer. Extremist attempts to manipulate the people of Pakistan into believing the US had waged a war against Islam no longer places a cover over peoples minds.

LCDR Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command
www.Centcom.mil

 

[IceCold]

Ignorance at its peak.Pakistan becomes a makka of terrorism.Do I have to show you how many times, how many places, how many people all over the world linked terrorist activities to pakistan either by pakistan born nationals or terrorists trained inside pakistan?

Yes please do show me how exactly is it Pakistans fault if a guy in the US decides to go to the heaven the wrong way? Please do show me how exactly is Pakistan responsible for that which inturn makes us a Makkah of terrorism as you like to put it?

What do you think you will grow up a snake and it will not bite you?Wait few more years all your beloved terrorists(such as LET) targeting towards India may soon start biting you.You made a big part of your society, the youth pron to so called jehadi mentality.Better come out soon.

Apart from the Indian nonsense about LET we Pakistanis really don't need a lesson from some one across the border. Like i mentioned before for you guys everything bad has to be Pakistans fault and i dont blame you for that, its how you guys are raised up. So before you question our society, have a look at your own.

They invited attacking deadly attacks on them.US being the strongest country had the courage and will to punish them.If you r with their enemies, they can think of you also same.

And yet they cant think of anyway then to be on the same page as we are specially where Afghanistan is concerned. We have been saying all along that this war cannot be won alone by fighting, you will have to bring the taliban into the mainstream, question now comes about Haqqani and his network and US will have to accommodate that as well. There is no alternative to that.

Friends had become enemies.
So what do you think US would stay and you would pump the money forever.
As you told, so US came back to clear the mess.And now would like to stay longer.Oh yeah now they don't wanna put Pakistan in Afgan mess.So you shouldn't complain any more.

We are already in the mess first after the soviet defeat and US with drawl leaving us to deal with the mess alone and whatever resources we had,we did a pretty good job. Not only did we stabilize Afghanistan but at the same took the burden of hundred of thousands of Afghan migrants. So thanks but no thanks.

Theses were your creation.You had to create them to kick out Russians. US could bear, but Pakistan couldn't bear India's strongest ally in all sides of its border. You needed Americans anyhow and they helped you in all ways.So give a big thank to them indeed.
So now who else gonna suffer? Oh yes look US also suffering.

Nonsense. Go and educate yourself over how taliban were created and who funded their creation and was the US ok with Russia in Afghanistan? US did not get involved into the conflict out of the goodwill for Pakistan alone.

huh..transit fees is just one type of reimbursement. US reimburse you almost each and everything you spend of fighting your beloved enemy TTP.

I just gave you one example of how US owes money to us. Rest even the F-16s were aid thingi as per you Indians until the americans themselves made it clear that we payed for them. So no surprise if you continue to believe otherwise.

 

[softtec]

Yes please do show me how exactly is it Pakistans fault if a guy in the US decides to go to the heaven the wrong way? Please do show me how exactly is Pakistan responsible for that which inturn makes us a Makkah of terrorism as you like to put it?

Pakistan is responsible to let the jehadi environment got growing, because of its own overt or covert support of terrorism against Soviet or India.You got a big part of your society involved to that.Your agencies polluted your own society. Why the denial?Can't you see that??
World is big..But why do you think almost from all over the world muslims come for jehadi training in pakistan?How much fascination they have for Pakistan? It's the spirit, the environment, the sources they get so easily in your country.

It's very easy to give excuse that they r independent or uncontrolled actors.But it's your responsibility to destroy the infrastructure,the jehadi environment, which acts like a cancer for the whole world and for your own country also.

When you think haqqanis as ur strategic tool and when they go and kill NATO soldiers, NATO should have the full right to punish you also.

Apart from the Indian nonsense about LET...

So wats ur idea.They r not terrorist or what..Or Pakistan didn't nurtured let, jem, hijbul etc..What I said in course of nurturing them against India for whatever reason(such as Kashmir), you have polluted your own youths, your society with jehadi fanatics.

Oh wait..Its not me or the indians or the west say, lot of Pakistani scholars also mentioned multiple times time to time.

We are already in the mess first after the soviet defeat and US with drawl leaving us to deal with the mess alone and whatever resources we had,we did a pretty good job. Not only did we stabilize Afghanistan but at the same took the burden of hundred of thousands of Afghan migrants. So thanks but no thanks.

Who wants to give you the space in afganistan politics?
Its you, who wishing NATO to leave as fast as possible. Its you insisting and pleading to NATO for trying to be a part in the Afgan mess. As I told US came back to clear the mess, once it had created.And now would like to stay longer.And they really don't wanna put Pakistan in Afgan mess anymore.So now you don't complain.

Nonsense. Go and educate yourself over how taliban were created and who funded their creation and was the US ok with Russia in Afghanistan? US did not get involved into the conflict out of the goodwill for Pakistan alone.

Read my post again.Did I say anything what u wrote?I said US could bear soviet in Afganistan.But Pakistan couldn't bear it anyway.They couldn't think of second India in other side of the border also.US obviously helped you with money and ammunition for their own benefit.But think what if they wouldn't come to help then?

I just gave you one example of how US owes money to us. Rest even the F-16s were aid thingi as per you Indians until the americans themselves made it clear that we payed for them. So no surprise if you continue to believe otherwise.

Ist get ur facts right. US REIMBURSE both their owes and pak war expenditures. Before talking just ask ur senior members, apart from the ammunition and fuel what else pak army reimburse while fighting with Taliban.

 

[PakSher]

We know who the terrorist is, that in India:

(01) Muqti Bani Terrorist Training Camps for 23 years
(02) Creating, funding and supporting the LTTE
(03) Helping the moasits in Nepal
(04) Covertly helping Dalia Lama against China
(05) Genocide of the Sikhs in Punjab
(06) Killing of Innocent people in Kashmir
(07) Massacre of muslims in Gujrat
(08) Hindu caste system against poor Indians

are all tales of terror. Indian is the biggest covert terrorist in the world.

 

[Kinetic]

We know who the terrorist is, that in India:

(01) Muqti Bani Terrorist Training Camps for 23 years
(02) Creating, funding and supporting the LTTE
(03) Helping the moasits in Nepal
(04) Covertly helping Dalia Lama against China
(05) Genocide of the Sikhs in Punjab
(06) Killing of Innocent people in Kashmir
(07) Massacre of muslims in Gujrat
(08) Hindu caste system against poor Indians

are all tales of terror. Indian is the biggest covert terrorist in the world.

I am adding some....

(09) Massacre of Tamils in Sri Lanka
(10) Supporting both Northern Alliance and taliban terrorists in Afghanistan
(11) Massacre of millions of Bangladeshis
(12) Trial of innocent like Kasab
(13) Massacre of dalits, ahmedis

etc etc

Why don't accuse India for Vietnam war or dropping atom bomb on Toronto????

Genocide, Massacre??? Do you know who killed how many???

 

[PakSher]

These are the bitter facts of Indian Democracy. The thread is about US Pakistan relations and we do not need Indians to tell is what needs to be done. US and Pakistan relations are in its 7th decade. We have been together through the Cold War, not like India to run after the US after the collpase of the Warsaw Pact and USSR and then run back to Russia and then back to the US.

Make up your mind and mind your own Indian business.

 

[Kinetic]

These are the bitter facts of Indian Democracy. The thread is about US Pakistan relations and we do not need Indians to tell is what needs to be done. US and Pakistan relations are in its 7th decade. We have been together through the Cold War, not like India to run after the US after the collpase of the Warsaw Pact and USSR and then run back to Russia and then back to the US.

Make up your mind and mind your own Indian business.

You should have think about this before posting that listing about India which has nothing to do with the thread.

 

[NWO]

Well be up front and honest say Pakistan has no intention of going after Jalaluddin Haqqani that Pakistan doesnt care if he is killing Americans because you think you might be able to use him in the future?

If Pakistan attacks them, far more Pakistani than Americans will die. Are you saying that Pakistani lives are worth less than American lives?

Stump up and be honest that in the perspective of the future security of Pakistan dead Americans are a price your happy to pay then every one knows the rules.

Oh yes, because dead Pakistani, which number over 30,000, aren't as important as American lives, which number under 10,000. You are right, Americans are the only ones paying for this war.

hi penumbra,
If you think you can get rid of Americans in afganistan by 2011(!!) or 2015, u will be living in fools paradise. Americans r here to stay.What they want to reduce the bloodsheds and control as many places, make peace with different groups and buy time, weaken taliban groups, isolate them from each other.By 2015, even if they leave, they will keep 30-40k spacial forces and full air power to deny any taliban aggression anywhere. After making afgan army stronger, slowly they will go for each and every taliban groups separately and take them under central leadership.

'Cuz, you know, that strategy is working so well with Iraq, which had over 4,500 civilian deaths last year.

Yes I believe Pakistan should look into its self interest also.
1. But when ppl from your country cross over and make mayhem all over, others(read west) should have also the right to punish you.They are your tool, so either you control them or face the punishment.

Well, with that logic, Afghanistan is a US territory. And since the Taliban runs all over Afghanistan, US should be punished.

I don't know how you think having 140,000 soldiers in the Tribal Regions trying to control the areas is somehow showing that Pakistan is letting these militants run all over. Yes, they do run around free in these areas, but the GOP is attempting to control that, so they aren't mere tools.

2. Why would west would PAY you.You are getting rid of your enemies,created and nurtured by yourself, from your land.If they don't pay you, would you like to see your land, ur society coming inside taliban regime? They are paying you in the hope that your military will get rid of them,who are NATO's enemy. But you are playing game and they know it also. Instead of that US is paying for each and every bullet your military spend for killing ttp and saving your country everyday.

First of all, the aid does not cover all the cost. Not even half of it. Second of all, the reason the West gives aid is because they also have a vested interest in it. Third of all, Pakistan didn't create the militants. The CIA had the ISI create them to combat the Soviets. So, don't say that they are a problem created by Pakistan. It's the Soviets and Americans, (both Western), fault just as much as Pakistan, if not more.

3. What if they get frustrated and stop helping you and see you as their enemy.West can survive,but will you be anywhere to stand? If you deeply think what will be the consequences and how much Pakistan's already fragile economy and military and its geo political existence heavily depends on that, you will come to know why your top brass can't go against them anyway.

This is the problem Pakistan if facing. Yes, if the West leaves than Pakistan will be in big trouble. The Afghan Taliban won't forgive a decade of Pakistan helping US. But remember, it's the West that helped creat this problem back in 1979, and it's Pakistan that'll have to pay the price. The only other country that has suffered more is Afghanistan itself.

Another factor that differentiates Mukhti Bahini from the Taliban that you support in the name of national interest is that MB didn't run around mixing with worldwide terrorist organizations, plotting bomb attacks in entire Europe, hide terrorists from Russia's Chechn province, provide armed cover for hijackers of airliners from other countries, subject local populance under brute and intolerant philosophies etc.

I believe you are mistaking the Taliban with the Al Qaeda Network. Get your facts straight.

Bahini didn't do all of this; Taliban has done all of this. And If you're still continuing to call them your national interest say officially, it means you take the enmity of not just India but entire West as well as CAR and Russia.

HAHAHA, you act like the West and India already love Pakistan. What else can they do? Invade Pakistan? Yes, lets see what happens when a nuclear country is invaded. Sanction us? Good luck with that, considering the economy is already destroyed.

Pakistan is responsible to let the jehadi environment got growing, because of its own overt or covert support of terrorism against Soviet or India.You got a big part of your society involved to that.Your agencies polluted your own society. Why the denial?Can't you see that??
World is big..But why do you think almost from all over the world muslims come for jehadi training in pakistan?How much fascination they have for Pakistan? It's the spirit, the environment, the sources they get so easily in your country.

Because, you know, it's not like the CIA had any vested interest in funding, training and equipping the militans + Bin Laden to fight the Soviets. And your right, Pakistan should have eliminated them long ago. It's a big embarrassment after seeing how US can do it so quickly and efficiently.

It's very easy to give excuse that they r independent or uncontrolled actors.But it's your responsibility to destroy the infrastructure,the jehadi environment, which acts like a cancer for the whole world and for your own country also.

Your right, America really should get rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. And just carpet bombing any and all possible infrastructure is the most efficient and humane way to do it.

When you think haqqanis as ur strategic tool and when they go and kill NATO soldiers, NATO should have the full right to punish you also.

So, does the Russian Federation have the right to punish US due CIA-backed militants in the 80's? Or Pakistan, for that matter? Pakistan wouldn't have done so much for the militants had the CIA not wanted it.

So wats ur idea.They r not terrorist or what..Or Pakistan didn't nurtured let, jem, hijbul etc..What I said in course of nurturing them against India for whatever reason(such as Kashmir), you have polluted your own youths, your society with jehadi fanatics.

Your right, the GOP needs to stop telling the youth to kill 100+ people each week in suicide bombings. And stop giving them so much free prime time TV, plus free web site hosting. Those 140,000 servants that Pakistan sent there need to called back as well.

The only militants this might apply to is the Kashmiri ones, but they have been banned in Pakistan. And they aren't the ones attacking Pakistan each week.

Oh wait..Its not me or the indians or the west say, lot of Pakistani scholars also mentioned multiple times time to time.

So, if I find a Indian who says all desi people need to be lynched, does that make it true?

Who wants to give you the space in afganistan politics?
Its you, who wishing NATO to leave as fast as possible. Its you insisting and pleading to NATO for trying to be a part in the Afgan mess. As I told US came back to clear the mess, once it had created.And now would like to stay longer.And they really don't wanna put Pakistan in Afgan mess anymore.So now you don't complain.

Clean up the mess? Because their guilty conscience was what drove them, right? Not like they lost 3,000 civilians in some random plane attack or nothing. And off course, they are letting all Pakistanis vacation while they fix up Afghanistan. How quaint. Your right, why are Pakistanis be complaining.

Read my post again.Did I say anything what u wrote?I said US could bear soviet in Afganistan.But Pakistan couldn't bear it anyway.They couldn't think of second India in other side of the border also.US obviously helped you with money and ammunition for their own benefit.But think what if they wouldn't come to help then?

Oh yeah, because US loved communism and just wanted to see it flourish. The Korean and Vietnam war are a proof of that. Off course, the only reason they would go into Afghanistan is to help their time tested ally, Pakistan.

Ist get ur facts right. US REIMBURSE both their owes and pak war expenditures. Before talking just ask ur senior members, apart from the ammunition and fuel what else pak army reimburse while fighting with Taliban.

They cover every, single, little penny? They don't leave anything out? Including the loss in investment and paying for the structural damage? Damn, Americans are pretty generous.

 

[IceCold]

Pakistan is responsible to let the jehadi environment got growing, because of its own overt or covert support of terrorism against Soviet or India.You got a big part of your society involved to that.Your agencies polluted your own society. Why the denial?Can't you see that??
World is big..But why do you think almost from all over the world muslims come for jehadi training in pakistan?How much fascination they have for Pakistan? It's the spirit, the environment, the sources they get so easily in your country.

No i dont see it, because what you call as terrorism was and is freedom struggle against Indian occupation forces in Kashmir.That is why i said not to bring India into the discussion And as far as soviets are concerned like i said before Pakistan isnt alone responsible for taliban, US too is. After the soviet with drawl US should have stayed to make sure Afghanistan could be stabilized but that didnt happen and Pakistan was left alone to deal with the mess. Like i said before Pakistan did what any country would have done make sure there is a friendly regime in Afghanistan because that directly affects us.
Your last line is irrelevant since what you very casually mentioned about how people like to travel to Pakistan for terrorism yet very conveniently forgot that these people are now foreign citizens and that makes them the responsibility of their respective foreign country and not Pakistan. If Pakistan refuses them visas, the state department in case of the US protests at every level.
So there is no denial, i am just asking you where is the Pakistan connection that makes us the makkah of terrorism?

When you think haqqanis as ur strategic tool and when they go and kill NATO soldiers, NATO should have the full right to punish you also.

Why are you being a hypocrite here? Why dont you complain when US and NATO itself are talking with the taliban? What kind of hypocrisy is that? You want Pakistan to initiate a military operation and yet you dont want to do the same? So yes if thats the case then Pakistan has every right to look for its own interests in the region. If that makes us the bad guy so be it. And whats with the fetish of punishing us. Do you really believe that? Seriously last time they violated, they had to apologize including the US.

And please now dont think of bringing in the drone attacks. Because that is where you must be heading next.

So wats ur idea.They r not terrorist or what..Or Pakistan didn't nurtured let, jem, hijbul etc..What I said in course of nurturing them against India for whatever reason(such as Kashmir), you have polluted your own youths, your society with jehadi fanatics.

My idea does not matter here and neither is LET our topic. Lets just stick to that.

Who wants to give you the space in afganistan politics?
Its you, who wishing NATO to leave as fast as possible. Its you insisting and pleading to NATO for trying to be a part in the Afgan mess. As I told US came back to clear the mess, once it had created.And now would like to stay longer.And they really don't wanna put Pakistan in Afgan mess anymore.So now you don't complain.

Even the US has openly acknowledge Pakistans role in Afghainstan. Do you seriously believe Pakistan can be put aside and Pakistan has no role, you are gravely mistaken because last time we checked it was India that has no space in Afghanistan politics. AND US hardly came here to clear the mess, they just launched a wrong war at the wrong time and are still nowhere even after so many years and are now talking with the same guys they came here to destroy. So what clearing of mess are you talking about?

Read my post again.Did I say anything what u wrote?I said US could bear soviet in Afganistan.But Pakistan couldn't bear it anyway.They couldn't think of second India in other side of the border also.US obviously helped you with money and ammunition for their own benefit.But think what if they wouldn't come to help then?

Wrong because US could not bear Russia in Afghanistan, it wasnt just Pakistan. Without the US interest, they would have care less even if the whole of Pakistan got lost.

Ist get ur facts right. US REIMBURSE both their owes and pak war expenditures. Before talking just ask ur senior members, apart from the ammunition and fuel what else pak army reimburse while fighting with Taliban.

Dont need to and specially w.r.t you. In case you haven't noticed i am senior member myself and here for a long time. I am not your average internet fan boy or an arms chair general.
The reason i mentioned this and brought in what US owes us because in your initial posts you made it sound like Pakistan is doomed without the US money. Since your lack of knowledge was evident about Pakistan and Pakistanis, i suggest you read a bit more specially about the 90s era.

 

[SEAL]

Well be up front and honest say Pakistan has no intention of going after Jalaluddin Haqqani that Pakistan doesnt care if he is killing Americans because you think you might be able to use him in the future?

Dont recyle the were too busy oh its the floods oh its India oh if you just gave us another few billion dollars.

Stump up and be honest that in the perspective of the future security of Pakistan dead Americans are a price your happy to pay then every one knows the rules.

It isnt a "definiton" problem Haqqani is a murdering thug everyone agrees on that the only question is who's thug is he?

If we destroy Haqqani group in one strike it means US won?
lol 70% Afghanistan is under taliban control.
10years gone only one option left for US "change it or lose it".

During cold war when Russian soldiers were dying from US sponsored Jihad they didn't blame US but they threatened to nuke Pakistan.In the end so called partner USA imposed sanctions on us.

We don't wanna repeat this mistake we have to protect our interests first we need strategic depth in A'stan and obviously Indians will not be allowed to use A'stan territory against Pakistan.

 

[muse]

Pakistani readers continue to think that the US seeks stability in the region, nothing could be further from the truth - the implications of exporting instability to Pakistan and insisting, cajoling, even thinking that Pakistan as a sign of gratitude for US aid, import instability, have not been examined in detail among US policy makers and Pakistani readers on this forum - after all, if US created and nurtured instability is good for Pakistan and Pakistan must accept this US export, perhaps Pakistan ought to re-export the same to the regional ally of the US?


New US approach to Afghanistan insurgency: Vindication for Pakistan?

Afghanistan and the US are showing signs of a new approach to insurgents in Afghanistan. The approach may ultimately allow Pakistan more influence in Afghanistan as the US prepares to leave next year.

A US soldier walks during a patrol, on Nov. 3, in Sangin, south of Kabul. Afghanistan and the US are showing signs of a new approach to insurgents in Afghanistan.

By Issam Ahmed, Correspondent / November 3, 2010

Islamabad, Pakistan
A private meeting recently between a Taliban figure with ties to the militant Haqqani network and Afghan President Hamid Karzai may indicate a new willingness to engage with groups previously thought of as "too extreme," ultimately allowing Pakistan more room to influence events in Afghanistan as the US prepares to leave next year.

Maulvi Abdul Kabir, an ex-Taliban governor close to the Haqqani network, which is widely believed to be the US-led coalition’s most fierce enemy, met with President Hamid Karzai just over two weeks ago, the Associated Press reported, citing an unidentified former Afghan official. The meeting was a precursor to ongoing talks with a 70-member council tasked with bringing a close to the Afghanistan insurgency.

According to Brigadier (ret.) Mehmood Shah, a former security chief of Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), Kabir, who was arrested by Pakistani authorities in February, was likely flown into Kabul with Pakistan’s approval and backing.


The United States has publicly insisted that the Haqqani network based in Afghanistan and Pakistan and led by Jalaluddin Haqqani and his son Sirajuddin, should be excluded from talks. In July, US Gen. David Petraeus, commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, suggested the group should be blacklisted, a move backed by Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the US Senate Arms Services Committee.

The purported meeting with Mr. Kabir, would appear to suggest Afghanistan's desire to take a different direction.

Rifaat Hussain, a militancy expert at the Quaid-i-Azam University, says there now appears to be “an effort to co-opt all those elements who are willing to play ball with Karzai, which include the core Haqqani group and even those who hold a position of influence.”

Such an outcome would be favored by Pakistan, he says, which has long resisted calls to tackle the Al Qaeda affiliated group in its North Waziristan base, partly out of fear of a backlash and partly so it may continue to exert influence by proxy in Afghanistan.

Pakistani vindication

The Pakistani government has called for groups such as the Haqqani network and the forces of warlorld Gulbuddin Hekmatyar to be included in peace talks, and as such may view the move by the US to talk to Kabir as a vindication of its own long-time policy.

“There is a certain duality in the American approach: on the one hand they are talking to Haqqani and on the other they are also asking Pakistan to take them on, which Islamabad finds baffling,” Mr. Hussain says.

“Pakistan favors the government of Afghanistan to talk to the Taliban, and it would like to facilitate that as much as it can. Maulvi Kabir is in custody, so the government of Pakistan would have allowed [the Afghan government] to talk to him,” Brigadier Shah says.

So far, the Pakistan Army has resisted calls to carry out a full blown attack in North Waziristan, an area where the Pakistan Army currently has 34,000 troops.

“What we have to do, we have to stabilize the whole area. I have a very large area in my command. So I must stabilize the other areas, and then maybe look at North Waziristan” Lt. Gen. Asif Yasin Malik, the main military commander in the area, told reporters last week.

What rooting out the Haqqanis will do for Pakistan

Operations against the Taliban are still ongoing in three of the seven Tribal areas, Bajaur, Mohmand, and South Waziristan. The Pakistani Taliban are waging a campaign of terror in Pakistan’s cities. “Committing to fight the Haqqanis at this stage could create a serious internal threat for Pakistan,” says Dr. Hussain, the analyst.

Ultimately, however, it may be the so-called Quetta Shura, which consists of the Taliban leaders who fled from Afghanistan after the US-led invasion in 2001, and not the Haqqani network or other Pakistan-backed warlords who will be crucial to achieving a settlement, according to Hussain.

The Monitor reported a number of the leadership council were arrested in February including the Taliban number two, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, though Pakistan is limiting US and Afghan access to them, according to Ahmed Rashid, author of “Descent into Chaos.”

“They have the legitimacy of leading the Jihad against the foreign occupation,” as opposed to the Haqqani network which is politically weak and unpopular within Afghanistan. “The Quetta Shura is more independent and wants to assert itself. It does not [want] to appear as a stooge for the Pakistanis,” he says.

 

[softtec]

Pakistan isnt alone responsible for taliban, US too is.

I also said that.You seem don't read lines carefully.

After the soviet with drawl US should have stayed to make sure Afghanistan could be stabilized but that didnt happen and Pakistan was left alone to deal with the mess...

Pakistan was only interested the continues arms and dollar flow.Pakistan was very happy to install and guiding its puppet Taliban regime @96.

Your last line is irrelevant since what you very casually mentioned about how people like to travel to Pakistan for terrorism yet very conveniently forgot that these people are now foreign citizens and that makes them the responsibility of their respective foreign country and not Pakistan. If Pakistan refuses them visas, the state department in case of the US protests at every level.

With whom I talking! Try to read behind the line meaning.
I already told why these foreign nationals love to come to Pakistan to train and get involved in terrorism. Read my post again.

So there is no denial, i am just asking you

where is the Pakistan connection that makes us the makkah of terrorism?

Like ur friend "NWO" mentioned, Pakistan should have destroyed all these infrastructures throughout different places in Pakistan.Instead you replicated same in ur eastern border, thinking if these jehadis could throw out soviets,India would be easy. Untill recently these infrastructures were mushrooming and expanding all over Pakistan and brain washing your youths for the jehad with India and west.
When you make the whole environment and machinery of creating jehadis, these ppl, these infrastructure used by all over the ppl for all over the world. That's why i called it Makkah of terrorism, its the spirit, its the easy source, the perfect environment, the perfect motivators they get in Pakistan.

Why dont you complain when US and NATO itself are talking with the taliban?

US talks with them to reduce the impact of terrorism and reduce the killing of NATO soldiers.Unlike Pakistan, they don't see these taliban as a strategic tool.So much difference.

What kind of hypocrisy is that? You want Pakistan to initiate a military operation and yet you dont want to do the same?

Huh..who is not doing?US is trying to kill them as much as possible retraining themselves into the diplomatic arena.But they can have also one limit of restrain.

And whats with the fetish of punishing us. Do you really believe that? Seriously last time they violated, they had to apologize including the US.

huh..its all some diplomatic formalities.If they loose their limit, they can make pakistan worse than north korea.But unlike north korea, u have TTPs to deal, for that u need US money and arms.

My idea does not matter here and neither is LET our topic. Lets just stick to that.

LET comes in the picture to show that these terrorist groups once created for countering India, but now killings pakistanis itself. As I told u feed snakes, once grown up it may bite its owner also.

Even the US has openly acknowledge Pakistans role in Afghainstan. Do you seriously believe Pakistan can be put aside and Pakistan has no role, you are gravely mistaken because last time we checked it was India that has no space in Afghanistan politics.

US is doing because of Pakistan's insistness, its continues pleading.It's Pakistan's interest to be part in the Afgan mess surely.

AND US hardly came here to clear the mess, they just launched a wrong war at the wrong time and are still nowhere even after so many years and are now talking with the same guys they came here to destroy. So what clearing of mess are you talking about?

Ok..Now u r CONTRADICTING ur own statements. U urself told these ppl made the mess in Afganistan when US left(though only CIA was involved in afganistan).So now US military came to clear these mess, which made Afganistan a real mess.So why r u complaining now?That's why I mentioned, u were happy to be in afgan mess alone.

Wrong because US could not bear Russia in Afghanistan, it wasnt just Pakistan. Without the US interest, they would have care less even if the whole of Pakistan got lost.

Read my post again.Getting Soviets in afganistan would be an existential problem, which Pakistan couldn't bear at any cost.US because of its own interests, helped Pakistan with arms and dollars.But it was Pakisan's primary problem mainly.

In case you haven't noticed i am senior member myself and here for a long time. I am not your average internet fan boy...

The reason i mentioned this and brought in what US owes us because in your initial posts you made it sound like Pakistan is doomed without the US money. Since your lack of knowledge was evident about Pakistan and Pakistanis, i suggest you read a bit more specially about the 90s era.

Writing few thousand posts don't qualify for a knowledgeable and sensible person, who can read behind the line meaning.

What I wrote ".. If you deeply think what will be the consequences and how much Pakistan's already fragile economy and military and its geo political existence heavily depends on that..."

What u replied "for your information much of the money that US pays us is our own, the transit fees."

So you missed the most important point "geo political existence".And unlike 90s now already worried Pakistan economy would collapse easily and pakistan could be no where to show concern about India(Which was in soviet side that time) and the geo political balance will be fully one sided and pakistan would be no where to stand its point.

Than I replied "transit fees is just one type of reimbursement. US reimburse you almost each and everything you spend of fighting your beloved enemy TTP"

U denied replying "I just gave you one example of how US owes money to us... no surprise if you continue to believe otherwise"

 

[softtec]

'Cuz, you know, that strategy is working so well with Iraq, which had over 4,500 civilian deaths last year.

Ahh..don't need to so proud.Pakistan having 6 lakh soldiers also have lost few thousands civilians in last year alone.

Well, with that logic, Afghanistan is a US territory. And since the Taliban runs all over Afghanistan, US should be punished.

Not at all.Its because unlike pakistan, US sees them their direct enemy and getting rid of them.

I don't know how you think having 140,000 soldiers in the Tribal Regions trying to control the areas is somehow showing that Pakistan is letting these militants run all over. Yes, they do run around free in these areas, but the GOP is attempting to control that, so they aren't mere tools.

These are only for TTPs, not the afgan talibans in NW, which makes devastation in afganistan.

Pakistan didn't create the militants. The CIA had the ISI create them to combat the Soviets. So, don't say that they are a problem created by Pakistan

.

Holly crap. Since when ISI acting independently opposite to pakistan foreign policy?
It was pakistan's existential problem of having Soviet in afganistan.Even if US wouldn't help u, whatever the size u had to create them your own.

This is the problem Pakistan if facing. Yes, if the West leaves than Pakistan will be in big trouble. The Afghan Taliban won't forgive a decade of Pakistan helping US. But remember, it's the West that helped creat this problem back in 1979, and it's Pakistan that'll have to pay the price. The only other country that has suffered more is Afghanistan itself.

A big difference..They helped.But you created.Both were responsible.West is suffering so that Pakistan.You suffered more, because u were more involved. So now when West clearing them, why do you complain?

I believe you are mistaking the Taliban with the Al Qaeda Network.

Taliban stayed and grown hand in hand.Al qaeda just anther face and couldn't exist or grown without extremist Taliban help and support.Its an integral part.

Because, you know, it's not like the CIA had any vested interest in funding, training and equipping the militans + Bin Laden to fight the Soviets. And your right, Pakistan should have eliminated them long ago. It's a big embarrassment after seeing how US can do it so quickly and efficiently.

No need to give excuses.
After so much international pressure and over aggressive taliban growth taking over many pakistan cities, u just started this few years back around ur western border.

Your right, America really should get rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. And just carpet bombing any and all possible infrastructure is the most efficient and humane way to do it.

US trying to kicking out al-quaida or its friendly taliban from Afganistan, but unfortunately across the border strategic support for these terrorists making it more tough for them.

So, does the Russian Federation have the right to punish US due CIA-backed militants in the 80's? Or Pakistan, for that matter? Pakistan wouldn't have done so much for the militants had the CIA not wanted it.

Yes they had, but coud't do. So has the countries such as us, uk, france, spain, India etc. all has the right to punish Pakistan.

Your right, the GOP needs to stop telling the youth to kill 100+ people each week in suicide bombings. And stop giving them so much free prime time TV, plus free web site hosting. Those 140,000 servants that Pakistan sent there need to called back as well.

The only militants this might apply to is the Kashmiri ones, but they have been banned in Pakistan. And they aren't the ones attacking Pakistan each week.

These jehadis, who kills ur ppl, were also not meant to be created and nurtured for that reason.But as I told, u feed snakes, once grown up they can bite the master also.

Some of the India centric terrorist organizations just recently got banned after mounting international pressure.But still freely recruit or brainwash ur youths for anti India jehad.

Clean up the mess? Because their guilty conscience was what drove them, right? Not like they lost 3,000 civilians in some random plane attack or nothing. And off course, they are letting all Pakistanis vacation while they fix up Afghanistan. How quaint. Your right, why are Pakistanis be complaining.

They got to know when they were being hit badly.Why it matters that for what reason US conscience got alive?
After all you ppl think Afganistan was in mess because US left and Pak had to deal with alone. So now US came with full force(not just CIA) to clear the mess.Why now pakistanis badly want the US go back home soonner and insisting to be in afgan mess again?

Oh yeah, because US loved communism and just wanted to see it flourish. The Korean and Vietnam war are a proof of that. Off course, the only reason they would go into Afghanistan is to help their time tested ally, Pakistan.

Read my comment in reply of Icecold.

They cover every, single, little penny? They don't leave anything out? Including the loss in investment and paying for the structural damage? Damn, Americans are pretty generous.

As much they r covering isn't that much.After all what you are getting rid of TTPs, which are your headache for Pakistan.So you r saving your ppl everyday with the help of US.Don't u think its much a big favor US doing?After all you still use them, who are US enemy as ur strategic tool and they kill NATO forces. And still US and West show retrains to you.