Pakistan, US at odds over definition

[Rumporum]

Well said, Vassnti, Sir. It seems pretty clear that Haqqani has been, and still is, Pakistan's favorite jihadi.

Aka the good Taliban

 

[Rumporum]

Nonsense no one is going out from Pakistan to kill anybody infact the very opposite is happening.Pakistan suffered more loss both economically and physically. No body else suffered even the half of that and that gives us the full right to follow the route which serves our national interest and not that of anyone else. As for punishing No body invited the US to attack on a a country and put the whole region into chaos.
Your second point is even more rubbish since those so called enemies were once friends of the US too. Problem arose when US left the region after the soviet withdrawal and left Pakistan to deal with the mess, a war torn country, with whom you share a long pours border.
Your third point shows your indian mentality which has nothing to do with the topic, we can stand without the aid or we cant, i dont think i need to prove this to somebody across the border who sees everything with tainted Indian glass. For you obviously everything that is wrong or goes wrong has to be Pakistans fault. So spare me. I know you guys from across the border have nothing else to bring other then the aid thingi but let me make it clear that The aid that is given to us is not even peanuts to what we have spent so far and the loss that we have suffered economically not to forget the loss of human lives.
And also for your information much of the money that US pays us is our own, the transit fees.

Really??? you seem to be either ignorant our being ignorant out of your own choice.

Simple question in a multiple choice format to you.
Qus: Where did the Taliban who were fighting the Northern alliance get their recruits from?

a) Madrasas in Punjab Province
b) Madrasas in NWFP
c) Madrasas in Sindh Province
d) all of the above


The answer my friends the chickens have come home to roost.

 

[muse]

Rumporum

To be fair, perhaps you may pose the question, not just about recruits but also money, weapons and political support for the Norther Alliance?

We all know how that might come out, right?

 

[r3alist]

Really??? you seem to be either ignorant our being ignorant out of your own choice.

Simple question in a multiple choice format to you.
Qus: Where did the Taliban who were fighting the Northern alliance get their recruits from?

a) Madrasas in Punjab Province
b) Madrasas in NWFP
c) Madrasas in Sindh Province
d) all of the above


The answer my friends the chickens have come home to roost.

you missed out another option - the various criminals the US got from arab prisons who were used as the original fodder to fight american jihadi's.


then you miss out the fact that the funding for these madrassa's come from who?

then you miss the fact that the jihadi's were the idea of who?

and strangely enough once the americans left their creation in pakistan they somehow decided not to organise themselves into a liberal democracy - i mean that must have come as a major shock...

 

[r3alist]

Aka the good Taliban

as if the US regards all taliban as "bad taliban"

you are simply upset that pakistan are choosing to find their own shade of grey between your black and white world.

you simply want pakistan to slavishly follow western dictates - then we are allies

 

[muse]

Good Talib bad Talib?

“There is a certain duality in the American approach: on the one hand they are talking to Haqqani and on the other they are also asking Pakistan to take them on, which Islamabad finds baffling,”

Only the US can decide between good or Bad Talib?

 

[r3alist]

Good Talib bad Talib?



Only the US can decide between good or Bad Talib?

this is precisely the issue, the us dont like pakistan playing them at their own game, hence the constant smearing, at the same time they know they need pakistan therefore the smearing and threats do not descend into open hostility.


i mean it must be frustrating for an american - you just want to go out into NWFP and do as you please with full support of pakistan - but these damn pakistani's have a mind of their own and its frustrating as hell

 

[muse]

r3


The real source of frustration is this "Duality" in the US position -- among US policy makers there are those who are traditionalists, those who do not want to shake up the world, and then there are the radicals, particularly in the US CIA and dept of state, who want to "create" a new paradigm (neocon to the nth degree).

Allies have a right to ask of each other to "give", to "do more" for each other, but they negate any notion of alliance when one side is give up any notion of national interest in favor of "interests" of a handful of individuals motivated by a unique ideology.

Some US interlocutors ask, why the Talib continue to be a force among Afghans, after all, the US offers all kinds of money, aid, development, medical clinics and such (Can you not hear the echo of the communists?) and the Talib offer nothing, nothing --- and of course it's true --- As if Pashtun have nothing in common, as if their sense of nationalism must be subject to a definition of a handful of Kabuli radicals out to "change the world", As if it is "dulce et decorum est" to buy into this radical paradigm (Again, Can you really not hear the echo of the Communist and his Rus, firing automatic weapons on innocent farmers in the fields, even as they crossed over into Tajikistan, on their way home.)

 

[r3alist]

The real source of frustration is this "Duality" in the US position -- among US policy makers there are those who are traditionalists, those who do not want to shake up the world, and then there are the radicals, particularly in the US CIA and dept of state, who want to "create" a new paradigm (neocon to the nth degree).

th traditionalists? where are they, us policy has been a drowning in a sea of neo-conservatism non stop since 9/11 - the traditionalists and paleo conservatives are fringe voices.

Allies have a right to ask of each other to "give", to "do more" for each other, but they negate any notion of alliance when one side is give up any notion of national interest in favor of "interests" of a handful of individuals motivated by a unique ideology.

sure, if you are already friends then you can refer to one another as allies but pakistan never been an ally in any meaningful sense - at best they have been partners.

post 9/11 pakistan were not asked to be allies - they were TOLD that they will be "allies" and that master/slave dynamic has characterised the relation since then - masters dont like rebellious slaves!

 

[muse]

pakistan never been an ally in any meaningful sense - at best they have been partners.

The US referred to them as "ally" but I would and I think many from a variety of opinion, would agree that US and Pakistan, give a new meaning to the word "ally" - it's really sad.

post 9/11 pakistan were not asked to be allies - they were TOLD that they will be "allies" and that master/slave dynamic has characterised the relation since then - masters dont like rebellious slaves!

I'm not sure that's accurate, the "alliance" to the degree that it is one, is dysfunctional - it's just so strange to have such a huge divergence between so called "allies" -- for whatever arguments are put to highlight Pakistani positions in a negative light, I think, the one proposition that people thinking about US policy and policy makers must consider and actually have a real answer to, is why it is that the US has developed such a chasm between any Muslim majority country and itself.

Also I think the "Master/Slave" thing is just plain wrong - by your own earlier statement about "frustration", we cannot conclude that this characterization has merit -- and US is not the only game in town, it is a major player, but not the only major player -- and lets be fair, extremism and terrorism are real problems, and even more so for Pakistan than for the US.

 

[Rumporum]

as if the US regards all taliban as "bad taliban"

you are simply upset that pakistan are choosing to find their own shade of grey between your black and white world.

you simply want pakistan to slavishly follow western dictates - then we are allies

Not at all Pakistan is free to choose for its own best interest who to support or not. Whom to follow or not

In my opinion only it would be best to dismantle these groups and basically work towards the betterment of the people i.e. distribution of wealth and general well being. That's my opinion

 

[Rumporum]

you missed out another option - the various criminals the US got from arab prisons who were used as the original fodder to fight american jihadi's.


then you miss out the fact that the funding for these madrassa's come from who?

then you miss the fact that the jihadi's were the idea of who?


YouTube - Brzezinski And The Mujahideen Boys


and strangely enough once the americans left their creation in pakistan they somehow decided not to organise themselves into a liberal democracy - i mean that must have come as a major shock...

Definitely agree that the funding during the Afghan war came from out side West and the Gulf. After the war Gulf for 1 side and Russia, India and the rest supported another faction. In short this scenario made piece meal of the Afghan people due to the in-fighting among the Afghans.

Along with the Afghans who suffered the most and still suffer the most are the ordinary people of Pakistan.The same regimes who funded the Madrasas also made sure that their own localradical elements Mujahideen who they supported during the Afghan war to go to Pakistan did not return or were not allowed to return and stayed in Afghanistan/Pakistan. The consequences are starkly visible today, In hindsight one can say that involvement in the Afghan war overall wasn't beneficially for Pakistan, however only thing one can do today is basically is to neutralize these people and that too not militarily however by providing or investing in social welfare, creation of jobs, education etc...etc.. else there is no way out of this.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

How about this for definition

"GET OUT" OF OUR BACK YARD