Pakistan, Turkey sign three documents elevating defence industry cooperation to a new level

[imadul]

i don't understand one thing that why do people here think paf will get only 1 type of stealth fighter. Chinese 5th gen are almost ready. Since we cant match with IAF with f16s and thunders alone , we need an off the shelf solution in some squadron strengrh to keep up until 2030 by then we have 2 routes which can be separate or could be merged and they will be used to replace f16s and later thunders. 1st route is indigenous Jet with our own design and avionics . Will take 16-17 years and wont be completely indigenous. 2nd route TFX , which will take not more than 14 years to mass produce. Since TFX involves huge companies such as BAE , TAI and also TAI has gained much "know how" by collaborating in F-35 Project and as we know turkey is heavily investing in R&D on avionics and even turbo fans , So we have this option too. One merger option between these 2 is to provide our own design , participate in TFX program as first partners , and send our workforce to gain much knowledge. Meanwhile develop main avionics such as AESA radar , EW suites , cockpit systems , at home indigenously to be used on our units of TFX . This way we will gain huge experience on jet building while working with TAI ASELSAN and BAE and also our kamra aviation city project will continue to flourish. Since turkey will get its own engine flying by 2035-40 , we wont have any problem or fear of sanctions from Rolls-Royce (or maybe it isnt even now a fear) , we will have a sanction free beast

Sensible and pragmatic approach, I think PAF will take. Off the shelf FC-31 when it is ready in few years. SAC were looking investment partners, and I think Pakistan should invest upto $500 milion instead looking around for 2nd hand, 3rd hand fighters becauase thunders can do the job. This will make PAF stake holders in the SAC FC-31 and help abe to maintain the fighters. Dont forget LO planes require lots of expensive maintenace.
Pakistan should join TFX project as you said, if at all possible, as a partner. PAF can continue its investment in local parts and can integrate on Pak TFX versions or supply as vendor. Becoming a partner in the program will be a huge step and will bring innumerable benefits.

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Pak hindrance is only financial. There wont be issues with export controls. BAE will only transfer those technologies to TAI that it has intellectual rights, not from JSF-35. Once they are in TFX, they will become TAI properly. Remember BAE major role is that of a technological consultant. They will help in development.

 

[T-123456]

View attachment 396260

BS,it is simple,all rights will belong to TAI.

 

[Fledgingwings]

Sounds Great !

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Pak hindrance is only financial. There wont be issues with export controls. BAE will only transfer those technologies to TAI that it has intellectual rights, not from JSF-35. Once they are in TFX, they will become TAI properly. Remember BAE major role is that of a technological consultant. They will help in development.

As much as I deeply love and respect Pakistani people for their history, courage and willpower - you're by far the most interesting people in the Islamic world - I've strong doubts about Pakistan's participation in this project.

Personally, I don't think that Pakistan will be a major partner except for industrial cooperation and production of certain parts. This is not a defense issue, it's rather politics. What we people on PDF unfortunately refuse to believe is India's scope of influence in the United Kingdom.

It's true, Brexit is a huge opportunity for Turkey. I'm convinced that Brexit was/is one of the main reasons for the Brits to work together with us on this critical project. But Brexit also created new dependencies for the UK in reference to a new foreign policy.

I'm afraid that India's importance for London has strongly increased. India is not powerful enough to stop cooperation between two NATO partners and allies like London and Ankara. But they're going to put pressure on UK to ensure that Pakistan will stay out of this project. At the end of the day, the British gov't promised many times a comprehensive FTA with India. It should be pointed out that negotiations between EU and UK could end without a satisfying outcome. If this happens, London will do anything to ink a trade deal with India. This time New Delhi holds the whip hand.

Of course, once this project is completed, Pakistan will likely buy some subsidized planes. However, I'm firmly convinced that India's goal is to reduce the possible knowhow Pakistan could gain from this project.

Maybe I'm too one-sided in my analysis?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @The Eagle @Blue Marlin @Bilal Khan 777 @Arsalan @HRK @Horus @Zarvan @Oscar @TOPGUN @monitor @Rashid Mahmood @Muhammad Omar @AZADPAKISTAN2009 et al.

 

[Awan68]

As much as I deeply love and respect Pakistani people for their history, courage and willpower - you're by far the most interesting people in the Islamic world - I've strong doubts about Pakistan's participation in this project.

Personally, I don't think that Pakistan will be a major partner except for industrial cooperation and production of certain parts. This is not a defense issue, it's rather politics. What we people on PDF unfortunately refuse to believe is India's scope of influence in the United Kingdom.

It's true, Brexit is a huge opportunity for Turkey. I'm convinced that Brexit was/is one of the main reasons for the Brits to work together with us on this critical project. But Brexit also created new dependencies for the UK in reference to a new foreign policy.

I'm afraid that India's importance for London has strongly increased. India is not powerful enough to stop cooperation between two NATO partners and allies like London and Ankara. But they're going to put pressure on UK to ensure that Pakistan will stay out of this project. At the end of the day, the British gov't promised many times a comprehensive FTA with India. It should be pointed out that negotiations between EU and UK could end without a satisfying outcome. If this happens, London will do anything to ink a trade deal with India. This time New Delhi holds the whip hand.

Of course, once this project is completed, Pakistan will likely buy some subsidized planes. However, I'm firmly convinced that India's goal is to reduce the possible knowhow Pakistan could gain from this project.

Maybe I'm too one-sided in my analysis?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @The Eagle @Blue Marlin @Bilal Khan 777 @Arsalan @HRK @Horus @Zarvan @Oscar @TOPGUN @monitor @Rashid Mahmood @Muhammad Omar @AZADPAKISTAN2009

Man no offence but its not like we dont have other options, if truth be told, our priority is participation in j31, collaboration with chinese, we are deep into chinese defence industry so we may know a lot more about 5th gen than countries that are just now starting thier projects, participation in tfx is a plus for pakistan and britain is not that easy to bully, its not srilanka or nepal, india just cant go around poking its nose everywhere, their bully tactics only work on little states...

The Chinese program is almost finished,you join a program at the beginning somewhere,not at the end(then you only buy).
What strategic or political reasons are you talking about,can you elaborate?

Things work a little differently here in pak, they drop bombshells here all of a sudden that we were into this n that lol, secrecy is something the pakistani state values above all, if pakistan joined j 31 im sure we wont hear about it until the production prototype is out...

 

[Fledgingwings]

I would love to see one of these here.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Man no offence but its not like we dont have other options, if truth be told, our priority is participation in j31, collaboration with chinese, we are deep into chinese defence industry so we may know a lot more about 5th gen than countries that are just now starting thier projects, participation in tfx is a plus for pakistan and britain is not that easy to bully, its not srilanka or nepal, india just cant go around poking its nose everywhere, their bully tactics only work on little states...

It is not my intention to belittle Pakistan. Pakistanis are still ahead of Turkey in many critical technologies regarding the defense industry. Still, I'm a hardcore realist. I see the current situation of GB in Europe and London's enthusiasm for India's consumer market. When it comes to economy, the British will always choose India over Pakistan. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right. If this is the case, I sincerely apologize.

 

[imadul]

As much as I deeply love and respect Pakistani people for their history, courage and willpower - you're by far the most interesting people in the Islamic world - I've strong doubts about Pakistan's participation in this project.

Personally, I don't think that Pakistan will be a major partner except for industrial cooperation and production of certain parts. This is not a defense issue, it's rather politics. What we people on PDF unfortunately refuse to believe is India's scope of influence in the United Kingdom.

It's true, Brexit is a huge opportunity for Turkey. I'm convinced that Brexit was/is one of the main reasons for the Brits to work together with us on this critical project. But Brexit also created new dependencies for the UK in reference to a new foreign policy.

I'm afraid that India's importance for London has strongly increased. India is not powerful enough to stop cooperation between two NATO partners and allies like London and Ankara. But they're going to put pressure on UK to ensure that Pakistan will stay out of this project. At the end of the day, the British gov't promised many times a comprehensive FTA with India. It should be pointed out that negotiations between EU and UK could end without a satisfying outcome. If this happens, London will do anything to ink a trade deal with India. This time New Delhi holds the whip hand.

Of course, once this project is completed, Pakistan will likely buy some subsidized planes. However, I'm firmly convinced that India's goal is to reduce the possible knowhow Pakistan could gain from this project.

Maybe I'm too one-sided in my analysis?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @The Eagle @Blue Marlin @Bilal Khan 777 @Arsalan @HRK @Horus @Zarvan @Oscar @TOPGUN @monitor @Rashid Mahmood @Muhammad Omar @AZADPAKISTAN2009 et al.

Point taken, but you are looking too much. TAI-TFX|BAE is a commercial deal b/w TAI AND BAE. Theresa May was there in Ankara when £100 million deal was signed. UK see this as expansion of its avaiation market. Turkey is market and Pak will be an additional market. For UK, not much going in fighter plane market right now. I am not an aviation observer, so could be wrong on that, but it is ludicrous to assume India will have a veto on UK commeecial deals.

 

[BRAVO_]

though the news is not yet confirmed by any authentic source however keeping in view the previous efforts made by turkish companies involved in T-129 development such as Aselsan,Roketsan & Mizrak. it seems finally the deal is done ... a great news for both of countries

 

[imadul]

It is not my intention to belittle Pakistan. Pakistanis are still ahead of Turkey in many critical technologies regarding the defense industry. Still, I'm a hardcore realist. I see the current situation of GB in Europe and London's enthusiasm for India's consumer market. When it comes to economy, the British will always choose India over Pakistan. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right. If this is the case, I sincerely apologize.

You dont need to apologize. People can sense sincerity

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

i don't understand one thing that why do people here think paf will get only 1 type of stealth fighter. Chinese 5th gen are almost ready. Since we cant match with IAF with f16s and thunders alone , we need an off the shelf solution in some squadron strengrh to keep up until 2030 by then we have 2 routes which can be separate or could be merged and they will be used to replace f16s and later thunders. 1st route is indigenous Jet with our own design and avionics . Will take 16-17 years and wont be completely indigenous. 2nd route TFX , which will take not more than 14 years to mass produce. Since TFX involves huge companies such as BAE , TAI and also TAI has gained much "know how" by collaborating in F-35 Project and as we know turkey is heavily investing in R&D on avionics and even turbo fans , So we have this option too. One merger option between these 2 is to provide our own design , participate in TFX program as first partners , and send our workforce to gain much knowledge. Meanwhile develop main avionics such as AESA radar , EW suites , cockpit systems , at home indigenously to be used on our units of TFX . This way we will gain huge experience on jet building while working with TAI ASELSAN and BAE and also our kamra aviation city project will continue to flourish. Since turkey will get its own engine flying by 2035-40 , we wont have any problem or fear of sanctions from Rolls-Royce (or maybe it isnt even now a fear) , we will have a sanction free beast

That's what I am also hinting at. PAF may operate 3 different fifth generation fighters in future. The Chinese and Turkish solutions will be acquired for the technological leapfrogging they might provide and that they are inherently different in their purposes. While from the learning curve that will originate from TFX and J31 will be incorporated into the indigenous 5th gen jet. TFX and J-31 would be thus acquired for the technological benefits owing to their specialized roles and not more than 2-4 Squadrons of each would be got. Whereas the indigenous jet will latter come to when it's time to replace Thunders to make up numbers.

 

[Cookie Monster]

It is not my intention to belittle Pakistan. Pakistanis are still ahead of Turkey in many critical technologies regarding the defense industry. Still, I'm a hardcore realist. I see the current situation of GB in Europe and London's enthusiasm for India's consumer market. When it comes to economy, the British will always choose India over Pakistan. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right. If this is the case, I sincerely apologize.

No need for apologies. It's good to view things from all angles and consider the worst possibilities so that one may be prepared if it ever happens. With that said I respectfully disagree with ur assessment. UK isn't that easy to boss around for India. While UK may look towards India, especially after the Brexit, as a lucrative market but it doesn't mean that India would own UK and interfere with its decisions. UK can easily replace India with China and get on with its ambitions. The Cold War era of states aligning themselves into either one camp or another is gone. I think that in the short term Pakistan would go with an off the shelf Chinese option(J31 or something like that)..and in the long term Pakistan would collaborate with Turkey(at least to some extent) for the next platform(other than J31). Pakistan has had a history of buying Chinese equipment with modifications(swapping out a few things with Western tech). If that's any indication to predict the future, I think Pak would collaborate and learn from both China and Turkey to get the best mix of eastern and western tech while working towards its future platforms.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

As much as I deeply love and respect Pakistani people for their history, courage and willpower - you're by far the most interesting people in the Islamic world - I've strong doubts about Pakistan's participation in this project.

Personally, I don't think that Pakistan will be a major partner except for industrial cooperation and production of certain parts. This is not a defense issue, it's rather politics. What we people on PDF unfortunately refuse to believe is India's scope of influence in the United Kingdom.

It's true, Brexit is a huge opportunity for Turkey. I'm convinced that Brexit was/is one of the main reasons for the Brits to work together with us on this critical project. But Brexit also created new dependencies for the UK in reference to a new foreign policy.

I'm afraid that India's importance for London has strongly increased. India is not powerful enough to stop cooperation between two NATO partners and allies like London and Ankara. But they're going to put pressure on UK to ensure that Pakistan will stay out of this project. At the end of the day, the British gov't promised many times a comprehensive FTA with India. It should be pointed out that negotiations between EU and UK could end without a satisfying outcome. If this happens, London will do anything to ink a trade deal with India. This time New Delhi holds the whip hand.

Of course, once this project is completed, Pakistan will likely buy some subsidized planes. However, I'm firmly convinced that India's goal is to reduce the possible knowhow Pakistan could gain from this project.

Maybe I'm too one-sided in my analysis?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @The Eagle @Blue Marlin @Bilal Khan 777 @Arsalan @HRK @Horus @Zarvan @Oscar @TOPGUN @monitor @Rashid Mahmood @Muhammad Omar @AZADPAKISTAN2009 et al.

It may be the other way round too!!! The Turkish folks may be more interested to have Pak in the team since they have already built a fighter themselves in cooperation with China from the scratch. Devils lie in details, and you need to slay them with Zulfikers of knowledge, skills, patience and hard work. While developing such large scale systems with such established players the following points are the key:

• Your motivation and will to grasp and learn must be >>>> theirs.
• Swallow your egos. It's your headache - they're just contractors.
• Ask the right questions, and ensure that you've got the right answers.
• Get prepared and think ahead a few steps above the current level.
• Don't go for short cuts.
• Verify the info whether it makes sense or not.
• Ensure that you can replicate the skills that have been transferred, and they are well settled in your mindset.
• At the end of the day, it boils down to individuals at the both side of the parties. So, build proper one-to-one rapports.
• And, the list continues..

Unless one has gone down this lane by taking all the pains, it's difficult to fathom from the outset.

"Genius is nothing but infinite capacity to take pains" - Samuel Smiles (Life and labor)

 

[imadul]

It may be the other way round too!!! The Turkish folks may be more interested to have Pak in the team since they have already built a fighter themselves in cooperation with China from the scratch. Devils lie in details, and you need to slay them with Zulfikers of knowledge, skills, patience and hard work. While developing such large scale systems with such established players the following points are the key:

• Your motivation and will to grasp and learn must be >>>> theirs.
• Swallow your egos. It's your headache - they're just contractors.
• Ask the right questions, and ensure that you've got the right answers.
• Get prepared and think ahead a few steps above the current level.
• Don't go for short cuts.
• Verify the info whether it makes sense or not.
• Ensure that you can replicate the skills that have been transferred, and they are well settled in your mindset.
• At the end of the day, it boils down to individuals at the both side of the parties. So, build proper one-to-one rapports.
• And, the list continues..

Unless one has gone down this lane by taking all the pains, it's difficult to fathom from the outset.

"Genius is nothing but infinite capacity to take pains" - Samuel Smiles (Life and labor)

Words of Wisdom! From Land Of Rumi!
(Rumi, Born in Balkh, buried in Qunia, Turkey)

 

[Pyara9]

It is not my intention to belittle Pakistan. Pakistanis are still ahead of Turkey in many critical technologies regarding the defense industry. Still, I'm a hardcore realist. I see the current situation of GB in Europe and London's enthusiasm for India's consumer market. When it comes to economy, the British will always choose India over Pakistan. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right. If this is the case, I sincerely apologize.

No need to apologise at all brother. here is my .02cents.
Anyways let's just assess Bea for a second, what have they produced related to 5th gen Aviation in the past? Electronic warfare systems for f-22/f35, electronic missile defense systems.
Is Turkey using any of those for tfx? not that im aware of.

What is Turkey getting from Bea? basic know how thats all. for Which contract has already been signed and they have been paid accordingly.

So if Turkey isn't using any of their systems they simply can't dictate terms. Even if turkey is using some of their systems Turkey can simply replace those systems with something else n sell to who ever Turkey wants. Just like Turkey sold Corvettes to Pakistan without amerian systems.

It's a Turkish Project, Turkey gets to dictate terms not some sub contractor. Sub contractors can easily be replaced. I mean Bea isn't even a partner in the project just hired help.

That was the entire purpose of this project no? Indigenous 5th gen fighter jet.

If turkey just wanted a 5th gen fighter with partners that's something Turkey already has in the shape of F-35.