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Pakistan-Turkey 4 Milgem Ada Class Corvettes Contract - Construction started

HRK said:
Would please recheck as far as I remember it was successfully tested for 45 KM ... Though i agree CAMM-ER
official range is 45 KM
Click to expand...
its kind of misleading, janes claimed a camm kill at 60km but that was literally at the very edge of its engagement capabilities, against a very easy target too, not representative of actual real performance

Tank131 said:
1. Babur's will use CAMM-ER whose official range is 45km+... The + is key here. Standard CAMM (official range 25km+) has been documented by Janes to be tested out to 60km successfully. That tells me the range of CAMM-ER is probably closer to 80-90km if not more.

2. As i stated HQ-16FE is NOT yet available for PN. It not even in service in PLAN, nor are HQ-16B/C. When they become available, then we can discuss thatbut even if HQ-16EF gets inducted on upgraded 054AG as you state, it will be years before it would be available to PN due to shear number of 054A that would need refit in PLAN. Additionally Baburs have relatively small availability of deck space. Their appears to be room for only 12 cell CAMM-ER launchers (while we were 1ll expecting 16-hopefully will eventually be updated 8 cells of MIDLAS/MDAS) VLS which allows for quad-packing. The CAMM-ER has a very small footprint allowing for 12 SAMS on Baburs. Using HQ-16 would likely only allow for 8 missiles at most.
Click to expand...
as above
 
I think its a futile debate that which one is PN's top ship.

I believe that we got good deals on both Type54APs and Baburs. PN got 4 quite capable frigates at subsidized rates. China's shipbuilding is the greatest in the world. It has huge production and number of hulls it produces is astonishing so that large scale production eventually makes per unit cost lower. Plus PN might have packaged the frigates and Hangoor subs together. On the other hand, Turkey / West cannot do the same but what we are getting is very important for the future. The 1.5B dollar package will be totally worth if Jinnah class becomes a success and PN produce atleast 4-6 units.

Some members have already given their verdict that Baburs are more advanced. I won't like to do so, as both ships have their strengths. If Babur is carrying subsonic Ashm and Tughrils are carrying Supersonic ones that I'd definitely rate Tughrils more capable to land a successful Anti-ship strike.

As far as SAMs are concerned, I agree at the moment Baburs have advantage but its more than likely that PN will get upgraded HHQ-16 versions down the lane. The VLS is their and no structural changes needed. At the same time, I really doubt that any western company will ever sell PN the long range SAM (more than 100 Kms). Long range SAM gives significant capability, At the moment PN has no long range solution even with Baburs or Tughrils that's why I think PN will eventually like to receive upgraded versions of HHQ16s.


Lastly, Tughrils have one obvious advantage and that is they are bigger. A full 1000 ton bigger than Baburs. One fact that stood test of times is that larger the ship the better. Larger ship can carry more weapons, heavier weapons, more & heavier equipment, sensors and radars, more countermeasure equipment, more space gives all these options for future upgrades. Furthermore, bigger ship is more likely to withstand a direct hit or not sink with a single strike.

Strengths of Baburs are already discussed by other members. For me their greatest point is the knowledge and production facilities that will transform into Jinnah frigates. How good we makes use of it is upto Pakistan Navy. Previous experiences for purchasing IP rights and all the technology for Agostas etc weren't very positive. I really hope things will turn around this time.
 
CivilianSupremacy said:
I think its a futile debate that which one is PN's top ship.

I believe that we got good deals on both Type54APs and Baburs. PN got 4 quite capable frigates at subsidized rates. China's shipbuilding is the greatest in the world. It has huge production and number of hulls it produces is astonishing so that large scale production eventually makes per unit cost lower. Plus PN might have packaged the frigates and Hangoor subs together. On the other hand, Turkey / West cannot do the same but what we are getting is very important for the future. The 1.5B dollar package will be totally worth if Jinnah class becomes a success and PN produce atleast 4-6 units.

Some members have already given their verdict that Baburs are more advanced. I won't like to do so, as both ships have their strengths. If Babur is carrying subsonic Ashm and Tughrils are carrying Supersonic ones that I'd definitely rate Tughrils more capable to land a successful Anti-ship strike.

As far as SAMs are concerned, I agree at the moment Baburs have advantage but its more than likely that PN will get upgraded HHQ-16 versions down the lane. The VLS is their and no structural changes needed. At the same time, I really doubt that any western company will ever sell PN the long range SAM (more than 100 Kms). Long range SAM gives significant capability, At the moment PN has no long range solution even with Baburs or Tughrils that's why I think PN will eventually like to receive upgraded versions of HHQ16s.


Lastly, Tughrils have one obvious advantage and that is they are bigger. A full 1000 ton bigger than Baburs. One fact that stood test of times is that larger the ship the better. Larger ship can carry more weapons, heavier weapons, more & heavier equipment, sensors and radars, more countermeasure equipment, more space gives all these options for future upgrades. Furthermore, bigger ship is more likely to withstand a direct hit or not sink with a single strike.

Strengths of Baburs are already discussed by other members. For me their greatest point is the knowledge and production facilities that will transform into Jinnah frigates. How good we makes use of it is upto Pakistan Navy. Previous experiences for purchasing IP rights and all the technology for Agostas etc weren't very positive. I really hope things will turn around this time.
Click to expand...
"I believe that we got good deals on both Type54APs and Baburs. PN got 4 quite capable frigates at subsidized rates. China's shipbuilding is the greatest in the world. It has huge production and number of hulls it produces is astonishing so that large scale production eventually makes per unit cost lower. Plus PN might have packaged the frigates and Hangoor subs together. On the other hand, Turkey / West cannot do the same but what we are getting is very important for the future. The 1.5B dollar package will be totally worth if Jinnah class becomes a success and PN produce atleast 4-6 units."

The issue of Chinas shipbuilding is not really relevant to this, its usually an argument used to compare the poor state of US shipyards in the case of a conflict. The reality is, the 054A actually a fair bit more expensive than what we paid. The same PLA leaker mentioned the PN paid significantly less than what the PLAN paid as the ships were subsidized. On top of this, they also have some level of degraded capabilities as some sensors were deleted, i.e the Towed Array (im not sure about the bow sonar though). The packaging of the Hangor and 054A is also not entirely relevant as both are built by different shipyards, with Hangor being built by Wuhan shipyards and 054A by Huangpu. Once again, the comparison of shipbuilding capabilities is not particularly relevant. In terms of numbers being built, we have already got 4 Babur class ships, which are customized and designed with our input in mind. Of course, with Jinnah, this is only further developed into another order of at least 4-6 ships. So we know it will materialise anyway.

"Some members have already given their verdict that Baburs are more advanced. I won't like to do so, as both ships have their strengths. If Babur is carrying subsonic Ashm and Tughrils are carrying Supersonic ones that I'd definitely rate Tughrils more capable to land a successful Anti-ship strike. "

The PN has two AShM programs in the works, SMASH and P282, P282 was stated to be a ship-based AShBM, with little to no details about SMASH. But, let me put on my realism hat for a second, the Chinese unveiled the YJ-21E, an export variant of their VLS-launched AShBM, its likely that P282 will just be a containerized version of this IMO, why this is relevant to this is because in the same way P282 is likely to be a domesticated YJ-21E, SMASH is probably going to be a local variant of the CM302, carried by the Tughril. The PN seems to refuse to officially recognise the anti-ship loadout on the Tughril, a possible explanation could be that by them doing so, either they need to refer to it as the CM302 or as SMASH, but by referring to it as the former, it discredits SMASH, by referring to it as the latter, they are jumping the gun as it is not fully ready yet (last year at PNMC maripur they begun work on a P282 storage complex, but none for SMASH yet.). It is likely that both ships will actually carry the same anti-shipping armament, but in the worst case, if they were to be equipped with Harbah, id argue the trade-off is a slower, but stealthier and smarter missile(PN has multi-mode seeker harbahs). But the comparisons above were in terms of defensive ability, i was the first person on this forum to harp about the limitations of the HQ-16, i will summarise for you here:

The primary issue with the 054A is its ability to defend against swarm attacks, the IN has ships with 8-16 VLS BrahMos, already a challenging target, but then, when we look at the HQ-16, the issue is that they require target illumination, the ships carry 4 MR90, one in each corner, however, each system can only guide 2 missiles at a time, so you are firstly limited in how many missiles can defend each sector (4 at a time MAX), and then secondly, how many targets you can intercept, Lets say hypothetically, we are attacked from ALL sides, we can intercept 4-8 targets, generally 4 with 2 missiles per target, that puts the ship in massive amounts of danger when attacked in a rapid fashion. Im sure you can imagine what happens if all the missiles are coming from one side.

A great example of the limitation of SARH missiles like these were the moskva downing, granted, it carried only one large illuminator, but the point is, the illuminator was being used against a different target, meaning the ship was left vulnerable to attack from the other 270 degrees, resulting in it becoming a submarine.

This problem isnt present with CAMM-ER.

Also, size and tonnage isnt thaaat relevant, see the SA'AR 6, as you can tell my laziness has kicked in and i cant be bothered to finish lol
 
CivilianSupremacy said:
subsonic
Click to expand...
Babur will carry anti Ship Hypersonic Ballistic Missile P-282

Now IN will have to carry BMD systems on ships.B/C conventional SAMs have very low operational altitude for BM interception (25-30km) so specific BMD systems will be needed on ships.
CivilianSupremacy said:
Previous experiences for purchasing IP rights
Click to expand...
I think there was no IP transfer with Agosta Submarines just kit assembly by KS&EW
Same like Type 039 submarines
Do not expect PN to build submarines at home after Type 039 submarines local assembly.
For indeginous capabilities,PN will go for a joint venture with Turkey.
 
arslank03 said:
P282 is likely to be a domesticated YJ-21E,
Click to expand...
Original YJ-21 has 1000-1500km range.Given that our history with missile systems is quite old,i suspect that P-282+ will have longer range than that of YJ-21E.
The notice was for P282 storage facility but Naval chief said
"Ship Based Anti Ship & Land Attack BM P-282+ is under development "
So P-282 is direct assembly of YJ 21E but P-282+ is its further development.
Finally that "+" makes sense.

And this can be totally wrong also 😁
 
arslank03 said:
"I believe that we got good deals on both Type54APs and Baburs. PN got 4 quite capable frigates at subsidized rates. China's shipbuilding is the greatest in the world. It has huge production and number of hulls it produces is astonishing so that large scale production eventually makes per unit cost lower. Plus PN might have packaged the frigates and Hangoor subs together. On the other hand, Turkey / West cannot do the same but what we are getting is very important for the future. The 1.5B dollar package will be totally worth if Jinnah class becomes a success and PN produce atleast 4-6 units."

The issue of Chinas shipbuilding is not really relevant to this, its usually an argument used to compare the poor state of US shipyards in the case of a conflict. The reality is, the 054A actually a fair bit more expensive than what we paid. The same PLA leaker mentioned the PN paid significantly less than what the PLAN paid as the ships were subsidized. On top of this, they also have some level of degraded capabilities as some sensors were deleted, i.e the Towed Array (im not sure about the bow sonar though). The packaging of the Hangor and 054A is also not entirely relevant as both are built by different shipyards, with Hangor being built by Wuhan shipyards and 054A by Huangpu. Once again, the comparison of shipbuilding capabilities is not particularly relevant. In terms of numbers being built, we have already got 4 Babur class ships, which are customized and designed with our input in mind. Of course, with Jinnah, this is only further developed into another order of at least 4-6 ships. So we know it will materialise anyway.

"Some members have already given their verdict that Baburs are more advanced. I won't like to do so, as both ships have their strengths. If Babur is carrying subsonic Ashm and Tughrils are carrying Supersonic ones that I'd definitely rate Tughrils more capable to land a successful Anti-ship strike. "

The PN has two AShM programs in the works, SMASH and P282, P282 was stated to be a ship-based AShBM, with little to no details about SMASH. But, let me put on my realism hat for a second, the Chinese unveiled the YJ-21E, an export variant of their VLS-launched AShBM, its likely that P282 will just be a containerized version of this IMO, why this is relevant to this is because in the same way P282 is likely to be a domesticated YJ-21E, SMASH is probably going to be a local variant of the CM302, carried by the Tughril. The PN seems to refuse to officially recognise the anti-ship loadout on the Tughril, a possible explanation could be that by them doing so, either they need to refer to it as the CM302 or as SMASH, but by referring to it as the former, it discredits SMASH, by referring to it as the latter, they are jumping the gun as it is not fully ready yet (last year at PNMC maripur they begun work on a P282 storage complex, but none for SMASH yet.). It is likely that both ships will actually carry the same anti-shipping armament, but in the worst case, if they were to be equipped with Harbah, id argue the trade-off is a slower, but stealthier and smarter missile(PN has multi-mode seeker harbahs). But the comparisons above were in terms of defensive ability, i was the first person on this forum to harp about the limitations of the HQ-16, i will summarise for you here:

The primary issue with the 054A is its ability to defend against swarm attacks, the IN has ships with 8-16 VLS BrahMos, already a challenging target, but then, when we look at the HQ-16, the issue is that they require target illumination, the ships carry 4 MR90, one in each corner, however, each system can only guide 2 missiles at a time, so you are firstly limited in how many missiles can defend each sector (4 at a time MAX), and then secondly, how many targets you can intercept, Lets say hypothetically, we are attacked from ALL sides, we can intercept 4-8 targets, generally 4 with 2 missiles per target, that puts the ship in massive amounts of danger when attacked in a rapid fashion. Im sure you can imagine what happens if all the missiles are coming from one side.

A great example of the limitation of SARH missiles like these were the moskva downing, granted, it carried only one large illuminator, but the point is, the illuminator was being used against a different target, meaning the ship was left vulnerable to attack from the other 270 degrees, resulting in it becoming a submarine.

This problem isnt present with CAMM-ER.

Also, size and tonnage isnt thaaat relevant, see the SA'AR 6, as you can tell my laziness has kicked in and i cant be bothered to finish lol
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed reply. I agree to your technical points regarding air defense for both ships.
Its good that PN opted for it. I definitely admire the decision of getting Baburs along with the knowledge that will come through. The CAMM-ER looks a decent system. The only point I have in this regard is that European suppliers will not sell PN a long range SAM. Perhaps its not the requirement for Baburs at the moment anyways. But at some point, PN will definitely need a long range SAM within its main surface combatants. One of the realistic possibilities is through HHQ-16FE.

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:
I think there was no IP transfer with Agosta Submarines just kit assembly by KS&EW
Same like Type 039 submarines
Click to expand...
Maybe you are right but I vividly remember the news of PN buying rights / license for commercial production and selling to other countries and that was done against a good sum of money. Anyways, there isn't much update about JCF or about its schedule. The important thing is PN needs to incorporate and absorb the workflows and knowledge in systematically that the knowledge does not get "lost". I think one of the issues in several previous knowledge transfer accounts were that officials who got years of trainings abroad eventually retired without really utilizing it.
 
CivilianSupremacy said:
Thanks for the detailed reply. I agree to your technical points regarding air defense for both ships.
Its good that PN opted for it. I definitely admire the decision of getting Baburs along with the knowledge that will come through. The CAMM-ER looks a decent system. The only point I have in this regard is that European suppliers will not sell PN a long range SAM. Perhaps its not the requirement for Baburs at the moment anyways. But at some point, PN will definitely need a long range SAM within its main surface combatants. One of the realistic possibilities is through HHQ-16FE.


Maybe you are right but I vividly remember the news of PN buying rights / license for commercial production and selling to other countries and that was done against a good sum of money. Anyways, there isn't much update about JCF or about its schedule. The important thing is PN needs to incorporate and absorb the workflows and knowledge in systematically that the knowledge does not get "lost". I think one of the issues in several previous knowledge transfer accounts were that officials who got years of trainings abroad eventually retired without really utilizing it.
Click to expand...
www.globaldefensecorp.com

UK and Poland to develop 100km range CAMM-MR anti-air missile

Poland and the UK are joining forces to develop an anti-aircraft missile based on the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM). The new development is called CAMM-MR. The UK's CAMM family of anti-aircraft missiles includes only two models so far. The Common CAMM has a launch range of over 25...
www.globaldefensecorp.com www.globaldefensecorp.com

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Princeps Senatus said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1705515779188248612

https://twitter.com/x/status/1705519218731487569
Click to expand...
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— PNS BABUR 🇵🇰
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— TCG HEYBELİADA 🇹🇷
— PNS KAIBAR 🇵🇰


https://twitter.com/x/status/1705574238403395841
 

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