Pakistan top brains join the army compare to the other countries

[jalip]

i will explain latter boss

 

[muse]

First, i would like to clear that the Army need soldiers not scholars

And Scholars cannot be soldiers? Soldiers cannot scholars? Pakistan's military forces are changing because of the profound technical and industrial requirements of these forces and indeed if Pakistani forces are to successfully negotiate this transition, soldier scholars is exactly what they need.

 

[owais.usmani]

Links, that is what you need. Ask your Professors, generally they have links with people working in different places. They can hook you up with somebody working in NESCOM.

Your dream of working in NESCOM….. better put it to rest for your own good. I have worked in KRL, and several dear friends mistakenly joined DESTO. It is not possible for me to give you details (still bound by regulations), but at least I can say you will regret. As Xeric correctly pointed out, Military does not accept Scholars, they need soldiers. Unfortunately, that mindset also exist in R&D facilities established and/or working under the Armed Forces/MoD. Your best shot will be to establish your career independently, and work for the Armed Forces as a consultant. Or join Army as a regular officer and move into Corp of Engineers. You will get all good opportunities to further your studies (provided you show promise and why PA should invest in your studies) and than you can work in NESCOM. You will have advantage of being in 'uniform' which is otherwise a BIG disadvantage in above mentioned institutes working as a civilian.

Ok sir thanks a lot for your kind and detailed advice.

 

[Xeric]

I should have chance to give my point language please if state bank got 50% of budget i would love to i think sir plot is your weak point

First get your figures straight, i'll answer you then.

 

[Xeric]

Ok here it goes, the plot thingy, hope it clears off the doubts, if not, then may God Bless You!

@ Post # 13: A wonderful post i must say, comprehensive and lucid!

Now for the money and land that would allegedly make a soldier in our military rich enough that even Bill Gates would shy off or their next 7 generations for live ion that money!

First, if someone is referring to a General specifically then i must say it speaks of sheer lack of knowledge on their part or may be they have some personal grudge with some general, indeed. Generals, Admirals, Air Marshals, all receive the perks and privileges equally in terms of (allegedly) land, plots, houses etc. So let's not be too specific with the term General, though the word itself mean general, let it not be used so generally!

Second, it seems as if people think that the plots, land etc etc that they claim are given to Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals are free of cost. This again speaks of sheer ignorance and lack of knowledge and i would call it blaming a respectable appointment.

Allow me to clear the dust for once and all, all the plots etc etc that are given to any military officer and the JCOs/NCOs are not given free of cost. They pay for every bit of it just like anyone would pay for some plot in civilian affairs. Yes the differences are as follows:

The Askari Housing Scheme allows all Officer to get 'a' house to their name once in a service. This is not a compulsion but an option with any Officer. 'Unfortunately' he has to pay for that house for the rest of his life. He starts at it as a Lieutenant (when ALL of his class fellows and friends are actually doing pondi outside a girls college, studying or roaming around as vagabonds-meaning simply that they are not earning except for the few who also study and work either they can as they can spare time, like when i was not in the military, people who were studying CS, all were earning after they completed their 2-3 years in university, or they work as a compulsion) i.e when 'respected' civilans are studying the military officers are already earning and paying, thus taking the lead from here, though to be covered up later by his civilian friends when they start earning. Well coming back to the point, so the Lieutenant gets a loan and/or saves money and/or shake his parents and make up the down payment and then from his salary a never ending series of installments begins which will go along till he retires or dies. By the time he retires only half of the cost of that house is paid, so the officer gives a large amount of money out of what he gets when he retires. So that's the story of someone who retires as a Major in the Army. Thanks to the excellent, transparent and efficient planning and quality control displayed by Askari Housing Scheme that and Officers is able to own a house after he has given a life-time to the military.

BTW, who stops, PTCL, WAPDA, MCB, State Bank, Railways, KESC, Atomic Energy Commission etc etc to provide their employees with the same kinds facility!!?? All it takes is a dedicated department and there is nothing to lose? or may be they have one functioning already, but our worthy members deliberately turns a blind eye to this fact as they have only joined the forum to malign some particular institution!

Ok.

Now let me give a word about 'that' House which an officer BUY from the military. The size of the house varies with the rank, what a Major gets is lower in value when comapred to what a Colonels would get, that's one thing.

Two, you actually booked house when you were are Lieutenant, may be in 80s. You would get that house in 2005 (when you retire after 25 years) now guess what that house has grown its price X times as any other house or plot would do in Pakistan depending on its location etc. BTW, i forgot to mention that actually the Army kept your money for 25 years and made alot more money with it and you know how.

Now it is this house that pinches, bothers, give sleepless nights and hard time to many fellow Pakistanis.

To clear off the remaining dust i would like to add that 'this' house is similar to ANY other house that a CIVILIAN would make or buy outside the military! It has the same value (or may be more because of the excellent quality standards that AHS has displayed and the perfect maintenance available there). It soars in price in the same proportion as any other house outside a cantonment does.

Now if that house sells for 7-11 million (maximum limit as of today rather when the plots were at the highest prices a few years back) rupees in the end i.e. after 10-25 years of it construction that Armed Forces' Officer sure do have enough money to feed his generations, isn't it!?

Now a Question; can anyone name me a person who was doing a government job as a gazetted 17 grade officer (not a rickshaw driver, sweeper, peon, chowkidar etc) or for that matter any other individual who was earning approximately that same amount of salary as an Army officer of his service does, who has not been able to buy atleast ONE house in his 25 years of service in the civilian sector? If he has not then i must say he has poor financial management skills, and has not love for his children! As he has wasted his life for nothing. BTW, i have yet to see a civilian who fits in the above mentioned criteria and has not been able to do what i said above. i have colleagues, friends, class fellows, relatives in banks, private enterprises, local private companies, civil gazetted officer etc etc and i have yet to see if anyone of them has failed to achieve what an Army officer does with the same service and pay. Rather ALL of then had managed to 'make' more than what an Army officer had.

Now to clear of the last spots of dust (if any), lets talk about the Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals. Armed Forces has a policy. AFs gives plots to their men (officer and JCOs/NCOs) on the basis of their achievements and service. Not EVERYONE gets another plot other than the house which we already have discussed. There are many limits.

Service limits, like to qualify for the second plot you may have to complete a minimum of 27 years of service, so if you have retired earlier, you can say bye bye to the plot.

Second, again these plots are NOT FREE OF COST or CHARITY. We pay for it! Now again everyone doesnt get the 'honor' to pay for this second plot. Everything works as if in the civilian sector except that we are more efficient and transparent. When some plots are available, the criteria is announced i.e. Minimum of 29 years of service, not already has more than one house/plot booked, must not have a problem in his documents etc etc. Now all the officers who volunteer for the plot (mind it not all does as they cant afford to pay for the plot) would have to face the BALLOT (as in any civilian plots selling enterprise) Ofcousre we dont do the balloting on weekend nights with all present, it is done at higher levels automatically and is 101% transparent, none has so far raised any concern about it. Normally 1000s of officers. JCOs/NCOs are considered for the balloting and only a few 100s get the plots-the lucky ones. There on they pay for the fringing plot as any other civilian would pay for his plot that he won in balloting. Nw is there a problem with this procedure? If yes, you cant do a damn about it!

To make simple, let's assume Webby wants a plot in Behria Town, Neo wants one in DHA, Asim wants one in Eden City (got the name from ads). So here's what they would do; apply through a form (now if they have to stand in line for days to get the form or had to buy it in black, the Army ofcourse is not to be blamed, say thnx to the transparent and efficient civilian system). After submitting the forms they have to wait for the balloting. Let's assume Asim and Neo has their names in the ballot (no offence Webby) so what they would do is that they'll pay the down payment become the owner of that plot, pay the rest of the installment for the rest of their lives and then sell the same plot X times the price on which they got it. That's exactly what the armed forces personnel do.

Now no one stops me or anyone else in Pakistan to purchase a plot or house and same holds guud for the Armed Forces!

Now a General, Admiral and Air Marshal may have more than one plots by virtue of the amount of service they are putting on. This again is a way to keep the officers working even if they are superseded (not promoted) as the Armed Forces dont want to let a trained soldier retire just because he didnt get promoted!

N.B. How much would a Civilian Officer (executive appointments-not the bechara tangawla or rickshay wala) had earn in terms of pay, plots, cars, bank balance etc etc when compared to an Armed Forces officer (retired after he reached the executive appointments/ranks of the military)??

P.S i was able to apply for the Housing Scheme when i was a Captain (6 years of service) as i couldn't muster Rs 50K for the down fringing payment even after 6 years of my service! Though most of the officers get the membership of housing scheme as early as being Second Lieutenants. The Armed Forces now pay us a handsome amount of pay and allowances! We live a respectable life and are very very very contended about it, though by the end of month nothing much is left, atleast in my pocket!

 

[Xeric]

Dude the plots are not free.You have to pay for them in installments.My grandfather who retired as a Colonel was also offered plot when he was a Major but he declined the offer (had to feed 6 children so he did not have money to spare on Installments )and he worked for some company for 10 years after retirement (13,000 Rs month Salary) to run his house.It's not like all Army officers are ultra rich as you describe.The only rich people in Army are Generals.

Thnx for testifying!
They think we get then Free of Cost!

 

[Xeric]

And Scholars cannot be soldiers? Soldiers cannot scholars? Pakistan's military forces are changing because of the profound technical and industrial requirements of these forces and indeed if Pakistani forces are to successfully negotiate this transition, soldier scholars is exactly what they need.

Is it by any chance that you have been a student of extremism? i mean why do you have to take everything in totality and in an absolute manner?

i wanted to convey that the selectors in the military knows what material they need, the threshold is clear and they dont select dumbs if you got that feeling, but ofcourse had Abdus Salam been in the military then the Nobel Prize would have been a dream. What i wanted to say was that as a normal practice the 'extra-ordinary' humans are not selected-we leave them for what they can do best outside the military, aiding in building a better Pakistan in their own capacity, well if this means to you that we select thick heads, then that is not the case bro!

 

[jalip]

sir what i think that armed forces retired officers should be payed lum sum amount a substantial amount so that they can get any thing from open market and army dont have to do all this stuff they should put their energy some where else
In a third world country like pakistan with 180 million pop the class system does not look nice and its not good for the image
Boss keep one thing in mind Army ruled this poor country for 30 odd years they will have to take some responsibility you talked about long march on csd episode i will have chat with you on next long march in future

 

[jalip]

deleted unrelated

 

[Xeric]

sir what i think that armed forces retired officers should be payed lump sum amount a substantial amount so that they can get any thing from open market and army dont have to do all this stuff they should put their energy some where else
In a third world country like pakistan with 180 million pop the class system does not look nice and its not good for the image
Boss keep one thing in mind Army ruled this poor country for 30 odd years they will have to take some responsibility you talked about long march on csd episode i will have chat with you on next long march in future

Jalip dear in Army they taught us that there is no limit of human endurance. A man can do what ever it wants and how he wants. Though it just take something more then determination and motivation. If you think that Army should give lump sum amount to their men, i dont see anything bad in it, but i also dont see anything bad in the current procedure.

i again would like to emphasize that incentives in the military are the most 'holy', they are not given in charity. If every officer is supposed to get an XYZ amount by the end of the day who would work then? if you know that you are going to score 90% in your exams would you study, if a General Manager know that he is going to get a pay raise without providing hefty profit to the coimpnay would he even come to the office? No he would not.

Army or for that matter other forces are equally competitive as other institutions, there are guud people and not guud people. But luckily the percentage of not gud people is minute! These plots, secondments, course abroad are just incentives, though they serve the purpose of the Army to get their men trained but again it gives then monetary benefits and important of all an experience of a life time. The Police Officers go abroad, our students go abroad, and many others also. There are difference in the manner people are incentivised. some get bonuses others plot (if you want to take it in that way) and the remaining just end up getting a pat (guud shabash larkay accha kam kiya hai..lolz).

Outside the Army the incentives may be just 'handed over', but you missed the point that in the military even these incentives are to be 'earned'. Now let me explain this:

My brother works in a Multi-national company, on every eid he brings home a bonus of Rs 70000-80000!! wow, i dont get that. My father is a govt employee and not regularly but whenever the company made a profit the incentives came down in terms of bonuses. the reason they give it of Eids, as according to them it is an occasion of happiness and they understand that during the Eid days the expenses mostly go out of control, so they compensate you through a bonus. Do you think that on Eid we the militarymen dont have an increased need of money? It is very normnak that the expenses rises during such occasions but no one has given us bonuses. We manage the same occasion in the same old monthly pay, but we dont cribb.

Well i was talking about the comparison between giving over the incentives just like that (in civil;ian sector) and 'earning' of incentives in the military sector. Example: You worked hard day and night, ate less, slept less and in the end your company made a huge profit, they hand over the 'incentive' to you. We in the military worked hard, did are part best, risked our lives, worked hard and studied like hell during local courses, slept and ate less, and when the time came to incentivise us, they send you for a UN mission in Somalia!! or Congo! You stay there for a year, away from your families, kids and wife, fight with the problems (lawlessness, insurgents etc etc) stay in a battle like condition and if you make it back alive you are paid guud. Now that is the difference. Got it?

Now as for your concern of lump sum amount. Tell me would a Mobilink or Citibank like to lose a manager over night? he might have spend a guud amount time in that company or may not, he may be just a new comer i.e the company MIGHT not have spend much on the ;grooming' and training of that guy, but on the contrary the military train its men from scratch! It spend money on them when they for various course and training exercise with Pakistan, so now an oficers who has the option to retire, if takes an early retirement meaning thereby that a guy who has spend a guud amount of 20 years in the army and the effort that the military has put in ti bring him to this level would all go in vain. So in order to make him stay you 'incentivise' him, now this wouldnt happen through the fringing plots as there are other ways. Ofcourse we dont raise their pay scales or give them cars to make them stay but we do what we do best. i remember a guy, smart guy, joined a bank, worked there in the executive branch, made some excellent decisions and got alot and lot of money to the bank's credit, after a few years he said hey Bank, i am leaving, and the bank was pissed off as they losing a very efficient oficer. The bank knew what he was asking for, a large pay raise, a promotion and another car!! Guess what he did this thrice to that Mr Bank and the last time i met him 5 years back he was the youngest VP of that fringing Bank!! And his colleagues in other banks were still Grade-2 or may be Grade-2 Officers! We cant and dont do it, as we cant. We dont raise pays, give cars and promotions to make people stay. Yes we have other logical ways to do the same, so your lump sum proposal goes down the drain.
Savvy?

 

[MastanKhan]

I wants to start this thread regarding pakistani top brains joining the armed forces instead of other fields is this the case is it good or bad ?

Hi,

Seems like a thread, very poorly started by the poster, without any personal input or references. It would have been better if you would have put your thoughts into the post and gave reasons behind your approach.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Why so rough on the guy? he raises a valid point. What else is there for skilled Pakistani youngsters to look forward to, except military or defence organizations? Very little, indeed. Well, ofcourse, there is telecommunication and some software engineering, which is what every tom, dick and harry ends up doing. But I hardly see anyone growing up saying "I want to be a telecom engineer or programmer".

But, this topic has been discussed before, with detailed discussion of the "Brain Drain" in Pakistan. Opening too many threads has become a bit of a game here. Look at me, since I joined in January, I've only opened maybe 5 new threads total in some 500+ total posts. And guess what, I've never gotten in trouble with any of the mods.

I really dont agree with you over here, some of my friends who are senior to me and graduated before me are working in the private sector right now and making loads of money. Personally not even a single friend of mine actually went and worked in the defence industry. They were more interested in making money so they sticked to the private sector and it definitely has paid off in dividends.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Well this is new.

First, i would like to clear that the Army need soldiers not scholars. So it is VERY normal that 'brains' are not selected during ISSB. There have been many guys who i am sure were brainies, but they were rejected in ISSB, and later i found out that they were not selected as Army felt that they can work for Pakistan in a better way of they DONT join the military for the obvious reasons.

Military need a specific standards of intellect, if you are HIGHER or lower then that, you'll not make it into the Armed Forces.

Second, what to you mean by that there is no place for our youngsters in the cvilian sector? How many guys out of your class actually joined the military? May be one or 2 at the most, where did the remaining go? Got absorbed in the civ sector. There is lot of opportunities in the civ sector, BUT, only and only if you are among the BEST. With a C grade in MSc even if someone would o tripple MSc, he is not getting a guud job. A simple example: there are doctors who earn 1000s a day (even their fee is like 1000 each visit) and there are doctors who dont even mange to get a job ib Civil Hospital! The reasons is of The Guud, the Bad and Ugly!!

Lastly, since when Arrned Forces has been favored due to the salary scales?

Mr Xeric
This assessment of yours is short sighted and historic at best.
I have had a chance to see the army / air force and the navy work
and to be honest they were real short of impressive.

When you talk of a professional military force, doing it's job efficiently then dear sir you need scholars to achieve that.

Take a look at history, all the generals who have earned a placed there were those who defeated your hypothesis. These were generals who could think out of the box and devise solutions both of which are scholarly attributes.

If you still feel otherwise I invite you to come up with scenarios and facts and I will be happy to contest you.

 

[Kasrkin]

I think xeric's explanation was a little simplistic. From what I've seen of the ISSB, bright, quick and fresh minds are needed. The obstacles, the in-door planning assignment, the interviews all require capable brains. Not only do you need to be quick at maths, but you need to remember stuff i.e. how long is the Durand, what is the name of Germany’s Chancellor, who was the 3rd Army chief, etc.

What xeric might have wanted to say is that there is a difference between those who are intelligent and those who think they are intelligent. A lot of people come who think they can take the army by storm. Who have political views or preferences and are stupid enough to express them. Now these people almost always get cut out, and 90% of the time they’re not fit for the army life. A person may have all the intelligence in the world, but if because of his intelligence he thinks he is too good for the army, then the army doubt certainly avoid his sort. Because they feel its more trouble than its worth. The army does take kids with good and fresh minds that encourage, instead of discourage, hard work; minds unsullied by self-aggrandizement or very high standards.

So in a way he is right, some people don’t make the mark because of their supposed intellect. But trust me, sharp and perceptive minds are definitely very important if you wish to join up. Grades also go a long way in officer selection, from what I’ve heard.

I hope that cleared things up.

 

[Sinnerman108]

I will suggest and encourage the readers to research on operational efficiency models.
and compare the same with those followed at home.



If we can do that, maybe we can engage in a discussion for betterment.