Pakistan to buy the Emirati Mirage 2000-9 fighter jets in favor of Pakistan Air Force (PAF)

[Gryphon]

The Tactical Report article is dated Jan 2017, already discussed to death on PDF.

UAE Mirages are not on offer to anyone at the moment.

 

[ARMalik]

For strike and attack roles the ROSE platform has been geared up to do what is required. This makes M2ks redundant in this regard.

You are correct mate, however, these PAF mirages are becoming more difficult to maintain as the spare parts are gone. PAF has done a good job of buying these Mirages from other nations and then cannibalise them for spares. Hence if Mirage-2000s are obtained, it will be a huge help for PAF.

Can it be a fall-out from the recent Indo-Israeli JV??? Looks like some other third-party folks might have got quite rattled due to that misadventure....

Good point mate - the Sheikhs are looking very nervous these days. I also think that there are deep rooted military relationship between Pak and UAE which a lot of common folks like us do not fully comprehend. Hence, I would not be surprised if via some back channels this purchase if being organised.

 

[Thorough Pro]

People who are nay saying here have no clue how serious the risk of war is and have no idea what capability they will bring. We still used Mirage3/5 very successfully for strikes and they ask what M2000-9 brings?

People keep forgetting we need to replace our mirage 3 and 5 models and uae mirage 2000-9 are beasts

Block 3 is three years away, war is just around the corner if you can smell the flames

Hogwash rehashed. Every six months or so there pops a mirage 2000-9 thread for some reason. There is no need. The jf-17 is the order of the day and thats it. The blk3 is half a generation more advanced than 2000-9 at the least.

 

[jupiter2007]

The Tactical Report article is dated Jan 2017, already discussed to death on PDF.

UAE Mirages are not on offer to anyone at the moment.

Even if they are not being offered, Pakistan has a large number of Aircrafts which need to be replaced by or before 2025. We can increase JF-17 block 2 production until block 3 is ready. We all know that block 3 won’t go into limited production until late 2021 or early 2022. So PAF has no choice but to go for other options. F-16s if offered? J-10C? J-16?

 

[Aasimkhan]

Hi,

Young man---the Mirage 3 and Mirage 5 are VINTAGE---.

So ?
You mean we should buy more vintage fighters? Or are you mocking our already existing inventory ?

 

[FuturePAF]

If the PAF even procured these planes, they would have to serve for at least another 20 years to be worth it. In that time, what would be the plan to keep them competitive with the IAF Rafales for example? Could Pakistan upgrade them with non-French components; especially the Radar and Internal EW suite.

These Planes would have to be procured with their entire support infrastructure, at a reasonably low price or "friendship price" to be worth it. The deciding factor maybe the urgent need to replace the many squadrons of Mirages and F-7s in the PAF inventory soon. We really need to retire our Mirage 3 nd Mirage 5 fleets.

 

[Zee-shaun]

Not going to happen as France won't okay the sale. They refused to deliver EW suit for the JFT earlier, what makes you think that they will agree to sell the m2k9 this time??

Even if by some miracle we get those mirages, France is charging the IAF $30+ million for mlu per unit. Do we have that kind if money to spend without puting the JFT block 3 in jeoperdy?

 

[Aasimkhan]

People who are nay saying here have no clue how serious the risk of war is and have no idea what capability they will bring. We still used Mirage3/5 very successfully for strikes and they ask what M2000-9 brings?




Block 3 is three years away, war is just around the corner if you can smell the flames

You speak like a novice. Dont you know it takes minimum 5 years to absorb a new technology? If war is really around the corner then these aircraft are useless. Focus on more and more JF17 block3 and block2 and if you can get then get some f16s. Dont create a graveyard of obsolete technologies in PAF. You need a complete logistic chain to maintain an aircraft. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Thorough Pro]

There is nothing new in M2000/9 that will take PAF 5 years to master. M3/M5 drivers will master them within 6 months.

You speak like a novice. Dont you know it takes minimum 5 years to absorb a new technology? If war is really around the corner then these aircraft are useless. Focus on more and more JF17 block3 and block2 and if you can get then get some f16s. Dont create a graveyard of obsolete technologies in PAF. You need a complete logistic chain to maintain an aircraft. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Aasimkhan]

You are correct mate, however, these PAF mirages are becoming more difficult to maintain as the spare parts are gone. PAF has done a good job of buying these Mirages from other nations and then cannibalise them for spares. Hence if Mirage-2000s are obtained, it will be a huge help for PAF.



Good point mate - the Sheikhs are looking very nervous these days. I also think that there are deep rooted military relationship between Pak and UAE which a lot of common folks like us do not fully comprehend. Hence, I would not be surprised if via some back channels this purchase if being organised.

R u nuts ? Do you know what is a HUGE HELP FOR PAF ? can you please elaborate and quantify this HUGE ?
and you claim of DEEP ROOTED RELATIONSHIP is that these sheikhs just awarded UAEs biggest award to Modi.
Wake up, open your eyes and come out of your delusions.

There is nothing new in M2000/9 that will take PAF 5 years to master. M3/M5 drivers will master them within 6 months.

You cannot send these birds to battle field without upgradations. it will be a bloodbath otherwise.
Even if you master within 6 months (as per your statement, which will be a miracle) who will provide logistics ?

 

[GriffinsRule]

I am a proponent of getting the Mirage 2000 from both UAE and Qatar, if they are selling and will put my reasoning behind that in a few bullet points.

1. First, to clear misconceptions of people here about the jet, the Mirage 2000-5/9s are on par with the Block 52 F-16s and in fact offer more capabilities in your consider that they can carry cruise missiles (Black Shaheen for ex) as well as ASM in the form of Exocet. Both these capabilities are missing from our Falcons.

2. There is almost no comparison between any legacy Mirage 3/5 variant of the 1960s era, regardless of how much you think you can upgrade them (with 1990s tech), with the fly-by-wire truly multirole Mirage 2000. The -9 variant has a lot of sub-systems taken from the Rafale as well.

3. If PAF was to acquire any Mirage 2000s, France would certainly be more than happy to help set up maintenance facilities at PAC Kamra, at a cost of course (we didn't get the MRF for free either and France still helps with that factory when required). What we also need to realize is how badly Pakistan needs to sustain and maintain a trained workforce, that is not just sitting idle.

The PAC Kamra complex is huge and employs a lot of skilled workers in 3 large factories. The largest being the Mirage Rebuild Factory, but also the F-7 Rebuild Factory as well as the new manufacturing line for JF-17 (Im guessing taking the space where the old F-6/A-5s used to be overhauled). The F-7 are an ever shrinking fighter in PAF and it is quite possible that, bar one more rebuild for the PGs, they will not retained for long despite being fairly new due to how quickly technology is advancing in air warfare and losing pilots (worth more than the price of jets) is just not an option.

In keeping with that view, it would make sense to retool and reorient our MRF factory towards the maintenance and upkeep of the newer Mirage 2000s, an investment that would bear fruit for the next 30+ years (Mirages have very long structural life due to their design and build). If we were to go down this path, there is even a possibility that we could acquire more Mirages in the future, even to replace the oldest F-16s!!

5. Project AZM is still over 15-20 years from fruition, and the sole JF-17 line is not enough in capacity to keep Kamra humming and upon the retirement of Mirages and F-7s, we would need to have a plan B.

6. The childlike argument often presented here and on other forums, which goes something like, "India is buying billions of $$ of Rafales, so France will never sell us anything to keep their Indian pappu/bandars happy", has no grounds in reality. France, Russia, America, UK, ... basically any major weapon manufacturing country will gladly supply and has supplied weapons to both sides of a conflict, including Pakistan and India even now, and will continue to do so for as long as we keep buying. India has almost zero clout, in reality with any of these supplier countries because they are actually not in any position to demand anything. The fact is, they are totally dependent on these countries to meet their defense needs and can not afford to piss-off, threaten or boycott any of them. For eg, the most likely winner for MMCRA 3.0 is still Rafale, and France selling us X, Y or Z does not change their chances for selling to Indians AT ALL because Indians in reality have no other choice.

They would not even get Russia, whom they have been licking the feet of for 5 decades, to stop supplying us RD-93s (just one example).

7. A point to ponder ... IAF has only ~48 Mirage 2000 (currently only some have been upgraded). That is out of 700+ fighter jets of all sorts, not including the 45 Mig-29s with their Navy. Yet for every strike, be it in Kargil, Balakot or even interception when PAF stuck back, Mirage 2000s have been on their forefront. Even if you take out the Mig-21s from their fleet, Mirages only make up 9% of their jets and yet the IAF trust that aircraft more than any Mig, Jaguar, or Su variant they have. It shows you how good this platform really is. India in fact also bought a few two-seater variants as attrition replacement from France last year.

8. Finally, this is a very important point, and if for nothing else, we need to consider buying the Mirages if only to keep these really potent aircraft from being acquired by India. Last time, a decade ago or so, when Qatar had floated their's for sale, Indians wanted to buy them as well, but being the cheap asses they are, they lowballed the Qataris who balked at them and decided to delay their Rafale purchase. Now that has changed, and PAF should push very hard to acquire these birds, which given our relationship with Qatar, should not be a diplomatic challenge, no matter how much the Indians cry and bemoan. Don't expect to pay nothing or close to nothing for these fighters ... but pay something reasonable and these Muslim countries would be more than happy to help PAF retain its cutting edge. Also, start paying your taxes and these jets won't seem so expensive at all for a country of 200MM people!

9. This is a silly point, but for all the F-16 haters, they can rejoice as we would get an aircraft just as capable in the inventory, while keeping a diverse fleet. No smart country would put all their eggs in one basket (Chinese in this case for the J-10 fans).

 

[Thorough Pro]

Off course PAF is so stupid to not consider the logistics, maintenance and spares. Thank you for opening their eyes.

R u nuts ? Do you know what is a HUGE HELP FOR PAF ? can you please elaborate and quantify this HUGE ?
and you claim of DEEP ROOTED RELATIONSHIP is that these sheikhs just awarded UAEs biggest award to Modi.
Wake up, open your eyes and come out of your delusions.


You cannot send these birds to battle field without upgradations. it will be a bloodbath otherwise.
Even if you master within 6 months (as per your statement, which will be a miracle) who will provide logistics ?

 

[Aasimkhan]

Off course PAF is so stupid to not consider the logistics, maintenance and spares. Thank you for opening their eyes.

i was trying to open your eyes, not those of PAF.

I am a proponent of getting the Mirage 2000 from both UAE and Qatar, if they are selling and will put my reasoning behind that in a few bullet points.

1. First, to clear misconceptions of people here about the jet, the Mirage 2000-5/9s are on par with the Block 52 F-16s and in fact offer more capabilities in your consider that they can carry cruise missiles (Black Shaheen for ex) as well as ASM in the form of Exocet. Both these capabilities are missing from our Falcons.

2. There is almost no comparison between any legacy Mirage 3/5 variant of the 1960s era, regardless of how much you think you can upgrade them (with 1990s tech), with the fly-by-wire truly multirole Mirage 2000. The -9 variant has a lot of sub-systems taken from the Rafale as well.

3. If PAF was to acquire any Mirage 2000s, France would certainly be more than happy to help set up maintenance facilities at PAC Kamra, at a cost of course (we didn't get the MRF for free either and France still helps with that factory when required). What we also need to realize is how badly Pakistan needs to sustain and maintain a trained workforce, that is not just sitting idle.

The PAC Kamra complex is huge and employs a lot of skilled workers in 3 large factories. The largest being the Mirage Rebuild Factory, but also the F-7 Rebuild Factory as well as the new manufacturing line for JF-17 (Im guessing taking the space where the old F-6/A-5s used to be overhauled). The F-7 are an ever shrinking fighter in PAF and it is quite possible that, bar one more rebuild for the PGs, they will not retained for long despite being fairly new due to how quickly technology is advancing in air warfare and losing pilots (worth more than the price of jets) is just not an option.

In keeping with that view, it would make sense to retool and reorient our MRF factory towards the maintenance and upkeep of the newer Mirage 2000s, an investment that would bear fruit for the next 30+ years (Mirages have very long structural life due to their design and build). If we were to go down this path, there is even a possibility that we could acquire more Mirages in the future, even to replace the oldest F-16s!!

5. Project AZM is still over 15-20 years from fruition, and the sole JF-17 line is not enough in capacity to keep Kamra humming and upon the retirement of Mirages and F-7s, we would need to have a plan B.

6. The childlike argument often presented here and on other forums, which goes something like, "India is buying billions of $$ of Rafales, so France will never sell us anything to keep their Indian pappu/bandars happy", has no grounds in reality. France, Russia, America, UK, ... basically any major weapon manufacturing country will gladly supply and has supplied weapons to both sides of a conflict, including Pakistan and India even now, and will continue to do so for as long as we keep buying. India has almost zero clout, in reality with any of these supplier countries because they are actually not in any position to demand anything. The fact is, they are totally dependent on these countries to meet their defense needs and can not afford to piss-off, threaten or boycott any of them. For eg, the most likely winner for MMCRA 3.0 is still Rafale, and France selling us X, Y or Z does not change their chances for selling to Indians AT ALL because Indians in reality have no other choice.

They would not even get Russia, whom they have been licking the feet of for 5 decades, to stop supplying us RD-93s (just one example).

7. A point to ponder ... IAF has only ~48 Mirage 2000 (currently only some have been upgraded). That is out of 700+ fighter jets of all sorts, not including the 45 Mig-29s with their Navy. Yet for every strike, be it in Kargil, Balakot or even interception when PAF stuck back, Mirage 2000s have been on their forefront. Even if you take out the Mig-21s from their fleet, Mirages only make up 9% of their jets and yet the IAF trust that aircraft more than any Mig, Jaguar, or Su variant they have. It shows you how good this platform really is. India in fact also bought a few two-seater variants as attrition replacement from France last year.

8. Finally, this is a very important point, and if for nothing else, we need to consider buying the Mirages if only to keep these really potent aircraft from being acquired by India. Last time, a decade ago or so, when Qatar had floated their's for sale, Indians wanted to buy them as well, but being the cheap asses they are, they lowballed the Qataris who balked at them and decided to delay their Rafale purchase. Now that has changed, and PAF should push very hard to acquire these birds, which given our relationship with Qatar, should not be a diplomatic challenge, no matter how much the Indians cry and bemoan. Don't expect to pay nothing or close to nothing for these fighters ... but pay something reasonable and these Muslim countries would be more than happy to help PAF retain its cutting edge. Also, start paying your taxes and these jets won't seem so expensive at all for a country of 200MM people!

9. This is a silly point, but for all the F-16 haters, they can rejoice as we would get an aircraft just as capable in the inventory, while keeping a diverse fleet. No smart country would put all their eggs in one basket (Chinese in this case for the J-10 fans).

Diversity does not mean using aircraft from different countries. Please revisit your definition of diversity.
JF17s Block3 is a much more capable aircraft. Just try to manufacture as many as possible ASAP. Latest chinese stuff is better than obsolete western stuff.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Trying to open my eyes... Thanks but I was already in uniform when you were still in liquid form. LOL

i was trying to open your eyes, not those of PAF.

 

[jupiter2007]

Russia also an option???