Pakistan Spaceport Plans! PSDP 2020-2021 Highlights.

[S A L M A N.]

Is this actually still a problem in Pakistan in 2020?

Hehehe.
I could give you a real life example but I can not for obvious reasons.
The problem is very much there.

 

[Aspen]

Hehehe.
I could give you a real life example but I can not for obvious reasons.
The problem is very much there.

I was being sarcastic but yeah I wish I was joking

Not being able to transfer tech within Pakistan is absolutely one of the most basic tasks that we should be able to do. I struggle to understand how any government can be incompetent enough to not fix something like this.

But it does explain many things such as why Pakistan has:

-No Space Program
-No Cyber Program
-No Drone Program
-No Hypersonic Program
-Weak Missile Program

 

[The Accountant]

Government just build corona facility for rs1 billion and closed it down few weeks later. And here members are crying about Rs5b allocation out of like 7200b budget lol

No wonder Pakistan space program didnt take off.

Are you comparing life of people v/s fancy space program? Suppose if my family member is dying will i compare the life saving medicine with the new model car i want to buy?

Common man get our priorities right. Space program is necessary for development but not at the time when you lack basic education facilties, health facilities, business infrastructure. Focus on developing business so that you have enough tax revenues to finance these advance technologies.

Do the basics first.

 

[FuturePAF]

Estimated Cost of these projects 100 billion and amount allotted is just 5 billion its just peanuts it will take several decades to actually get anything meaningful with this meager spending. I say Private sector should be involved as partners in space Program so more funding could be made available. As i see it GOP alone cant afford a space program.
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Pakistan should partner with the Turkish Space program, allowing them full access to a site on or near the coast. Pakistan is well placed for North South polar launches as the rockets can fly over the ocean. A second Turkish facility in Somalia (near Kismayo) would be good for Geostationary launches, right in the equator. A monitor station for Somali launches could be in Pakistan and vis Versa for Pakistani launches.

In exchange, the Turks would built up the launch and monitoring facilities and share them with Pakistan. Rs. 100 Billion is approx. US $600 Million dollars. No small change, but if Pakistan can organize the right incentives, it doesn’t seem to be a sum the Turks may accept if it means they can launch their spy sats from a safe (physically and politically) location.

They can recoup their investment by offering the two range to African economies such as South Africa and Nigeria, and Pakistan would benefit from the experience.

 

[Aspen]

Pakistan should partner with the Turkish Space program, allowing them full access to a site on or near the coast. Pakistan is well placed for North South polar launches as the rockets can fly over the ocean. A second Turkish facility in Somalia (near Kismayo) would be good for Geostationary launches, right in the equator. A monitor station for Somali launches could be in Pakistan and vis Versa for Pakistani launches.

In exchange, the Turks would built up the launch and monitoring facilities and share them with Pakistan.

It would be partner with Iranian Space Program. They are way ahead of Turkey in space and have launched actual rockets, they know what they are doing.

 

[FuturePAF]

Honestly we should partner with Iranian Space Program. They are way ahead of Turkey in space and have launched actual rockets, they know what they are doing.

Technically yes, but politically it will isolate Pakistan. Better to stick with the Turks. Besides, the Turks can source higher tech western components (by which I mean components for satellites), while Pakistan can source what ever components the Iranians have from Chinese suppliers.

Better then the Iranians, the Turks make decent satellites, which would be something Pakistan could collaborate upon.

Pakistan need to run these faculties on a commercial basis, so they can cover their own costs. this is how as many government run business need to be required to do.

 

[Aspen]

Technically yes, but politically it will isolate Pakistan. Better to stick with the Turks. Besides, the Turks can source higher tech western components (by which I mean components for satellites), while Pakistan can source what ever components the Iranians have from Chinese suppliers.

Pakistan need to run these faculties on a commercial basis, so they can cover their own costs.

The gap between Turkey and Iran on space is huge. We are talking a difference of maybe 10-20 years experience. Turkey has not launched any kind of rocket while Iran is experimenting with different types of SLV's.

The problem is not getting high tech components, Pakistan can already do that. The problem is that you need to find somebody who has actual experience with launch vehicle SLV's and knowing what works and what doesn't.

For Pakistan, that means either getting help from either China or Iran.

When you google Iranian rocket, this is what you get

When you google Turkish rocket, this is what you get

 

[JamD]

Is this actually still a problem in Pakistan in 2020?

It is so horrendously compartmentalized that it should be a crime. I can list which organization is absolutely great at doing something and has a great group. But no one collaborates (except hawai batain in meetings/conferences). There's a LOT of tech all spread out in disparate places, if only you could put it all together (and fire 70% of all of the organizations' employees) you would have something amazing. I suppose the establishment of NESCOM was an attempt at this but this was mostly cosmetic.

The gap between Turkey and Iran on space is huge. We are talking a difference of maybe 10-20 years experience. Turkey has not launched any kind of rocket while Iran is experimenting with different types of SLV's.

The problem is not getting high tech components, Pakistan can already do that. The problem is that you need to find somebody who has actual experience with launch vehicle SLV's and knowing what works and what doesn't.

For Pakistan, that means either getting help from either China or Iran.

Here's the thing (and this is not a criticism of you my friend just an observation of how most of us think): We go very quickly down to super specific things that are tangible, like who can help us do this, where can we get the rocket motors. That is NOT the issue. Trust me when I say this we have a lot of inhouse (often redundant) capability and capability to develop. I'm not just saying this out of a sense of misplaced patriotism. We actually do. Where we are let down is that we don't think about the "big picture" and the intangible aspects of this. In particular:

1. What should be the overarching policy framework under which all of this space program should happen? Do you want pvt sector investment? If yes, what are you doing to ensure this? Are you inviting tenders where local companies are favoured? Are you giving tax exemptions? Are you facilitating their clearance? Are you integrating them into supply chains? Just ask them to make simple things like nuts bolts fasteners jigs machines for starters.
   What exactly do you want to do? Launch satellites for commercial reasons for example? At what rate? Define that ability concretely. Is there universal buy-in from all decision makers or will this be cut in next fiscal year? Policies by definition are consistent over many many years.
2. How should the organizations be structured? How are research groups organized. What's their level of autonomy. What's the promotion criteria? Can an employee hope to one day head the organization or will it just be some fauji that knows nothing about the organization? Can employees collaborate with others and outside the organization? Will you stifle anything you don't like in the name of "scorty"(security)?

These are the REAL things we should be discussing (on this forum as well) because these are the things that ACTUALLY affect what happens. What PSDP says about spaceport is garbage paperwork with garbage behind it. Until our decision makers and public ask about these "unsexy" things, we as a nation will continue to be taken for a ride in the name of secrecy and national pride by entrenched interest groups whose interest is feeding off GoP funds to live stable comfortable lives of pointlessness.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It is so horrendously compartmentalized that it should be a crime. I can list which organization is absolutely great at doing something and has a great group. But no one collaborates (except hawai batain in meetings/conferences). There's a LOT of tech all spread out in disparate places, if only you could put it all together (and fire 70% of all of the organizations' employees) you would have something amazing. I suppose the establishment of NESCOM was an attempt at this but this was mostly cosmetic.



Here's the thing (and this is not a criticism of you my friend just an observation of how most of us think): We go very quickly down to super specific things that are tangible, like who can help us do this, where can we get the rocket motors. That is NOT the issue. Trust me when I say this we have a lot of inhouse (often redundant) capability and capability to develop. I'm not just saying this out of a sense of misplaced patriotism. We actually do. Where we are let down is that we don't think about the "big picture" and the intangible aspects of this. In particular:

1. What should be the overarching policy framework under which all of this space program should happen? Do you want pvt sector investment? If yes, what are you doing to ensure this? Are you inviting tenders where local companies are favoured? Are you giving tax exemptions? Are you facilitating their clearance? Are you integrating them into supply chains? Just ask them to make simple things like nuts bolts fasteners jigs machines for starters.
   What exactly do you want to do? Launch satellites for commercial reasons for example? At what rate? Define that ability concretely. Is there universal buy-in from all decision makers or will this be cut in next fiscal year? Policies by definition are consistent over many many years.
2. How should the organizations be structured? How are research groups organized. What's their level of autonomy. What's the promotion criteria? Can an employee hope to one day head the organization or will it just be some fauji that knows nothing about the organization? Can employees collaborate with others and outside the organization? Will you stifle anything you don't like in the name of "scorty"(security)?

These are the REAL things we should be discussing (on this forum as well) because these are the things that ACTUALLY affect what happens. What PSDP says about spaceport is garbage paperwork with garbage behind it. Until our decision makers and public ask about these "unsexy" things, we as a nation will continue to be taken for a ride in the name of secrecy and national pride by entrenched interest groups whose interest is feeding off GoP funds to live stable comfortable lives of pointlessness.

Yep.

Speaking of space, here's how things will play out in reality, sadly.

We'll know Pakistan can design, develop and manufacture its own satellite if the engineers/STEM folks were given reins and the private sector roped in. But our generals lack vision of that scale, so they'll set everyone involved in the chain up for failure, e.g., siloed departments/no inter-op, no incentives to the private sector, and, ultimately, continued persistence to let the Chinese/Turks into the equation.

The generals will "tolerate" the sad state of affairs (they didn't originally want to fix), and eventually, order the military-grade ISR and SATCOM satellites they need from China.

Don't get me wrong. If they had executed the in-house program well, then in all likelihood, a lot of critical inputs will still come from abroad. You can look at Turkey's in-house satellite as an example (e.g., the X-band terminals come from Canada).

But the bulk of the work will happen in Pakistan, it'll lead to a huge boost in domestic R&D, talent and IP generation, and we'll get a tangible understanding of what it'll take to develop some of the critical inputs. You need to replace satellites every 8-10 years or so, hence with every generation, the % of local content will increase.

Turkey is ready to go there, but we are not. The vested interests will use "scorty" to guard their commission farms, ill-gotten posts/authority, etc to stop "civilian" actors (the STEM community, private sector, etc) from taking the lead.

Like the feudals, our military has developed a tribal "us/them" mentality, and while that had started out with a distrust of others, it's now translated into competing for resources, cutting down others, etc.

 

[JamD]

Yep.

Speaking of space, here's how things will play out in reality, sadly.

We'll know Pakistan can design, develop and manufacture its own satellite if the engineers/STEM folks were given reins and the private sector roped in. But our generals lack vision of that scale, so they'll set everyone involved in the chain up for failure, e.g., siloed departments/no inter-op, no incentives to the private sector, and, ultimately, continued persistence to let the Chinese/Turks into the equation.

The generals will "tolerate" the sad state of affairs (they didn't originally want to fix), and eventually, order the military-grade ISR and SATCOM satellites they need from China.

Don't get me wrong. If they had executed the in-house program well, then in all likelihood, a lot of critical inputs will still come from abroad. You can look at Turkey's in-house satellite as an example (e.g., the X-band terminals come from Canada).

But the bulk of the work will happen in Pakistan, it'll lead to a huge boost in domestic R&D, talent and IP generation, and we'll get a tangible understanding of what it'll take to develop some of the critical inputs. You need to replace satellites every 8-10 years or so, hence with every generation, the % of local content will increase.

Turkey is ready to go there, but we are not. The vested interests will use "scorty" to guard their commission farms, ill-gotten posts/authority, etc to stop "civilian" actors (the STEM community, private sector, etc) from taking the lead.

Like the feudals, our military has developed a tribal "us/them" mentality, and while that had started out with a distrust of others, it's now translated into competing for resources, cutting down others, etc.

You can gauge the direction of interest of our awam by the numbers of viewers on the "AH-1Z is coming" thread versus this thread (or any other thread that talks about these things).

 

[StormBreaker]

Yep.

Speaking of space, here's how things will play out in reality, sadly.

We'll know Pakistan can design, develop and manufacture its own satellite if the engineers/STEM folks were given reins and the private sector roped in. But our generals lack vision of that scale, so they'll set everyone involved in the chain up for failure, e.g., siloed departments/no inter-op, no incentives to the private sector, and, ultimately, continued persistence to let the Chinese/Turks into the equation.

The generals will "tolerate" the sad state of affairs (they didn't originally want to fix), and eventually, order the military-grade ISR and SATCOM satellites they need from China.

Don't get me wrong. If they had executed the in-house program well, then in all likelihood, a lot of critical inputs will still come from abroad. You can look at Turkey's in-house satellite as an example (e.g., the X-band terminals come from Canada).

But the bulk of the work will happen in Pakistan, it'll lead to a huge boost in domestic R&D, talent and IP generation, and we'll get a tangible understanding of what it'll take to develop some of the critical inputs. You need to replace satellites every 8-10 years or so, hence with every generation, the % of local content will increase.

Turkey is ready to go there, but we are not. The vested interests will use "scorty" to guard their commission farms, ill-gotten posts/authority, etc to stop "civilian" actors (the STEM community, private sector, etc) from taking the lead.

Like the feudals, our military has developed a tribal "us/them" mentality, and while that had started out with a distrust of others, it's now translated into competing for resources, cutting down others, etc.

Your concerns regarding Military leadership thinking are much valid, And Maybe a reality.

But think of it yourself, Dragging in Foreign COMPANIES FROM CHINA OR TURKEY WITH EXPERIENCED WORKFORCE IN THAT DOMAIN instead of investing in local freshly graduated with nill experience and Not impressive History of Local Organizations especially as per the requirements of the era,

Which option seems more practical to you ?
Definitely as the requirements are kinda immediate, You won’t bother local kids and resourceless orgs, Instead invite those that have already done the work for their own countries, To get things on track fast enough,

And even if this fails, Then you custom order your required products for Space Program.

Now tell me, What would you do if you were a General ?

You can gauge the direction of interest of our awam by the numbers of viewers on the "AH-1Z is coming" thread versus this thread (or any other thread that talks about these things).

Just discovered this thread, Thought I was missing out on this excellent convo

The fact that it isn't included in the PSDP allocations means that it is not being funded by the govt through 'official' channels.
However, I have seen some open-source documents mentioning the project. It is mentioned as PakSLV.
This leads me to believe that the basic R&D is going on (read: pushing paper). The problem is that there is such strict compartmentalization in the Pakistani strategic orgs that one organization can not benefit from the skillet/technology of the other. Had this been the case, SUPARCO could have easily utilized NESCOM's experience in structures, propulsion, aerodynamics, etc (considering NESCOM really has that in-house).
We don't know for sure, in any case

I think, The compartmentalization is due to the sensitive information involved.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Your concerns regarding Military leadership thinking are much valid, And Maybe a reality.

But think of it yourself, Dragging in Foreign COMPANIES FROM CHINA OR TURKEY WITH EXPERIENCED WORKFORCE IN THAT DOMAIN instead of investing in local freshly graduated with nill experience and Not impressive History of Local Organizations especially as per the requirements of the era,

Which option seems more practical to you ?
Definitely as the requirements are kinda immediate, You won’t bother local kids and resourceless orgs, Instead invite those that have already done the work for their own countries, To get things on track fast enough,

And even if this fails, Then you custom order your required products for Space Program.

Now tell me, What would you do if you were a General ?

Here's what I'd do:

It's not a question of practicality, but creativity and vision.

Don't think in "either/or" but rather, "and."

So, in this case, you can task the STEM community and private sector to figure out the satellite program. Give them the requirements, delivery time-frame, and cost estimate. Start by awarding a $25 m study. Once we do that, the 'satellite group' will figure the rest out on their own.

Remember, they're staffed with PhDs and businessmen with deep pockets and contacts. They can conduct a local audit to see what Pakistan can do domestically, and what it can't. In fact, if there's no silos and "scorty" red tape, we'll find out that Pakistan can actually do a lot, either right away, or with additional R&D funding.

For the areas that Pakistan can't, this 'satellite group' will talk to Turkey, China, South Africa, Ukraine, USA, etc to find the inputs it actually needs. It might even hire seasoned experts from those countries to help with design.

The 'satellite group' will come back to me with a step-by-step action plan with itemized cost quotes of what it will take to develop and launch those satellites. We then see if we can afford it. If we can, then we give the green light and start releasing the funds for each developmental stage.

Of course, we set-up ironclad safeguards -- e.g., if they fail to meet the deadline, they surrender the contract and pay a penalty fee (we can use Turkey's model as an example). But if we had audited the 'satellite group' plan with a sharp eye, we wouldn't end up in this situation.

Anyways, to develop this satellite, the private sector itself will start building a lot of capacity for R&D and manufacturing. In all likelihood, it will start re-using this capacity to sell specific goods and services to other countries, thereby bringing in ForEx and, in turn, improving the quality and localization.

So, when we start tendering the 2nd generation of satellites, the 'satellite group' will come back with a better design with more local content. Obviously, the 'satellite group' will export even more with each generation, so the ForEx return increases, as does our tax revenue, as do the scope and budgets of our programs.

 

[StormBreaker]

Here's what I'd do:

It's not a question of practicality, but creativity and vision.

Don't think in "either/or" but rather, "and."

So, in this case, you can task the STEM community and private sector to figure out the satellite program. Give them the requirements, delivery time-frame, and cost estimate. Start by awarding a $25 m study. Once we do that, the 'satellite group' will figure the rest out on their own.

Remember, they're staffed with PhDs and businessmen with deep pockets and contacts. They can conduct a local audit to see what Pakistan can do domestically, and what it can't. In fact, if there's no silos and "scorty" red tape, we'll find out that Pakistan can actually do a lot, either right away, or with additional R&D funding.

For the areas that Pakistan can't, this 'satellite group' will talk to Turkey, China, South Africa, Ukraine, USA, etc to find the inputs it actually needs. It might even hire seasoned experts from those countries to help with design.

The 'satellite group' will come back to me with a step-by-step action plan with itemized cost estimates of what it will take to develop and launch those satellites. We then see if we can afford it. If we can, then we give the green light and start releasing the funds for each developmental stage.

Of course, we set-up ironclad safeguards -- e.g., if they fail to meet the deadline, they surrender the contract and pay a penalty fee (we can use Turkey's model as an example). But if we had audited the 'satellite group' plan with a sharp eye, we wouldn't end up in this situation.

Great !!!

I had this in mind but was guessing if you would raise the point or not.

You are indeed a Gem of a Poster Bilal !!!

Having a Dedicated Team for Space program to figure out the timeline and requirements,

Just like Project AZM, Which primarily consists of retired/serving Officers and NCOs or Phds that were involved in Thunder program or PAC, They figure out things, Use their own experience, And wherever required, Will get help from China or elsewhere.

 

[JamD]

Your concerns regarding Military leadership thinking are much valid, And Maybe a reality.

But think of it yourself, Dragging in Foreign COMPANIES FROM CHINA OR TURKEY WITH EXPERIENCED WORKFORCE IN THAT DOMAIN instead of investing in local freshly graduated with nill experience and Not impressive History of Local Organizations especially as per the requirements of the era,

Which option seems more practical to you ?
Definitely as the requirements are kinda immediate, You won’t bother local kids and resourceless orgs, Instead invite those that have already done the work for their own countries, To get things on track fast enough,

And even if this fails, Then you custom order your required products for Space Program.

Now tell me, What would you do if you were a General ?

Some counterarguments:

1. Our STEM community does NOT have NIL experience. Give them some credit. There are some excellent and experienced engineers within our organizations. Yeh Babur Shaheen Raad Shahpar khud nahin bangayay.
2. Our history is checkered BECAUSE our STEM human resource is so badly managed. Not the other way around.
3. Practical: Still promoting local R&D because a) we are not rich like UAE and SaudiArabia that we can buy everything that we fancy, and b) its a daldal that we will keep sinking in the longer we let this continue.
4. You pay a LOT of premium when you buy from others. You pay extra and you are forced into options and choices you don't want. This can often have dangerous consequences for national security.

If I was a general:

1. I would admit I know nothing about R&D.
2. I would order that only lifelong members can head SPD organizations. Fauji or civillian doesn't matter, but has to have served AWC all their life to head AWC.
3. I would ask the "scorty" establishment to ease off and let engineers do their thing. There are aspects of research you guard but you don't go apeshit in guarding everything.
   
4. I would allow engineers to set their own goals on some level and ask engineers at every level to propose things. That is, I will not bark orders down and expect them to be followed.
   
5. I will make a strict policy about nonperforming engineers. If you sit on your butt all day and drink chaye you WILL be fired.
6. I will give out tenders to ONLY local pvt sector companies for things like nuts bolts fasteners chemicals. Gradually more complicated things like small electronics, machines, jigs.
7. I will facilitate security clearances for these pvt sector industries.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Some counterarguments:

1. Our STEM community does NOT have NIL experience. Give them some credit. There are some excellent and experienced engineers within our organizations. Yeh Babur Shaheen Raad Shahpar khud nahin bangayay.
2. Our history is checkered BECAUSE our STEM human resource is so badly managed. Not the other way around.
3. Practical: Still promoting local R&D because a) we are not rich like UAE and SaudiArabia that we can buy everything that we fancy, and b) its a daldal that we will keep sinking in the longer we let this continue.
4. You pay a LOT of premium when you buy from others. You pay extra and you are forced into options and choices you don't want. This can often have dangerous consequences for national security.

If I was a general:

1. I would admit I know nothing about R&D (and ask @Bilal Khan (Quwa) to take charge)
2. I would order that only lifelong members can head SPD organizations. Fauji or civillian doesn't matter, but has to have served AWC all their life to head AWC.
3. I would ask the "scorty" establishment to ease off and let engineers do their thing. There are aspects of research you guard but you don't go apeshit in guarding everything.
   
4. I would allow engineers to set their own goals on some level and ask engineers at every level to propose things. That is, I will not bark orders down and expect them to be followed.
   
5. I will make a strict policy about nonperforming engineers. If you sit on your butt all day and drink chaye you WILL be fired.
6. I will give out tenders to ONLY local pvt sector companies for things like nuts bolts fasteners chemicals. Gradually more complicated things like small electronics, machines, jigs.
7. I will facilitate security clearances for these pvt sector industries.

I made an edit. See bold.