Pakistan should be a Secular State

[truthlover]

We should remove the word Islamic from the Pakistan or we need New name.

Simply call it peoples republic of pakistan

 

[truthlover]

are you sure? I think most of the Muslims are observant ones. One can see it when they look around. Of course you have also confused people who wear religion on their SLEEVES but not in their hearts, and their minds are dirty and corrupt. Ive seen it.


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Man, are you kidding me? Like in ANY country, there will be folks drinking booze - including Muslims. Isnt that between man and God? Isnt Islam about living a life to one's fullest and to please God and fear Him? So people have the option on how to live their life and then face God.

What is a "pure Islamic country"? Is it really Saudi Arabia? Isnt monarchy forbidden in Islam? Why are they run by kings and princes? Have you seen how some of those princes live? They have gold faucets in their airplanes, they drink booze and party like rock-stars in London Paris and Monaco. They have plenty of girls to choose from -- recruiters find the girls for them.

as for mujra parties - yeah the concept is disgusting and it should be banned....I was against the government for giving recognition to those people



We have a film industry?? News to me.

I thought we were just known for our dramas; and those are just consisting of dialogue between aunties uncles and with some storyline in between. I wouldnt know, i dont watch tv.




We have a CHOICE on which banking system to utilize. Islamic banking is HUGE in Pakistan. Every major Islamic bank has offices and branches in Pakistan. Do research.





So? It's part of the culture. Every Islamic country has different cultural mores. Or should we just forget the culture too? Should we forget our language also and speak Classical Arabic?



Muree Brewery is a business owned and run by a Parsi family. It's a family-run business. Who buys their product is a personal thing. Not for public discussion. I saw a documentary about the breweries. You even have Muslim people working there - and they still pray. They dont drink. I dont see a big deal in that. Murree Breweries has won international awards - it brings in money through exports. The business pays taxes to the government and isnt operating underground. You see what those other crooks do - the ones who make booze in their homes and end up killing 30 people in secret parties.

Pakistan is a capitalist country.

And I think when you have 180 million people (a big country) you cant label everyone as Islamist or secularist. People are mixed on their religious or political leanings.

The best path is the middle path. But that's just my opinion. We know why alcohol and other such things are haram in Islam. God gave us a BRAIN to use, to make rational decisions.

Spirituality should come naturally. It shouldnt be shoved down our throats.

Another failed attempt for hiding the facts by writing things which i have never saw and heard before.Keep trolling

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Every country has their share of problems.


But the way Pakistan is being run is certainly very problematic! Pakistan has a lot of different sects of Muslim and an okay amount of minorities. Its easy for groups like the TTP and LEJ to use the laws and ideologies present in Pakistan and start massacring people.

they exploit peoples emotions and they divide the people

thats one of the single biggest threats to Pakistani unity and nation-hood

 

[Kompromat]

Another failed attempt for hiding the facts by writing things which i have never saw and heard before.Keep trolling

Two possibilities.

1: You have no counter arguments.
2: You just want to go skull deep into the sand 'willfully'.

Either of which is just fine with me or Abu.

 

[Dance]

they exploit peoples emotions and they divide the people

thats one of the single biggest threats to Pakistani unity and nation-hood

But people have to start being rational, the concept of live and let live is not present in Pakistan

 

[Kompromat]

But people have to start being rational, the concept of live and let live is not present in Pakistan

Freedom has been achieved - 'Achieving liberty' is a slow/painful/gradual process of sociopolitical evolution.

 

[SQ8]

they exploit peoples emotions and they divide the people

thats one of the single biggest threats to Pakistani unity and nation-hood

The problem right now is, that Pakistan cannot be secular in its law or statecraft because that time passed in 56 with the first constitution. Perhaps secularism is not for us at all and I am of that view. However, neither were the principles of Islamic state implemented since we have tainted religious ideologies running amok(as is VERY visible in this forum). There is no point in going into history and blaming others because they have very cleverly extracted themselves from the situations and removed themselves from any equation that would lead to them if the common denominator is searched for.
At this point, we have to accept that Mohammad Ali Jinnah's idea of Pakistan is dead, bones rusted and gone. What must be looked into is make doing with what we have and how to best improve upon this with a large chuck of our population directly or indirectly in support of murderers and thieves.(Be it glorifying militants or suppressing the rights of others).

But people have to start being rational, the concept of live and let live is not present in Pakistan

You are talking about a nation where people refuse to take accountability for their actions and instead put all blame on god.

 

[Chak Bamu]

This is one of the lame and stupid arguments from the people who never studied the system and ultimately become an expert in government affairs.

Kid I was not born yesterday. I have read about it. But if you wish to discuss Khilafat. You need to open a thread about it.

The Kingship (or absolute monarchy) system is still present in many countries around the world. What about that??

These countries get no respect. When was the last time you heard anything good about Lesotho or Swaziland? None of the Absolute monarchies have anything of value except oil in Arab Monarchies. People go there to earn petrodollars. And that is about it.

Just to make you understand! In Khilafat System a person does'nt just DECLARES himself a Kalifah. It has a proper procedure to bring up the Caliph from Majlis-e-Shooraa.

From whence does Majlis-e-Shooraa come? If it is appointed, then who appoints the members? If it is elected, then what is wrong with democracy? Your ideas do not seem to be well-thought to begin with, and you wish to make me 'understand'?

So this makes it a system of no value ehh?? Western democracy has failed many times too... Better to mark that in your notes too..

Never said that Khilafat is a system of no value. In fact it would be an excellent system for us Muslims. I just do not believe that today's Muslims can accomplish this. I already told you the prescription as I see it. Take it of leave it.

Well, Khilafat actually offers a better transparency, openness, and check & balances as compared to a Secular State democracy.. So vocal supporters in your eyes are actually strong believers!!

I am sorry, you are talking about Rashidun era. It was over within a generation and ended with a political schism, effects of which we still see around us.

There was debate (Mashwara) about major decisions, the first two Khulafa were open to criticism and welcomed difference of opinion. But there really were no checks & balances. Notice Hazrat Umar (R.A.)'s decision to abolish Jaziyah for old people. Or his order to not have a soldier be away from his family for more than four months. Also note Hazrat Abu Bakr (R.A.) over-ruling Sahaba on matter or taking on Munkareen of Zakat in direct military confrontation.

Those were great Sahaba, and still there implementation of Khilafat was replaced by Kingship. For the next 1250 years, Muslims kept facade of Khilafat by applying the title of Khalifah to Kings. I am sorry I do not see how anyone in their right minds can expect such a system to be established without learning anything from the intervening centuries and evolution of political philosophy.

We have Taliban types who wish to call Mullah Umar Ameer-ul-Mumineen. I have no problem in calling him so myself provided he is elected by majority of Muslims (fat chance, that). Also then, we have HuT fanatics making a lot of noise for Khilafat, but offering almost nothing as to how it might actually work. They have their very own Khalifah-in-waiting somewhere. No thanks.

So then where are we? Nowhere yet! But it could be better in a few decades provided most Muslim countries accept democracy as a system, develop institutions, develop a means to manage sectarianism. Once a political culture of Constitutionalism, Transparency, Openness, Tolerance prevails and we see routine changes of government via elections, we can then graduate to evolving structures like EU, etc... An elected luminary at that level could be a Khlifah. Happy?

 

[Chak Bamu]

First of all what i do and what is my background is none of your damn business.

It becomes my 'damn' business when you present your opinions and perception as the state of our nation, without bothering to qualify with phrases such "I think" or "seems to me". To project your opinions as facts is arrogance. Why should anyone suffer it?

1)Until 1956 pakistan was not an islamic republic and in the ayub khans government this confused ideology of nationalism with islam was started.The pakistan which M.A jinnah opted for only existed between 1947-1955.

So you are citing the lack of having a constitution as lack of principle for creation of this country? My grand father worked for Pakistan movement. Why should I accept your opinion as how and what this country was / is / should be? When Muslims voted for Muslim League in 1946, they knew damn well what they were voting for. They decided to 'confuse nationalism with Islam', as you put it. It was not Ayub Khan. It was them who voted for Pakistan!

2)I don,t need to know how many people do drink and involved in sexual activities.

Do I need to quote you word for word and explain how you are contradicting yourself? Did you or did you not make a comment about Alcohol & Sex at Mujra parties as though you were a witness?

I just know one thing that whatever things in mentioned are no where related to islam and in an islamic republic we should never allow such things. Miniorties are quite little and our so called islamic government knows that the company is earning a huge revenue from its muslim pakistani customers but still they let the company operate because they are paying huge taxes(any double standard in an islamic republic)

I happen to be a happy customer of the same company for their non-Alcoholic products, which I bet earn far more for them than their Alcohol business. Go cry a river over supposed hypocrisy. There is a limit to which law can be applied. If SOME people wish to drink, then you just have to accept that. Not a difficult choice. But we can not have Alcohol drinkers tell us that it is OK. It is most definitely NOT OK. And people like you can not use that as an excuse for confusing others.

Whatever you said represents your own mindset and it,s no where close to reality.

That is exactly what I was trying to convey. I or you can not project our opinions as facts. If you can understand this about what I am saying, feel free to apply this logic / rule / proposition to yourself. Thank you.

An islamic republic is no longer an islamic republic where it can,t serve its purpose and creates confused ideology and damage religion.

An Islamic republic just is. It exists not for answering people like you, but it exists for its own sake. It exists as long as people believe in it. Maybe one day people like you can confuse others to the extent that they stop believing in it. Then you would have accomplished your vision. But until that happens, carry on doing whatever it is that you do - just do not try to confuse us with BS.

And the ones in this thread claiming that jinnah didnt know what he wanted should be ashamed.The one who made this country for us didnt know what he wanted but after decades you know better how this country should be?This is a strong proof of people like you who tried to distort history and made pakistan a joke.

Your theatrics stink. How can you impute your BS onto me? Dude I told you, my grand father was a worker of Pakistan movement. I have not just gone through the syllabus, I have actually read a bit besides. Being that I am in my 40s and have been an avid reader since my pre-teen years, I bet I have come across more stuff than you can imagine. I can give you a simple pointer. Pick up a couple of books by Dr. Safdar Mehmood and go through them. He is an accomplished scholar and he never writes anything factual without references.

Do you know about the hyped up lie about our Quaid having commissioned national anthem by Jagan Nath Azad? Dr. Safdar Mehmood proved it BS by actually researching and rubbishing silly notions upon which it was based. Among other things, he gained access to Mr. Ata Rabbani to interview him specifically for this purpose. I hope you know who are the people I am talking about?

Before starting this thread i was aware that this is going to be a very long and never ending topic.I am a proud secular and i believe in what my leader M.A jinnah opted for this country and that modern,well educated and open minded person is a role model for me.
Say this country thousand times an Islamic republic but believe me it is and always will be practically a secular country.I believe making it secular will just help us in getting rid from the religious radicalism in some sects in our society. Other than that i think nothing is going to change too much because we are already doing a lot of unislamic things.

So you are prescribing poison for getting rid of an infection? Radicalism we can handle well enough thank you. We just can not allow likes of you to come in with your act and try to confuse the rest of us. You have just confessed that you are close-minded in this respect. I do not wish to waste time in convincing you. In my experience, there is no use convincing 'prod seculars'. One can present any fact, any reference, any bit of historical truth, the seculars have their mind made up and nothing can come in their way.

I have no problem with what you call 'practical secular'. I am all for it. It is a pragmatic thing to do. But do not for a moment assume that you can aim at our roots.

I did not open this thread for imposing my views on everyone and similarly everyone here is a right to express his opinion.I am ending my discussion here and others can participate and express their freely if they want to.

In fact you have imposed your views from the very start. Just read your opening post again, and also bother to read you subsequent posts.

 

[Armstrong]

I'd vote for a Pluralistic Democratic Pakistan - Neither Secular nor Islamist, where someone as exceptional as Justice Rana Bhagwandas could become the President of Pakistan but at the same time our State Bank would be allowed, as per the mandate it was given by our Quaid, to evolve a system of economics that is inline with the principals of Islam !

I believe in Pluralism, Democracy & Islamic Paradigms (should we wish it) - the crux of every single one of the Quaid's & Iqbal's speeches since they became associated with the Pakistan Movement including his 11th August Speech & the Allama's the Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam.

I do believe that both the advocates of an Islamic State & those of a Secular State assume beyond what the contents of any of what the Quaid & Iqbal said mandated & most of the time, many, define Secularism in a manner that Holly Oakes would probably find woefully inadequate & likewise Islamism in a way that even the Koran wouldn't be able to agree with !

' @Dance @Oscar @Chak Bamu @Aeronaut @Hyperion @Secur @Abu Zolfiqar

 

[Secur]

@Armstrong

Mate , I again see here , how some people * who are usually not so Islamic * want the ' idealistic Islamic state ' with a ' God chosen ruler chosen by God chosen people ' to interfere in each and every aspect of individuals personal/private life ? Why is that ? Where does this obsession with stopping people from one's perception of wrong , arise from and why the interest in implementing them either by hook or crook just like the terrorists do and justify , according to the religion ?

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong

Mate , I again see here , how some people * who are usually not so Islamic * want the ' idealistic Islamic state ' with a ' God chosen ruler chosen by God chosen people ' to interfere in each and every aspect of individuals personal/private life ? Why is that ? Where does this obsession with stopping people from one's perception of wrong , arise from and why the interest in implementing them either by hook or crook just like the terrorists do and justify , according to the religion ?

Belief !

I know a Marxist-Lennist who'd literally pluck his hair out in anger over not seeing the Communist Mazdoor Kissan Party, in Pakistan, getting any votes...anywhere...anytime !

 

[Secur]

Belief !

I know a Marxist-Lennist who'd literally pluck his hair out in anger over not seeing the Communist Mazdoor Kissan Party, in Pakistan, getting any votes...anywhere...anytime !

What belief , would that be , Monsieur ? The same belief has left our country , in this condition .

He's just one and got no influence and power , you are dealing with hordes of religious people who think they are right and everybody's wrong !

 

[Armstrong]

What belief , would that be , Monsieur ? The same belief has left our country , in this condition .

He's just one and got no influence and power , you are dealing with hordes of religious people who think they are right and everybody's wrong !

Unfortunately that is just an 'intensifier', a 'focal point' if you will ! And one that shows her ugly face even in social, political & individual capacities that might not have anything to do with religion; otherwise we wouldn't hear of horrid tales of what goes on here !

A dearth of Pluralism & Rationale Thinking, are the main culprits here ! I often recall what Javed Ahmed Ghamidi once said about this - Yahaan thoriii guuftagu (conversation) ke baad phir guuftagu nahin ho saktiii !

 

[Kompromat]

Belief !

I know a Marxist-Lennist who'd literally pluck his hair out in anger over not seeing the Communist Mazdoor Kissan Party, in Pakistan, getting any votes...anywhere...anytime !

Marxism is dead, send him the funeral card.