Pakistan Sharia Court Approves Test Tube Babies with Conditions

[S.Y.A]

The virgin birth is also possible with ivf today
It is practically doable

still involves donated sperm

 

[Slav Defence]

As for how so in the first question, my opinion is that the miraculous birth of Hazrat issa without a father signifies that his entire gestation was carried out artificially and without any defined donor. There was no marriage or anything of that sort involved yet she was permitted to carry this child of essentially undefined and unclassified parentage to birth.

In all other aspects of the Quran, there is no mention of artificial gestation and the creation of Hazrat Adam is not clarified in terms of natural human life cycle.
As @shah_123 suggests, I am very curious as to how they even came to this judgement using steps 1&2- as 3&4 might be subjective but they cannot ccontradict the Quran

Id ask the same from your second paragraph on how so?

It seems that a bit of research would help you before giving out judgements just, it is part of your title description. Or have you considered research as meaning only accepting ideas that you propose as correct and rejecting everything else under "western" or "kufr"; let's not set a standard of fearing any other opinions just because they contradict with our own.

If you have any further objections on my moral character, raise it up with the admin team rather than openly accusing me or any other member of "western" ideals

I beg your pardon sir. Hazrat Essa(R.A)'s birth was not to be called artificial.The term here, as per my opinion is not correct.Whenever, nature adopts something unique- we call it an evolution.Where as religious clerics call it as "Merical". We can argue here that his birth might be a result of an evolutionary approach but cannot call it as artifical.If we try to align the God's mericle with science, we can conclude that either might be some evolutionary procedures would have lead the breakdown of one X into Y or might be she inherited the inactive Y chromosome which may have become active in later stages: An evolution leading to "Mericle".However, we cannot call it an artificial.
Also, I am interested myself that under what parameters court have drawn such conclusion though I have some idea.Yet still, I am interested if sharia law allows the existence of such banks for research purposes or not?

regards

 

[LeGenD]

I am less on the donor sperm and more on the donor egg, immorality would require adulterous acts

Zinah( nikah outside of the marriage pact- the breaking of the "veil" outside marriage)

A sperm can actually be compensated for using stem cells so there is no longer that compulsion of the donor sperm
It is the donor egg that has potential as that cannot be replicated

The virgin birth is also possible with ivf today
It is practically doable

Also
Unless you meant for me to google a specific ayat on the subject I am not sure what googling will achieve

Virgin birth or parthenogenesis suggests a case of pregnancy without the involvement of mating or a sperm donor (asexual reproduction):

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141219-spectacular-real-virgin-births

 

[Slav Defence]

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141219-spectacular-real-virgin-births

Spectacular- Fantastic! Polar bodies are available in cells during specific meiotic stages and they receive less cytoplasm and some of them even disappears if I am not wrong .They played similar roles as sperms is pretty inspirational stuff

regards

 

[The Accountant]

Wonder what possible basis did they arrive at this issue from Shariat!??

There is NOTHING in Shariat that addresses an issue that is to be tackled with ijma and qiyas

Shariat is literally based on the interpretation of the Quran and its commandments analogies

And if so, the story of Hazrat issa is proof enough that third party donors and ivf is permissible

Although in all fairness that example would leave all less educated or less aware Mullahs or even semi mullah justices perplexed on whether it then implies that Hazrat issa was the son of god anaozubillah

Better to leave the ignorant to their own devices

From where did you drive third party donor in hazrat Issa story ?

 

[SQ8]

Ahem. Regarding your views on Hazrat Isa (Peace be upon him), the Holy Quran has clarified in multiple places about his origin:



Please tell me where the 'third party sperm or ovum' came from for Adam? If it was not available for Adam, it was not available for 'Isa (Peace be upon them). They are a manifestation of Allah's Command, His Power by which he says 'Be', and the thing comes into reality. The birth of Hazrat 'Isa (Peace be upon him) in no way provides a basis for allowing test tube babies.

Nor does it disallow it, or do you suggest that the Quran says anything beyond "kun" that entire stages of zygote to fetus and everything was skipped or not skipped?

From where did you drive third party donor in hazrat Issa story ?

What third party donor? the idea here is artificial birth; how that justifies that artificial fertilization or existence of an artificially created fetus is possible. The donor is our need to create a human based on our capabilities.
Or can we do "kun"?
We cannot even predict the sex of a baby with 100% certainty

Virgin birth or parthenogenesis suggests a case of pregnancy without the involvement of mating or a sperm donor (asexual reproduction):

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141219-spectacular-real-virgin-births

Im not sure how common the phenomenon of virgin birth is within mammals, but it still does show that a non standard donor was needed to get the process started.

Neither of these phenomena reported involved an egg doing anything on its own

I beg your pardon sir. Hazrat Essa(R.A)'s birth was not to be called artificial.The term here, as per my opinion is not correct.Whenever, nature adopts something unique- we call it an evolution.Where as religious clerics call it as "Merical". We can argue here that his birth might be a result of an evolutionary approach but cannot call it as artifical.If we try to align the God's mericle with science, we can conclude that either might be some evolutionary procedures would have lead the breakdown of one X into Y or might be she inherited the inactive Y chromosome which may have become active in later stages: An evolution leading to "Mericle".However, we cannot call it an artificial.
Also, I am interested myself that under what parameters court have drawn such conclusion though I have some idea.Yet still, I am interested if sharia law allows the existence of such banks for research purposes or not?

regards

Anything that is attributed to god is a miracle, the issue has to do with whether the miracle which was still not the standard procedure(hence a miracle) is applicable in its not being the standard procedure, not being a standard reproductive process
Not involving incourse or any mention of the sort; being capable of justifying if non standard births are permissible under most circumstances

The issue lies in the same vein as other matters of common logic and consultation, but I fail to see how it can be haram just on the basis of adultery being forbidden.

The same way many are perplexed on the issue of homeopathic medicnes and their usage of alcohol as a delivery base

still involves donated sperm

Which we do not need as such
But in it as well, does it classify as adultery? The people never met, no sexual relationship was involved

How does one relate the issue of sexual relationships outside marriage to an artificial birth STILL within marriage

Using the four steps defined

It poses a parentage issue of bloodlines -1

It poses a possible dilemma for the father- a greater compulsion from a Islamic PoV than anything else
But in its non standard form, is it still applicable?

How did the courts conclude that part about haram or not is the question

 

[Slav Defence]

Nor does it disallow it, or do you suggest that the Quran says anything beyond "kun" that entire stages of zygote to fetus and everything was skipped or not skipped?


What third party donor? the idea here is artificial birth; how that justifies that artificial fertilization or existence of an artificially created fetus is possible. The donor is our need to create a human based on our capabilities.
Or can we do "kun"?
We cannot even predict the sex of a baby with 100% certainty


Im not sure how common the phenomenon of virgin birth is within mammals, but it still does show that a non standard donor was needed to get the process started.

Neither of these phenomena reported involved an egg doing anything on its own


Anything that is attributed to god is a miracle, the issue has to do with whether the miracle which was still not the standard procedure(hence a miracle) is applicable in its not being the standard procedure, not being a standard reproductive process
Not involving incourse or any mention of the sort; being capable of justifying if non standard births are permissible under most circumstances

The issue lies in the same vein as other matters of common logic and consultation, but I fail to see how it can be haram just on the basis of adultery being forbidden.

The same way many are perplexed on the issue of homeopathic medicnes and their usage of alcohol as a delivery base


Which we do not need as such
But in it as well, does it classify as adultery? The people never met, no sexual relationship was involved

How does one relate the issue of sexual relationships outside marriage to an artificial birth STILL within marriage

Using the four steps defined

It poses a parentage issue of bloodlines -1

It poses a possible dilemma for the father- a greater compulsion from a Islamic PoV than anything else
But in its non standard form, is it still applicable?

How did the courts conclude that part about haram or not is the question

As far as per my understanding, there are couple of reasons due to which fornication is declared haram.To understand that why donors from third party is considered haram by them has to do with why fornication itself is haram.We are aware of various reasons: Avoiding psychological, sociological, scientific and other issues.The outcome of a child being born as a result of fornication is actually an unwanted genetic information from a person who is not related to either of the spouse.That is why nature itself, whether in avians, mammals or other complex forms of life promotes a proper well organized family system along with mating system: to make a successful and strong outcome. Even in mammals such as old world monkeys i.e. apes observe well structured system.You will be amazed to find it out that every group is a tribe, having a leader and having some rules by them such as male monkeys(young offspring) are not allowed even come close to adult, mature "third party" females.Similarly, once female is bonded with male, they remain a pair till they raise their offspring into adults.
Fronication is haram to avoid genetic information from third party and so in this case.Since, the third party person in not related to your spouse, then how on you are letting your spouse's genetic information not only to merge with it- but also letting it to be injected in female body once it turns out to become a success in vitro?
In addition to that, a man is a man.He can always have this psychological issue that this child his not his son or he would anytime accuse his wife or son for not being his child.He can say that tommorrow that this child is not a result of his biological information therefore he can leave whenever he wants and may suggest female to find out the true biological father for nan-nafqa.Also, if a child grows up tomorrow will have eagerness to find out about his real biological father.Do not say it is impossible as, some pathetic males can go that low, ofcourse not at all every male.Hence, new sharia problem will be created that what female will do tommorrow if his true biological father is just a sperm donor and his spouse is not ready at all to keep that child.Should that professional donor will become responsible of naan nafqa of that child- well he is then a biological father of many
I believed that these are those circumstances and remember Rasool Allah(SAW) has warned us to be careful with new inventions and keep our faith align with it.Surely, there is a creator with some definite rules and if I and you are muslims then we have to at all cost bear all points in mind to adopt any new invention.

regards

 

[Darth Vader]

As for how so in the first question, my opinion is that the miraculous birth of Hazrat issa without a father signifies that his entire gestation was carried out artificially and without any defined donor. There was no marriage or anything of that sort involved yet she was permitted to carry this child of essentially undefined and unclassified parentage to birth.

In all other aspects of the Quran, there is no mention of artificial gestation and the creation of Hazrat Adam is not clarified in terms of natural human life cycle.
As @shah_123 suggests, I am very curious as to how they even came to this judgement using steps 1&2- as 3&4 might be subjective but they cannot ccontradict the Quran

Id ask the same from your second paragraph on how so?

It seems that a bit of research would help you before giving out judgements just, it is part of your title description. Or have you considered research as meaning only accepting ideas that you propose as correct and rejecting everything else under "western" or "kufr"; let's not set a standard of fearing any other opinions just because they contradict with our own.

If you have any further objections on my moral character, raise it up with the admin team rather than openly accusing me or any other member of "western" ideals

There is a difference in miracle and artificial
You gave example of Prophet Jesus
If you could just explain what is artificial that will pretty much answer your question
Which is there was no human help needed

There are few other examples too
Adam , eve the camel which came from mountain ( Prophet Salih )

Now coming back to the test tube, i dont get it
For me in old ages the the only way was for men and women to have sex besides her husband which would have made personal and social complications with also medical complications as people didnt knew what kind of diseases donor was carrying and would have affected the marriage as men might lose there trust in there wives or people using this act for zinah as now you see a trend successful women are getting babies while removing husband from the circle and in islam marriage is big part
You cant complete your din without getting married

So coming back to the problem
1 Yes sperms are used but man and women had no connection so no zinah happened
2 Other now donors are tested to make sure there were no gentic or others diseases
3 instead of couples divorcing which itself is a really bad act it helps saves marriages

 

[SQ8]

As far as per my understanding, there are couple of reasons due to which fornication is declared haram.To understand that why donors from third party is considered haram by them has to do with why fornication itself is haram.We are aware of various reasons: Avoiding psychological, sociological, scientific and other issues.The outcome of a child being born as a result of fornication is actually an unwanted genetic information from a person who is not related to either of the spouse.That is why nature itself, whether in avians, mammals or other complex forms of life promotes a proper well organized family system along with mating system: to make a successful and strong outcome. Even in mammals such as old world monkeys i.e. apes observe well structured system.You will be amazed to find it out that every group is tribe, having a leader and having have some rules by them such as male monkeys(young offspring) are not allowed even come close to adult, mature "third party" females.Similarly, once female is bonded with male, they remain a pair till they raise their offspring into adults.
Fronication is haram is to avoid genetic information from third party and so in this case.Since, the third party person in not related to your spouse, then how on you are letting your spouse's genetic information not only to merge with it- but also letting it to be injected in female body once it turns out to become a success in vitro?
In addition to that, a man is a man.He can always have this psychological issue that this child his not his son or he would anytime accuse his wife or son for not being his child.He can say that tommorrow that this child is not a result of his bioogical information therefore he can leave whenever he wants and may suggest female to find out the ture biological father for nan-nafqa.Yes, some pathetic males can go that low, focourse not at all every male.Hence, new sharia problem will be created that what female will do tommorrow if his true biological father is just a sperm donor and his spouse is not ready at all to keep that child.Should that professional donor will become responsible of naan nafqa of that child- well he is then a biological father of many
I believed that these are those circumstances and remember Rasool Allah(SAW) has warned us to be careful with new inventions and keep our faith align with it.Surely, there is a creator with some definite rules and if I and you are muslims then we have to at all cost bear all points in mind to adopt any new invention.

regards

And that is exactly I am proposing that we consider when taking such judgments into consideration.

However, in this case; fornication never occurred at all.. no physical relationship or interaction with the donor. So the issue boils down to the fatherhood clauses and how they would apply in this case.

Yet, even in that case the hurmat has to be clearly defined when we might have a totally unknown donor.

As for technology, unfortunately we have gone from an example set in Islam where it was haram that had to be proven to now where halal has to be proven.
I am a little doubtful where the Prophet warned against technology.He was more wary of cultural practices that become practices that take away from the spirit of Islam. Whether he would be against the cellphone being used to remind us its time for prayer is pretty much an up in the air thing.

The question that it really comes down to, is whether we remain the spirit of being the forefront of knowledge and adaptation of new ideas- or we end up like people who cannot fathom the idea of television and think any canned food is haram .. or end up like baseless so called "reformists" like Tarek fatah.

To me it is impossible to accept any judgement beyond the issues addressed in the Quran and by the prophet himself unless or until I have seen the process and logic it was derived with.

For those less inclined to question whatever the council of islamic ideology or shariat courts or any of the various schools issuing fatwas say- they can accept it.

There is a difference in miracle and artificial
You gave example of Prophet Jesus
If you could just explain what is artificial that will pretty much answer your question
Which is there was no human help needed

There are few other examples too
Adam , eve the camel which came from mountain ( Prophet Salih )

Now coming back to the test tube, i dont get it
For me in old ages the the only way was for men and women to have sex besides her husband which would have made personal and social complications with also medical complications as people didnt knew what kind of diseases donor was carrying and would have affected the marriage as men might lose there trust in there wives or people using this act for zinah as now you see a trend successful women are getting babies while removing husband from the circle and in islam marriage is big part
You cant complete your din without getting married

So coming back to the problem
1 Yes sperms are used but man and women had no connection so no zinah happened
2 Other now donors are tested to make sure there were no gentic or others diseases
3 instead of couples divorcing which itself is a really bad act it helps saves marriages

And hence it complicates and drags the issue into further social areas.
What if the woman has an issue in her womb but another woman can bear the child - a surrogate mother
How does one classify that?
How is that conclusion reached that be
Would it not be prudent to prefer adoption in such cases? If the Prophet can set this example through Hazrat zaid bin haris.

 

[sakha39]

As for how so in the first question, my opinion is that the miraculous birth of Hazrat issa without a father signifies that his entire gestation was carried out artificially and without any defined donor. There was no marriage or anything of that sort involved yet she was permitted to carry this child of essentially undefined and unclassified parentage to birth.

In all other aspects of the Quran, there is no mention of artificial gestation and the creation of Hazrat Adam is not clarified in terms of natural human life cycle.
As @shah_123 suggests, I am very curious as to how they even came to this judgement using steps 1&2- as 3&4 might be subjective but they cannot ccontradict the Quran

Id ask the same from your second paragraph on how so?

It seems that a bit of research would help you before giving out judgements just, it is part of your title description. Or have you considered research as meaning only accepting ideas that you propose as correct and rejecting everything else under "western" or "kufr"; let's not set a standard of fearing any other opinions just because they contradict with our own.

If you have any further objections on my moral character, raise it up with the admin team rather than openly accusing me or any other member of "western" ideals

BHENSA Spotted!

I think there are very few admins here who can be reasoned with and who are pragmatist and above demagoguery. He is one of them.

 

[Aawish]

I was just kidding. Never mind.

 

[The Eagle]

The topic is too sensitive that we cannot conclude without reading the judgment in detail as it says, with conditions.

 

[Darth Vader]

And that is exactly I am proposing that we consider when taking such judgments into consideration.

However, in this case; fornication never occurred at all.. no physical relationship or interaction with the donor. So the issue boils down to the fatherhood clauses and how they would apply in this case.

Yet, even in that case the hurmat has to be clearly defined when we might have a totally unknown donor.

As for technology, unfortunately we have gone from an example set in Islam where it was haram that had to be proven to now where halal has to be proven.
I am a little doubtful where the Prophet warned against technology.He was more wary of cultural practices that become practices that take away from the spirit of Islam. Whether he would be against the cellphone being used to remind us its time for prayer is pretty much an up in the air thing.

The question that it really comes down to, is whether we remain the spirit of being the forefront of knowledge and adaptation of new ideas- or we end up like people who cannot fathom the idea of television and think any canned food is haram .. or end up like baseless so called "reformists" like Tarek fatah.

To me it is impossible to accept any judgement beyond the issues addressed in the Quran and by the prophet himself unless or until I have seen the process and logic it was derived with.

For those less inclined to question whatever the council of islamic ideology or shariat courts or any of the various schools issuing fatwas say- they can accept it.


And hence it complicates and drags the issue into further social areas.
What if the woman has an issue in her womb but another woman can bear the child - a surrogate mother
How does one classify that?
How is that conclusion reached that be
Would it not be prudent to prefer adoption in such cases? If the Prophet can set this example through Hazrat zaid bin haris.

Same thing vice versa majority of these issues are traditional issues rether than religious or people trying to impose tradition on religion

 

[Hell hound]

As @shah_123 suggests, I am very curious as to how they even came to this judgement using steps 1&2- as 3&4 might be subjective but they cannot ccontradict the Quran

i was thinking the same thing if the gametes belong to the married couple.the surrogate is only nurturing the zygote which she was impregnated with artificially and have no genetical link with it. what merits it haram.
no extramarital sexual encounter is there. parentage of the child is know form the beginning so whats the problem here if getting the nutrients from another women is the issue than why the breast feeding from other women is allowed.

 

[abrar khan]

Court said that all third-party assistance for making test tube babies is not allowed in Islam.
wtf

You don't have right to interfere in any ones religious ruling. When you don't have knowledge than keep yourself out of it.