Pakistan Sharia Court Approves Test Tube Babies with Conditions

[I.R.A]

the same reason women agrees to become foster mothers in arab.

The two are very different I believe ............ one has high chances of body harm and pain the other is with very less effort.

 

[Hell hound]

It is similar to why a normal human would sell his kidney?

well i think comparing it to selling one's kidney isn't the right comparison here as you are loosing an organ in the kidney donation but same isn't the case with surrogacy

 

[I.R.A]

well i think comparing it to selling one's kidney isn't the right comparison here as you are loosing an organ in the kidney donation but same isn't the case with surrogacy

The labor involved is more than that of a foster mother. The reference to kidney selling was just to state that its a kind of human exploitation where a human is forced because of his / her financial needs to go through that intense body harm and pain. The condition which forces one to agree to the act

 

[Hell hound]

The two are very different I believe ............ one has high chances of body harm and pain the other is with very less effort.

what are we discussing here are the social problems associated with the practice(which can reduced by regulating it).but from where i stand i don't see any thing unislamic in the process as long as the sperm and egg both belong to the married couple.

 

[LeGenD]

@Oscar

Here is an explanation that every Muslim should read and understand: http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7822

Why Islam encourage Muslims to marry? Try to answer this question first.

 

[I.R.A]

what are we discussing here are the social problems associated with the practice(which can reduced by regulating it).but from where i stand i don't see any thing unislamic in the process as long as the sperm and egg both belong to the married couple.

Dear Islam is about social order, for freedom and respect of humanity. If there is any social problem its against the Islamic law. Individual sins fall under law of requital .............. but at humanity level exploitation of humans against Quranic laws. I asked you why a normal person would agree to be a surrogate?

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

Here is an explanation that every Muslim should read and understand: http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7822

Before I point out the only pertinent true issue which is actually relateable and addressable

Who are the scholars these people cite? What are their credentials?
Who bestowed these credentials on them? What is the reputation of those that bestowed the credentials.

Now
As I pointed out earlier
. "Using the sperm or eggs of a third person would create doubt and confusion with regards to the child’s identity. The child’s lineage and identity will not be preserved and safeguarded."

Is the most important issue by way of Shariat layed down in the Quran especially where we understand clearly that Allah understanda human nature than man ever will.

This issue needs to be addressed the same way alcohol was outlined in the Quran - where alcohol is told to have benefits but its vices far far outweighed its benefits.

As for the article, the first ayah is irrelevant since that is understood and hence only seems to serve a purpose kf trying to reinforce the point via general subservience to Allah rather than the issue

The hadiath quoted next could be used in both for and against arguments. The story of Hazrat Zakaria & Hazrat Hud too is misplaced as it refers to a miracle of being able to bear children with Allah's blessing and greater emphasis on Allah's boundless capacity to answer prayers; It does not state or have any bearing on whether trying to have a child is forbidden by other means.

The part about Zina I have already tried to argue as irrelevant in the absence of the physical relationship and no contact.

So the only real issue left that is actually relatable to Shariat and Fitrat is the ownership of fatherhood and the issue of surrogate.

Therefore, I do not see this site being sufficient to provide evidence for this particular ruling especially when it mentions irrelevant primary sources and most of their write up is no different than my approach based on interpretation.

Unlike them, I am not referring to unknown and generally obscure references to scholars but available common knowledge and whatever feeble capacity I have in understanding the Quran.

 

[Hell hound]

I asked you why a normal person would agree to be a surrogate?

1) to help someone close to you to have their own baby because they can't due to some viral diseases or other medical reasons
2) money

Dear Islam is about social order, for freedom and respect of humanity. If there is any social problem its against the Islamic law.

okay lets assume for a moment that social problems are resolved through extensive regulation and it can't be abused now.(remember we are assuming a perfect world here). now does islam has any reservations with third party surrogacy.

 

[I.R.A]

1) to help someone close to you to have their own baby because they can't due to some viral diseases or other medical reasons
2) money

You don't see the potential problems there? Even if the surrogate mother does it on her free will there still will be problems. Pregnancy does bring a change in a female.

For money ................. that's plain exploitation.

okay lets assume for a moment that social problems are resolved through extensive regulation and it can't be abused now.(remember we are assuming a perfect world here). now does islam has any reservations with third party surrogacy.

In a perfect world, mother would be able to bear her own child.

 

[Slav Defence]

And that is exactly I am proposing that we consider when taking such judgments into consideration.

However, in this case; fornication never occurred at all.. no physical relationship or interaction with the donor. So the issue boils down to the fatherhood clauses and how they would apply in this case.

Yet, even in that case the hurmat has to be clearly defined when we might have a totally unknown donor.

As for technology, unfortunately we have gone from an example set in Islam where it was haram that had to be proven to now where halal has to be proven.
I am a little doubtful where the Prophet warned against technology.He was more wary of cultural practices that become practices that take away from the spirit of Islam. Whether he would be against the cellphone being used to remind us its time for prayer is pretty much an up in the air thing.

The question that it really comes down to, is whether we remain the spirit of being the forefront of knowledge and adaptation of new ideas- or we end up like people who cannot fathom the idea of television and think any canned food is haram .. or end up like baseless so called "reformists" like Tarek fatah.

To me it is impossible to accept any judgement beyond the issues addressed in the Quran and by the prophet himself unless or until I have seen the process and logic it was derived with.

For those less inclined to question whatever the council of islamic ideology or shariat courts or any of the various schools issuing fatwas say- they can accept it.

First of all, test tube technology itself is not prohibited.Only a procedure is prohibited- It is just like I am allowed to earn as much money as I WANT but through hard work.I am prohibited to steal money - This means that not only I can earn as much money as I want but by following legal system and without stealing.
The main objective of prohibiting fornication is not only the social outcome but also the scientific outcome as well.Unfortunately, for woman and especially the new child, circumstances always remain the same.Besides, we are talking about the case of artificial insemination used to collect constituents in vitro and in vivo not the prohibition of test tube technology itself.
Artificial insemination is a technique used to promote fertilization.It has two types:
1)Homogeneous Insemination
2)Heterogeneous Insemination
Out of these two types, only heterogeneous insemination is prohibited since it is giving us the same outcome for which fornication was prohibited i.e. sperm from third party male.The reason is not only socially painful but scientifically it is critical for child as well.The child would be needing many things other than fatherhood or motherhood and only biological male/female parent has capability to provide: Be it a bone marrow or any other biological problem.
Where as homogeneous insemination is not prohibited at all since the source of male genetic information is taken from spouse.

Sir, the issue does not at all boils down.Whether one has committed fornication or not, if the sperm does not belong to one's partner, the child's birth will not be considered acceptable as per law. Sir, when a man that is other than woman's spouse shares his genetic material and it is used than it has a huge impact upon the child that is born either in a well structured society or the illiterate society.

The most beautiful thing about Islam is that it has well structured sharia laws that are simple and applicable in any century .As far as technology is concerned, no one has explained it better than Rasool Allah(SAW) about technology in upcoming times.From headphones, to telecommunications- from TV sets to bars and club dances everything was predicted in hadiths and described by Rasool Allah(SAW).Even in one of the hadith, I was stunned and literally impressed to find out that Rasool Allah(SAW) even mentioned the environment in the dance clubs and even the body language of people which is really fantastic.Not only that, he mentioned raudan, raudan (two lines) for TV set in a hadith and mawaslaat for telecommunication which is still used in urdu today.From major to minor- hence I find this sharia is most perfect and consisting of compatible laws, applicable in any century no matter what comes.
(And Allah(SWT) has best knowledge.

regards

 

[Slav Defence]

but in the case of surrogacy parentage is known, no sex is involved and zygote is just taking its nutrients from host's body(just like in the case of breast feeding from the foster mother ) and has no other link to it genetically speaking.
so what are the problems here from Islamic point of view(ignore the community's point of view here it will change with time as the practice become more common). every thing seems halal

Even surrogate parents are not at all needed in various cases.Sometimes, woman has blockade issues and direct transfer can cause success.
regards

 

[Hell hound]

Even surrogate parents are not at all needed in various cases.Sometimes, woman has blockade issues and direct transfer can cause success.
regards

i know bro most of the time direct transfer is enough to get pregnant . my question was what if due to some medical complications woman can't have a baby without the help of (female)a surrogate i.e inability of her body to support a child for 9 months or some viral diseases which can transfer to baby at birth.
will it not be halal if the couple get the zygote made in lab using only their own genetical material and then transfer it to a third party ( female surrogate) uterus.

i think this type of third party surrogacy should be allowed as the genetical parents of the baby are still the married couple and the third party is only nurturing the child on their behalf

 

[I.R.A]

i think this type of third party surrogacy should be allowed as the genetical parents of the baby are still the married couple and the third party is only nurturing the child on their behalf

What if there are complications and surrogate mother's life is put in danger or worst she dies of those complications?

Buddy it is simple as this you are putting someone else's life in danger for your own personal wish. Any angle you look at it this is exploitation of another human causing bodily harm and pain to another human.

 

[shah_123]

Complete Judgement.
http://www.federalshariatcourt.gov.pk/Leading Judgements/Judgment on Surrogacy.pdf

 

[I.R.A]

Complete Judgement.
http://www.federalshariatcourt.gov.pk/Leading Judgements/Judgment on Surrogacy.pdf

So basically the judgement allows ivf to legally married couple only. i.e. sperm is strictly of the husband and egg is of the wife .............. all other cases are prohibited and punishment suggested with adequate legal provisions to be inserted in relevant laws to prevent exploitation in future.