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Pakistan Sets Eyes on China’s New J-35 Fighter Jet

IMO... I don't think the PAF AHQ was confident about designing AZM alone. I originally felt that designing the jet and using COTS inputs would've been possible, but even then, there are a lot of things we'd need to master first (e.g., flight control tech) before making serious progress in such a project.

Ultimately, the PAF was going to roll AZM into another fighter program, either from China or Turkey. I think the likelier outcome is China, and the one program available for that purpose is the FC-31. But while the two will be related, the FC-31 and J-35 are going to be distinct variants (the latter designed for naval ops, and likely costlier than FC-31 due to the necessary changes).

We should also bear in mind that the PAF wants the new fighter sooner than later. So, the only option that can qualify is the FC-31, since it is the farthest along.

Ideally, we would take on the FC-31, but separately, have a totally in-house combat aircraft program centered on developing flight control tech, composites, electronics, etc. So, while we induct the FC-31, we also build a R&D base to develop something new, like a strike UCAV, loyal wingman drones, EW/ECM decoys, etc.
What are your thoughts if one speculates that "PAC should stop further evolution of Jf17 after Blk3, and instead work on domestic transfer of technology of NG aircraft. This NG aircraft will be evolved to acquire the strike capabilities of future combat, and the aircraft will eventually serve as replacement of Mirages in longer run."
 
And there no design specification currently for AZm whether its canard delta design like J-20 or conventional design like FC-31 or triple surface design like -J-15
and last how would manage/maintain your proposed 2 stealth fighters for Pakistan, so most of the senior members like @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Irfan Baloch that AZM will be modified version of FC-31/-35

Cant speak for others but I can confirm that they are 2 separate programs for the PAF.

Design has not been finalized but PAF is giving a clear direction on where it intends to go (leaning delta-canard or just delta configuration)
 
The above is the full rendering. PAF would be careless to leak such a thing for us fanboys to not even notice :D and still argue about it.
It clearly seen that it is not delta canard design but triple surface design (canard+Wing+ Tail ) and this design is just for a reference and its design is not finalized yet
 
What are your thoughts if one speculates that "PAC should stop further evolution of Jf17 after Blk3, and instead work on domestic transfer of technology of NG aircraft. This NG aircraft will be evolved to acquire the strike capabilities of future combat, and the aircraft will eventually serve as replacement of Mirages in longer run."

This is the route PAF intends to go. Azm 2 engines vs JF-17 1 engine, Total redesign for Azm, etc...

PAF made clear that future jets will be twin engined including the ones domestically produced.

It clearly seen that it is not delta canard design but triple surface design (canard+Wing+ Tail ) and this design is just for a reference and its design is not finalized yet

The su-27/30/33/35 series are triple surface. The Tail is not included in that.
 
Cant speak for others but I can confirm that they are 2 separate programs for the PAF.

Design has not been finalized but PAF is giving a clear direction on where it intends to go (leaning delta-canard or just delta configuration)
What 2 separate programs PAF have for stealth jet can you back up your claims???
and PAF might not go for Canard equipped stealth jet it will increase a chance of detection , but a conventional design
 
WS-19 is still in development, we never know that, there are any plans to install WS-19 on block-3, may be at later stages when WS-19 will be mature, remember bro we tested WS-13 on block-2 in past but never satisfied, we are quite happy with the performance of RD-93

"The aircraft would be initially powered by two nine ton thrust class WS-13E engines (improved Chinese copies of RD-93), and to be later powered by 10-11 ton thrust WS-19 engines in the late 2020s (in a thrust class of F414 or EJ200). The use of interim engines for the carrierborne FC-31 variant will not be dissimilar from the J-20’s use of interim engines prior to receiving intended its WS-15s. However, there have been some indications that the WS-19’s development cycle may be slightly shorter than the WS-15, as it may have benefited from cross applicable research and development originally conducted for the WS-15."
https://thediplomat.com/2019/09/beyond-chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter/

So Russia is not agreeing to provide us with RD33 engines as they want to sell whole aircrafts cause that is economically feasible. The lot China had for RD93 is also finished and Russia is also not providing china with more engines. We have already tested WS13 and didn't like the result. For future now we are left with WS19.Right now 5 units of WS19 are being produced annually and the capacity will be increased. So JF17 Block lll & J35 will have this engine .
 
What 2 separate programs PAF have for stealth jet can you back up your claims???
and PAF might not go for Canard equipped stealth jet it will increase a chance of detection , but a conventional design

FC-31---> Off the shelf purchase. PAF will get its foot into the door with stealth tech.

Azm--> PAF will use its experience with the JF-17 program, FC-31, etc... design/develop its own domestic fighter. Designed fully in Pakistan, tunnel testing of the design to be done in Pak. Avionic input to be provided by China maybe Turkey.

These are the programs PAF fully intends to focus on. Ill take you up on that bet for $100 :D
 
And there no design specification currently for AZm whether its canard delta design like J-20 or conventional design like FC-31 or triple surface design like -J-15
and last how would manage/maintain your proposed 2 stealth fighters for Pakistan, so most of the senior members like @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Irfan Baloch that AZM will be modified version of FC-31/-35

If there is no AZM project than Pakistan should try to make a small civilian plane to develop its design capability among the younger generation engineers. Making a 5 generation fighter will cost around 10 billion dollar for development only, and the government then should spend another billions dollar to buy them in masses. In comparison, small civilian plane just like being built by Indonesia (N219) only cost 80 million dollar for its development with possible sales from cargo and airline companies. Design capability should be nurtured over time. If there is no any single plane being developed by Pakistan after joint development in JF 17 just about 20 years ago, that capability will be loss.
 
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FC-31---> Off the shelf purchase. PAF will get its foot into the door with stealth tech.

Azm--> PAF will use its experience with the JF-17 program, FC-31, etc... design/develop its own domestic fighter. Designed fully in Pakistan, tunnel testing of the design to be done in Pak. Avionic input to be provided by China maybe Turkey.

These are the programs PAF fully intends to focus on. Ill take you up on that bet for $100 :D
Can we have $$$ to buy FC-31/J-35 from China???
 
If there is no AZM project than Pakistan should try to make a small civilian plane to develop its design capability among the younger generation engineers. Making a 5 generation fighter will cost around 10 billion dollar for development only, and the government then should spend another billions dollar to buy them in masses. In comparison, small civilian plane just like being built by Indonesia (N219) only cost 80 million dollar with possible sales for cargo and passenger configuration. Design capability should be nurtured over time. If there is no any single plane being developed by Pakistan after joint development in JF 17 just about 20 years ago, that capability will be loss.

Dont listen to fake news... Project AZM is full speed ahead. Real PAF insiders know.


Can we have $$$ to buy FC-31/J-35 from China???

PAF has enough funds... we have not purchased any jets since the F-16s in 2006. Funds were earmarked over a decade ago for 42 jets... that will be PAFs initial purchase with upto 100 overtime.

75 million x 42 = 3.15 billion

We are spending 6 billion on 8 chinese subs :D
 
So JF17 Block lll & J35 will have this engine .
May be block-3 will have at later stages but remember bro chinese is still far behind from west to design and produce reliable engine (they currently lack experience)
 
"The aircraft would be initially powered by two nine ton thrust class WS-13E engines (improved Chinese copies of RD-93), and to be later powered by 10-11 ton thrust WS-19 engines in the late 2020s (in a thrust class of F414 or EJ200). The use of interim engines for the carrierborne FC-31 variant will not be dissimilar from the J-20’s use of interim engines prior to receiving intended its WS-15s. However, there have been some indications that the WS-19’s development cycle may be slightly shorter than the WS-15, as it may have benefited from cross applicable research and development originally conducted for the WS-15."
https://thediplomat.com/2019/09/beyond-chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter/

So Russia is not agreeing to provide us with RD33 engines as they want to sell whole aircrafts cause that is economically feasible. The lot China had for RD93 is also finished and Russia is also not providing china with more engines. We have already tested WS13 and didn't like the result. For future now we are left with WS19.Right now 5 units of WS19 are being produced annually and the capacity will be increased. So JF17 Block lll & J35 will have this engine .


WS19 Huangshan
If the FC-31 can get a suitable engine, its overall performance will be greatly improved. Judging from the current technical level and public information of China's aviation industry, the current FC-31 "Yingying" is not likely to have super-patrol capability at present. China's second fifth-generation aircraft FC-31 was initially rejected by the Air Force, and a large part of this decision was due to the engine.

Compared with the American F-35, which is also a carrier aircraft, the J-31 thrust with two WS19 turbofans is about 24 tons, while the F35 has only 21 tons thrust. The J-31 has an empty weight of only 14.5 tons and the F35 is as high as 15.7 tons. It is 1.2 tons higher. In terms of combat load, Chinese sources claim the J-31 will be better than the F-35 and will be able to perform more functions than the F-35.

If only equipped with RD-93, the J-31 would have a hard time achieving supersonic cruise, becoming an incomplete fifth-generation machine; equipped with turbofan 19, J31 with a higher thrust-to-weight ratio can easily achieve supersonic cruise. Before Chinese equipment with the J-20, China’s understanding of the gap between the fourth-generation machine and the fifth-generation machine was not very clear; after the J-20, the differences in various aspects began to stand out, and the navy and carrier aviation also demanded the fifth-generation aircraft.

The engine is the core of the fighter. Even if the other performance of the fighter is good, it is no good if there is no good engine. For example, the fifth-generation fighter J-20 is still equipped with the AL-31 engine imported from Russia. However, this engine still can not fully support the full performance of the J-20.

Since the 1950s, turbofan engines have been highly valued by the world's aviation powers. With the development of turbofan engine technology, the United Kingdom, the United States, the former Soviet Union and other countries have developed a high push-to-weight ratio and high performance. Four generations of fighters, and since the mid-1980s, the world's aviation powers have begun to develop a new generation of engines for the fifth generation of fighters. Under this circumstance, the gap between the development of China's aero-engines and developed countries is already very large, and it must be quickly caught up.

At the 2018 Zhuhai Air Show, the big vector engine is not only the one that is equipped on the J-10B, but also a quietly lying on the stand, proclaiming China's second stealth fighter – J-31 will soon have a domestic turubofan engine; this engine is the turbofan 19 Huangshan medium thrust engine that had only appeared in rumors in the past two years. For a double-engine medium-sized fighter, the thrust and fuel consumption of the large thrust engine are too large, wasteful money, and poor cost-effectiveness; the most efficient method is to install two medium-thrust engines, and the WS19 is such an engine. China Aviation Industry Corporation had previously disclosed a vector engine with a maximum thrust of 9800Kgf. This engine is considered by the outside world to be the WS-19 "Huangshan" engine matched with FC-31. This project has produced and successfully completed the development of QC185, QC400, GT25000G military ship-borne turbine shaft blades, WS18, WS19 turbofan engine shaft blade development, 624 AT project drones and other models to attack the mission. In mid-2017, China Aviation Industry Corporation first published an engine model called "Turbofan-19" (WS-19) for a summary of the results of the "Shaft-type blade universal combination tester". Some military observers revealed on the Internet that "TurboFan-19" is a long-rumored new Chinese engine. It is similar to the name of "Taihang" and "Emei", and the name of "TurboFan-19" is "Huangshan". The target of the turbofan-19 is the F414 turbofan engine, which is larger than the European EJ200 engine in terms of maximum thrust.

Before the turbofan-19 model was confirmed, the detailed report on China's new medium-thrust turbofan engine was only the "S3-2 type technical verification machine" project. The S3-2 type technical verification machine was a double rotor and afterburner. The turbofan engine with vector nozzle has a maximum state thrust of 9800kgf, and the thrust-to-weight ratio is 9th. The goal is to obtain the national project after the verification technology is up to standard, and become an important member of the domestic engine type spectrum. Aeroengine market demand for medium thrust turbofan engines with vector nozzles.

From the performance parameters of the S3-2 type technical verification machine and the performance description of the turbofan-19 "Huangshan" on the Internet, the two are very close. It is possible that the advanced technology development of the S3-2 type technical verification machine has reached the target. After obtaining the approval of the engine model development project, it entered the prototype development stage.

At some airshows in China a few years ago, there was an unidentified medium-thrust engine more than once. The maximum afterburning thrust was 9500kgf. In terms of appearance, this engine not only has a structure similar to the Russian RD93. There are also similarities with the European and American F404 and EJ200 engines. However, this engine appeared in the air show, there is no follow-up related information to prove that it uses the official model and name.








https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/ws19.htm
 
PAF has enough funds... we have not purchased any jets since the F-16s in 2006. Funds were earmarked over a decade ago for 42 jets... that will be PAFs initial purchase with upto 100 overtime.

75 million x 42 = 3.15 billion

We are spending 6 billion on 8 chinese subs :D
And how do you know , and think that we are not superpower or something , how we can manage/maintain those 2 stealth jets logistic will be nightmares for Pakistan, 1 stealth jet will enough for Pakistan
 
And how do you know , and think that we are not superpower or something , how we can manage/maintain those 2 stealth jets logistic will be nightmares for Pakistan, 1 stealth jet will enough for Pakistan

Why are funds such an issue for you?

As stated previously PAF decided to stick with JF-17 since the odd purchase of the 18 F-18s in 2006. Funds were initially set aside long ago. Also PAF wont purchase 100 jets in a single day. These are long term programs. PAF is adamant about JF-17 block 3 being the last 4th generation program for it. Everything going forward will be taking into consideration future threats. PAF sacraficed a lot by not going for J-10 in 2005 and rather waiting for the Chinese to come up with something better. Even in 2015 there was talk of PAF going for J-10s once the US held off on the 8 new F-16s.

The fruits of PAFs patience are now paying off. PAF intends to dominate the 5th generation race. Our biggest ally now has jets that can compete with the best of the U.S. let alone Europe. If the PAF was in panic mode it would have purchased a jet right after the Indians signed for the Rafale. This shows the PAF is confident in the direction it is taking.

PAF has a requirement for 300-400 5th generation jets up to 2040. All these jets wont be bought or produced in a day. Technology improves, production improves.
 
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