Pakistan officially inducts HQ 9 Air Defence system

[The SC]

Correct - not only was it there a while ago but the Indians too were aware of it being there after a few months in country. Currently Ravi Nirudkar at Raytheon is making his pitch for a large AARGM purchase by India but is being countered by DRDO with Rudram. Hopefully the DRDO guys prevail so there is a half operational system and not something as well built and effective as the AARGM.

http://www.jmest.org/wp-content/uploads/JMESTN42351927.pdf

I guess China and Pakistan know of these methods..at least..

 

[V. Makarov]

Had to open this thread out of frustration.
Pakistanis are so deep in their inferiority complex that they always downplay own country's capabilities.
With the new HQ-9P purchase which is most likely the HQ-9BE, people are sure it's some old junk from Chinese bone yard and not the latest export version.
The BE version has ABM capabilities and out of the usual Pakistani inferiority complex, nobody is discussing that.
So come on, take the risk, and discuss that.

Downplaying our abilities has been part of the strategic policy for a while now. Do you know we have been using the HQ-9 system for a WHILE now? The system was formally inducted to increase the threshold of any skirmishes with India.

 

[LeGenD]

All the SAM systems have a very patchy coverage when it comes to intercepting cruise missiles or maneuvering supersonic warheads and no system is can claim to be 100% effective, as they have not been tested in a real world scenario. Patriot sometimes failed to effectively intercept even the rudimentary low tech Yemeni ballistic missiles in Saudi Arabia, but overall they did a good job.

As for Pakistan, acquisition of long range High altitude SAM system is a welcome addition doesn't matter how we got it and from where we got it. The point is now we have the capability to engage enemies from far away by just a push of button.

HQ-9 is a mature and decent system comparable to any other SAM system. Even Turkish trials validated their effectiveness (patriots are deployed in Turkey by NATO and Turks know their capabilities too). But it's also understandable why Turkey opted for S400 system eventually. Different specs longer range missiles, NATO would scream aloud if Turkey establishes close relations with Russia and may be political reasons too. Turkey isn't aligned with China on various geopolitical issues like Uyighurs are Turkish descendants, and current Turk regime is very sensitive when it comes to their cousins (like recently in case of Azerbaijan).

True.

Saudi defenses have had radar coverage gaps which could be exploited by the Houthi rebels in Yemen and Iran at times. Saudi territory is very large and it will be expensive to make its radar coverage robust.

Saudi defenses have impressed on many counts as well. They have created a world record in terms of intercepts achieved with Patriot systems by now. Some of these intercepts are very impressive as well.

Supersonic collision: Watch the moment a Houthi missile is intercepted by Saudi air defence

Ballistic missiles can now be intercepted despite travelling at speeds of more than 2 kilometres per second

www.thenationalnews.com

This strike package composed of 1 x Burkan-3 class MRBM and 6 x UAVs in total. It was completely neutralized by a Saudi Patriot/PAC-3 configuration.

Intercepts can be messy developments as well. Resulting debris have damaged Public property and injured people at times.

Some of the attacks can be ignored as well. If trajectory of an incoming wave is non-threatening - let it go. It might have propaganda value for the culprit but it is better to save costs.

Great insight in following link:

Saudi Air Defense Stops Most Houthi Strikes - Breaking Defense

A record number of ballistic missile and drone attacks have tested Saudi air defense capabilities. They've succeeded admirably but at a high cost.

breakingdefense.com

- - - - -

1 x Spanish Patriot battery was last stationed in Turkish Incirlik Airbase. This is much older Patriot/PAC-2 configuration.

Spain – Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance

missiledefenseadvocacy.org

Patriots at Incirlik Base can remain for 6 months more in 2020, Spanish defense minister says

The Patriot air defense system deployed in southern Turkey’s Incirlik Base can remain in the country for another six months in 2020 upon Ankara’s...

www.dailysabah.com

Americans have not stationed one of its latest Patriot battery systems in Turkey lately.

Turkey could certainly observe what happened in the course of the Saudi-Yemen war. This would still not be representative of some of the capabilities demonstrated in some of the latest American live-fire intercepts on its soil.

Turkey have bought S-400 system anyways. Turkey wants to develop its own LRSAM in fact. This is why Turkey was seeking limited ToT and co-production from any supplier. S-400 system can provide valuable insights to them.

This might surprise you but KSA have shown interest in S-400 system for the same reasons. Saudi also desire in-house LRSAM development capability.

KSA is have also ordered the latest PAC-3 MSE class interceptors and THAAD system.

 

[skyshadow]

Already discussed on the other thread, OEM specifies it has limited ABM capability, good for upto 1000km range BMs. No need for new thread.

do you know what that means ? good for upto 1000km range BMs, don't pass from it soooooo lightly

 

[skyshadow]

can anyone tell me the top speed of its missiles ????

 

[The Terminator]

Gentlemen in this thread we have talked alot about the HQ-9 system itself, but talked less about its possible employment; so I think its right time we should initiate debate on its employment.

Now My take on this is that I don't know for what reason but I have a feeling that at least few batteries would be tasked to provide long range cover to the two strike corps of Pakistan Army in their offensive operations inside Indian territory, same as

- FM-90 and MANPAD would accompany for SHORAD purpose

- LY-80 is supposed to provide LOMAD coverage

- And few batteries of HQ-9 for HIMAD cover to offensive force

So it will not only deployed inside Pakistani territory providing SAM coverage to inland defence and civilian installations but would also act in offensive role .... In this case 100+ KM range make sense.

Would it be a wise decision to deploy a long range SAM system in middle of the enemy territory? IMHO It's expensive, large and a vital asset worth shrouding and protecting itself and not to be brought on the Frontlines.

Even then if you wanna use them in offensively well inside hostile territories and if somehow sh*t hits the fan, can we airlift them back to the safety? Can C-130s transport them? Or we would require il-78 for it, which we don't have many.

 

[SQ8]

Ravi moved to BAE systems now.....

Guess they would be pitching something as well. But Raytheon has a high chance of getting a sizable contract after this.

 

[sanel1412]

Actualy ABM capatibility of hq-9 is very questionable,china initialy did based its missile partialy on S-300V but ABM part of S-300V was never added..it doesnt have dedicated ABM batalion level engagment radar as S-300V,VM and dedicated giant missile...that is what gives S-300V and VM true ABM capability to engage SCUD like missiles so I dont realy know what makes it ABM capable,it is probably only limited to low atlitude quasi BM...not effective for true BM. S-300 V/VM has dedicated giant missile(TEL with two larger missiles) and one additional higher level engagment radar..something s-300P family and HQ-9 never got..they marketing probably HQ-9 as Russians S-300 P family.."limited ABM capability"..which actualy not exist since it only can engage short range,low atlitude quasi BM..those are BM like Luna...they have low atlitude trajectory as rockets..True SCUD like BM fly outside atmosphere first,than warhead separate from missile and it reach hypersonic speed in lower trajectory...that is why you need high altitude engagement radar and missile that can hit missile at higher atlitude while not at full speed. That is why S-300V/VM has additional missile and radar

 

[airmarshal]

Isnt HQ9 based on S-300? So how come it has ABM capability?

 

[The Terminator]

Pak Army might go for the Chinese FK-2000 which is similar to the Pantsir system to further strengthen its point defense air defense capabilities as Russian Pantsirs aren't coming. It can be a perfect match for Pantsir

It can shoot down targets from 15m to 12km in attitude within a range of 25 km with its 12 AA missiles and 2 gattling guns. It can also shoot down cruise missiles and air to ground precision guided munitions. A perfect short range killing machine can protect high value assets or armored formations as a close in weapons system.

 

[The Terminator]

If PAF is looking to elect their own SAM system would be interested to know how they approach their needs

However I find it redundant that PAF needs their own SAM setup , would imagine the Air Defense Unit for Military would be responsible for keeping all high value targets protected

It makes more sense that all of the Air Space is protected from one Command and Control Center, Under Military Control

PAF would be better off to use their part of funding , to setup

• 2 Fill Gap , 4.5 generation Specialty Squadrons
• These Units would be more for Patrols over the Sea / Support for Sea Units or Coastal Defense
• Or Buy some Bombers

Every Department of defense with their own SAM system seems redundant
For Navy since they are at Sea it does makes sense they have their own setup as their defensive weapons are on the ship

Exactly, I feel the same. Wouldn't it be an overkill to deploy 2 seperate SAM systems by 2 different branches of the military fulfilling the same role! Well if we had a lot of oil money then why not but money is scarce and we have to plug in a lot of holes like a true 4.5 Gen long range deep strike capable fighter to complement JF-17 thunder or as you said an ALCM carrier bomber capable of launching volleys of cruise missiles deep from KPK into India. Or speed up the AL Khalid mass production and AK2 development etc

Agreed there is literally no comparisons between Patriot vs S300/400. The records clearly speak for themselves. Patriot missiles have had a almost 95% success rate in shooting down houthi drones/BM/CMs in the last year or so. Before that people would claim the system had flaws when it was clear the Saudis were not trained upto standards, but that has changed in the last year. KSA now has one of the worlds highest rates of BM interception.

Compared to the S300/S400 whose record is almost laughable in the Syrian conflict or even the most recent Armenian conflict where they were blown to bits by 30,000 USD israeli drones

If i had to pick between the patriot vs S400 id pick the patriot hands down any day of the week esp if funds were not an issue.

When it comes to HQ9BE vs S400 id pick the HQ9BE hands down, due to Chinese advancement in electronics. They are simply 2 decades ahead of russia when it comes to semiconductors, electronics, chips, etc... all which shows in hardware/software.

Do houthis have cruise missiles? never heard of them. But they do have some shitty Ballistic missiles for sure.

 

[Genghis khan1]

May be, May be not but based on other water down procurement for Navy and Air force, I doubt it’s BE or some custom design super duper ABM version for Pakistan.

Army is little different when it comes to procurement, but still it’s all comes down to cost.

 

[MH.Yang]

Actualy ABM capatibility of hq-9 is very questionable,china initialy did based its missile partialy on S-300V but ABM part of S-300V was never added..it doesnt have dedicated ABM batalion level engagment radar as S-300V,VM and dedicated giant missile...that is what gives S-300V and VM true ABM capability to engage SCUD like missiles so I dont realy know what makes it ABM capable,it is probably only limited to low atlitude quasi BM...not effective for true BM. S-300 V/VM has dedicated giant missile(TEL with two larger missiles) and one additional higher level engagment radar..something s-300P family and HQ-9 never got..they marketing probably HQ-9 as Russians S-300 P family.."limited ABM capability"..which actualy not exist since it only can engage short range,low atlitude quasi BM..those are BM like Luna...they have low atlitude trajectory as rockets..True SCUD like BM fly outside atmosphere first,than warhead separate from missile and it reach hypersonic speed in lower trajectory...that is why you need high altitude engagement radar and missile that can hit missile at higher atlitude while not at full speed. That is why S-300V/VM has additional missile and radar

Isnt HQ9 based on S-300? So how come it has ABM capability?

The main missile performance of FD2000B is equivalent to 48N6E3, and that of HQ9B is equivalent to 48N6DM.

FD2000B is similar to S300PMU2.
HQ9B is similar to S400 lacking 48N6.
HQ9C is similar to S400 with enhanced anti missile capability.
HQ19 is similar to a mixture of THAAD-ER and S500.

S500 is not an upgraded version of S400. S400 is an upgraded version of S300P and S500 is an upgraded version of S300V. S400 is suitable for air defense in important locations, and S500 is suitable for theater air defense (77N6N and 77N6N1 are more suitable for intercepting fighters).
HQ9C and HQ19 have better anti missile capability than S400 and S500. HQ9B has the capability of intercepting missiles with a range of 600km, HQ9C has the capability of intercepting missiles with a range of 1000km, and HQ19 has the midcourse anti missile capability. HQ19 is similar to THAAD, HQ29 is similar to PAC3, HQ26 is similar to SM3, and SC19 is used to intercept satellites.

 

[GumNaam]

Had to open this thread out of frustration.
Pakistanis are so deep in their inferiority complex that they always downplay own country's capabilities.
With the new HQ-9P purchase which is most likely the HQ-9BE, people are sure it's some old junk from Chinese bone yard and not the latest export version.
The BE version has ABM capabilities and out of the usual Pakistani inferiority complex, nobody is discussing that.
So come on, take the risk, and discuss that.

negative. its not out of any inferiority complex. We just want neighbor to the east to develop hemorrhoids the size of grape fruits out of sheer anxiety thinking that we can hit 'em 150 to 250 KM deep inside their own territory while they are stuck between a pissed off Russia holding on to the s400s and the vicious catsa sanctions by india's candy man in a black van uncle sam.

 

[Sayfullah]

All three services have classified programmes, like the HQ9P, when ever "the powers that be" are willing to declare them, will always prove the point that General Ghafoor made after OP Swift Retort, "we will always surprise you, you will never surprise us".

Is Pakistan working on indigenous sam system? Or are all three services going to buy from other countries?