Pakistan needs to Accelerate Development of newer Blocks of JF-17 Thunder

[MastanKhan]

Even block one Tejas comes with python HOBS and dash 5 HMD from isrsael.

IS THIS A OVERSIGHT or deliberate attempt to concentrate THUNDERS on BVR capability and air to surface operations FIRST

maybe PAF feel the age of with visual range combat is over and feels no need FOR HMD/HOBS.

For the record THUNDERS have now been in service 9 years

Hi,

The F22 has YET to be integrated with the Aim 9X missile---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PAF has two main issues to deal with.

First its Trump card state of the art fighter today is its F16 of 75 planes , These are always likely to be compromised by deliberate withholding of spares or even sanctions in a war with india . That threat has been compounded by indo/usa cosying up these last few years.

The second issue is that both block one & block two thunders nearly 80 planes have one serious limitation over all of india.s 500+ air combat planes. That being that every single IAF fighter comes with HMD/HOBS missles as standard even outdated soon to be replaced fleet of 125 mig21 bisons.

Even block one Tejas comes with python HOBS and dash 5 HMD from isrsael.

IS THIS A OVERSIGHT or deliberate attempt to concentrate THUNDERS on BVR capability and air to surface operations FIRST

maybe PAF feel the age of with visual range combat is over and feels no need FOR HMD/HOBS.

For the record THUNDERS have now been in service 9 years

Modern HMD/S with HOBS were just not available. The A-Darter just entered full-scale production for South Africa in late 2015/early 2016. As for HMD/S, what are Pakistan's options? The Chinese don't have a marketable product yet, only Thales and BAE are left, and neither is an easy avenue. The Tejas uses Elbit's DASH and Rafael's Python 5, neither of which are available to the PAF (due to Pakistan's non-ties with Israel).

Currently, the PAF could try to pick up one of the Thales TopOwl-F or BAE Striker II and integrate it to the A-Darter. Or it can wait for China. Or it could try get and get Denel to buy and re-sell the Elbit DASH or Targo in-exchange for buying a ton of A-Darters.

 

[somebozo]

neither of which are available to the PAF (due to Pakistan's non-ties with Israel).

See, here is one disadvantage again due to our failed foreign policy.
Why dont we try to source the same from PLO??

Pakistani FP is guided by nonsense and not by self interest.

 

[CrusherChamp]

I enjoyed this article very much. Props to the writer, this article deserves recognition. Hopefully PAF will read it or already know's about this idea.

I too believe Pakistan should have two JF-17 programs. One, which should be affordable to third world countries. And one, which should be upgraded to the most advanced jet fighter we can produce!

I totally agree....

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

See, here is one disadvantage again due to our failed foreign policy.
Why dont we try to source the same from PLO??

Pakistani FP is guided by nonsense and not by self interest.

I wouldn't take one or two defence procurement difficulties as foreign policy failures. Yes, Pakistan has a challenged foreign policy, but the niceness of Israel's equipment shouldn't guide decisions.

Let's assume Pakistan recognized Israel, ok, then what is to stop Israel from treating Pakistan the same way every other country (bar Turkey and China), i.e. favour India?

The bigger problem is Pakistan's lack fiscal strength. One way or another, the economy just isn't providing the right output to strengthen Pakistan's fiscal coffers. It may be an issue of tax collection, it could be a lack of high-value exports, it could be too many imports, corruption, poor expenditure, or a mix of all of the above.

Basically, if Pakistan had the money, it would have $50-75 million to spend on developing a HMD/S of its own (or with technical support from Thales, BAE or Airbus Defence & Space).

Anyways, I would personally love it if the PAF can get Thales to develop a digital HMD/S similar to the JHMCS II whereby the system could be attached to the HGU-55/P flight helmets already used by the PAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

I wouldn't take one or two defence procurement difficulties as foreign policy failures. Yes, Pakistan has a challenged foreign policy, but the niceness of Israel's equipment shouldn't guide decisions.

Let's assume Pakistan recognized Israel, ok, then what is to stop Israel from treating Pakistan the same way every other country (bar Turkey and China), i.e. favour India?

The bigger problem is Pakistan's lack fiscal strength. One way or another, the economy just isn't providing the right output to strengthen Pakistan's fiscal coffers. It may be an issue of tax collection, it could be a lack of high-value exports, it could be too many imports, corruption, poor expenditure, or a mix of all of the above.

Basically, if Pakistan had the money, it would have $50-75 million to spend on developing a HMD/S of its own (or with technical support from Thales, BAE or Airbus Defence & Space).

Hi,

Those ' TWO ' were CRITICAL failures---.

My brother died of a heart attack---the doctor did not diagnose it---the man is dead---so is this a regular failure or critical failure---.

The JF 17 prgram or the F16 procurement---they are 10 and 15 years behind minimal acceptable delay.

In the lives of small nations---they are as critical delays as heart attacks are to human beings.

 

[X-Service Man]

This is the best option, because I dont think Trump will sell F-16 jets to Pakistan.

He is business man could sell Ivanka if the offer was good.
Mater is do we still need sanctioned prone birds or we have better options with China and Russia.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

He is business man could sell Ivanka if the offer was good.
Mater is do we still need sanctioned prone birds or we have better options with China and Russia.

Jf 17 within 5 years will be on par with current F 16s we have.

 

[X-Service Man]

Our slow production rate is due to China who tricks us buy not inducting JF 17 into their services since J 10 and jf 17 performance is quite comparable but due to this prices goes high for JF 17.

 

[CrusherChamp]

PAF has two main issues to deal with.

First its Trump card state of the art fighter today is its F16 of 75 planes , These are always likely to be compromised by deliberate withholding of spares or even sanctions in a war with india . That threat has been compounded by indo/usa cosying up these last few years.

The second issue is that both block one & block two thunders nearly 80 planes have one serious limitation over all of india.s 500+ air combat planes. That being that every single IAF fighter comes with HMD/HOBS missles as standard even outdated soon to be replaced fleet of 125 mig21 bisons.

Even block one Tejas comes with python HOBS and dash 5 HMD from isrsael.

IS THIS A OVERSIGHT or deliberate attempt to concentrate THUNDERS on BVR capability and air to surface operations FIRST

maybe PAF feel the age of with visual range combat is over and feels no need FOR HMD/HOBS.

For the record THUNDERS have now been in service 9 years

Bro yes u r wright that indian tejas is equiped with HMD in block 1. But i think trying to putt every thing in 1st block have made the 30 years delay. Secondely jf17 block 1 and 2 r build to replacs f7 not miraj or f16. Block 3 will replace miraj and according to my knowledge jf17 1 and 2 r much superior to f7. Finaly i dont think PAF is goint to replace or can replace whole fleets with 5th or 4++ gen aircrafts. i think PAF wats to replace their f7 and miraj with planes having same capabilities or little bit superior just new ones so that thay can surve atmost 20 to 30 years and then skip 4++ gen and go for 5th gen directoly.
Thats how i see things goingon. May b i am wrong.

 

[Centurion2016]

Hi,

The F22 has YET to be integrated with the Aim 9X missile---.

The raptor is a 400 million fifth generation fighter that kills before you see him.from 200 miles .

It is esorted by aesa equipped f16 and f15 and soon f35"in hundreds.

I repeat if a thunder goes to war against five hundred indian fighters all of then have bvr missles and hmd/hobs missles your thunder will either have to achieve kill at bvr ......A 20% possibility of success or get killed in with visual range

Hmd/hobs are crucial in dogfightingb

The issue can be resolved but currently the thunder is inferior in this region

To f16 in paf
And all of India. Flankers migs29 and mirage 2000.

Even the Mig21 has this crucial advantage of ram coated airframes israeli jammers and hmd linked hobs missles

Pakistan needs to invest serious to stay in the fight

 

[Basel]

I enjoyed this article very much. Props to the writer, this article deserves recognition. Hopefully PAF will read it or already know's about this idea.

I too believe Pakistan should have two JF-17 programs. One, which should be affordable to third world countries. And one, which should be upgraded to the most advanced jet fighter we can produce!

This was idea of PAF once (mix of high lo JFTs in every JFT squadron) don't know current situation.

 

[MastanKhan]

The raptor is a 400 million fifth generation fighter that kills before you see him.from 200 miles .

Hi,

Which one is a 200 mile range BVR in the USAF arsenal?

 

[Darth Vader]

JF-17 Block II , Pakistan


Jf-17 Block 2
Our mounting aversion to the idea of Pakistan spending any money towards new-built F-16C/D Block-52+ is no secret, and our strong support for the JF-17 Thunder is well-established.

As a general point, the greatest value of the JF-17 (at least for Pakistan) does not rest in its performance, but in the reality that Pakistan has authority over the platform. By “authority” we refer to the fact that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) can configure the JF-17 according to its will. This is the most essential point. While the F-16 is inherently the superior platform in terms of performance and quality, the PAF does not have the luxury to push the Viper to its available potential.

Just consider the fact that the PAF cannot readily integrate a high off-boresight (HOBS) air-to-air missile (AAM) onto its F-16s without U.S. approval of some shape or form. Even HOBS AAM that have been technically cleared for the F-16, such as the IRIS-T (developed by the German company Diehl BGT), cannot be configured onto the PAF’s F-16s without the U.S.’ approval. It would basically have to wait on America’s willingness to release the comparable AIM-9X; and this story is repetitive – the PAF’s F-16s have yet to be equipped with stand-off weapons (SOW), anti-ship missiles (AShM), and anti-radiation missiles (ARM).

On the other hand, despite the JF-17’s comparatively limited performance, the PAF has been able to arm the JF-17 with the C-802 AShM, and has the H-2/H-4 SOW and MAR-1 ARM in the pipeline (if not in the process of integration). And as we have repeatedly stated in earlier articles, it is the JF-17 that has a HOBS AAM, active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, infrared search and track (IRST), and air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) integration in the pipeline – not the PAF’s F-16s. What benefit does the F-16’s multi-role prowess offer the PAF when that prowess is gradually eroding in the face of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy (IN)’s impressive qualitative advancements?

Finally, there is the reality that unlike the F-16, the PAF benefits from an increasingly adept domestic base capable of thoroughly supporting the JF-17. Yes, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is a novice in terms of being an aerospace industry entity, but it is gradually and incrementally becoming capable, despite the difficult political and economic limitations Pakistan throws onto itself. The workshare agreement has shifted 58% of the JF-17’s airframe manufacturing to Kamra, and efforts are underway to bring a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for Klimov turbofans as well. With the maintenance and support channel being domestic, the PAF can draw upon the benefits of assured and affordable accessibility. The necessities produced in Pakistan (and in some cases imported from China and Russia) are at the affordable side of the cost-spectrum; the money that goes back into PAC also goes back into Pakistan.

To be honest, the points being explained in this article are mostly earlier ideas being conveyed from a different set of angles, but they set the basis of why it is important to consider ideas about next steps, not just for the PAF, but for PAC and the JF-17 Thunder program.

The F-16 (and import route generally) has become a difficult path to take on, hence the reason why it is imperative that domestic development now take on a much higher level of importance. The PAF ought to seriously consider the value of bringing more of the airframe manufacturing to Kamra. China has been a dependable partner, but urgency and the desire to not take relationships for granted needs to be adopted.

There is a learning curve and a lot of building blocks to set-up, but the expertise and infrastructure built for the JF-17 will prove valuable for future projects. Make no mistake, a unique and independent program is not going to happen, but Pakistan could potentially (one day) offer something of tangible value to an outside partner. We are not talking about ground-breaking research, but at least a chance at becoming a viable co-production partner (that could help pull costs down), or capable licensed manufacturer of more sophisticated sub-systems, etc. It would be a huge shame if – like the K-8 Karakoram – the JF-17 program ends up at a plateau, and then just stays flat from an indigenization and development standpoint.

The PAF should also be critically averse to the notion of capping the JF-17. In other words, the fighter must not be relegated into becoming just a ‘second-tier’ fighter (relative to other fighter options for the PAF). For all intents the purposes, the geo-political and economic reality has made the JF-17 the backbone and edge-driver of the PAF fighter fleet. By “edge-driver” we refer to the idea of it being the platform where the PAF has the flexibility to keep up with qualitative changes in South Asia, such as the eventual entry of AESA radars. While the PAF must not waste funds, the PAF ought to ensure that the JF-17 Block-III (and potentially Block-IV and Block-V) are equipped with the most appropriate – in terms of the cost-to-performance ratio – subsystems available. It would be a shame to see a less capable AESA radar (e.g. via less transmit/receive modules than possible) due to prohibitive costs (which could have been avoided by walking away from a certain F-16 deal).

Finally, it is no secret that the PAF and PAC have been seeking to secure export clients for the JF-17. There is some substantive potential, but again, it is important that the PAF/PAC are careful with next steps. At some point, it may be prudent to clearly separate work between domestic and export variants of the JF-17. In terms of export, some areas could be accelerated, such as the procurement of a helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) or HOBS AAM. Subsystems such as radars and electronic warfare (EW) and electronic countermeasure (ECM) suites for export-grade JF-17s could be acquired from the market; the risk for the PAF is minimal because it would not necessarily intend to use those systems for itself. The PAF cannot let its own requirements get guided by the market, but on the other hand, it cannot muddle the needs of prospective clients with its own, which is what happened with the omission of the dual-seat JF-17 in the initial years of the JF-17’s development.

http://www.asian-defence.net/2016/05/pakistan-needs-to-accelerate.html

As i agree with you on some part there will always be some restrictions when you buy from some one biggest one is Pakistan and china relationship , no matter what Pakistan says every one knows china will get there access to western tech through Pakistan which has happened and no one will give you everything for free

Now coming back to main point different versions of one aircraft like f 35 of Pakistan
Yes there are few dedicated roles for one platform but one always will be the primary

Now PAF is the only one which is keeping thunder program up and running for now

Paf choose slow and steady approach which is a good decision why
1 Price
2 man power
3 previous experience
4 research , materials
Pakistan wanted a budget aircraft which can replace and bring bit of modernness to its fleet will not breaking the bank and can handle enemy

Now pakistan and china are doing that and they are developing and deploying different systems for this little air craft

Pakistan cant simply experiment with different variants at same time because they dont have enough resources e.g Enough teams who can accomplish this time ,when india is bulking up with new orders
More teams mean less communication, more confusion and will only delay the project
If pakistan had different companies specially in private sector which can handle these jobs it would have speed up the process bit

Thunder is getting there and really soon when you see pakistan has reached its number you will see a rapid development of this bird with different dedicated roles

The only way is instead of closing up Pakistan should keep investing and developing its aeronautics industry

Hi,

It actually has all those options that you mentioned---. As it is a modular design---so---it can be catered to the buyers needs and desires---it is plug and play---.

People Take plug and play as they are plugging a usb drive into windows laptop and it will windows automatically download the new drivers

 

[Centurion2016]

THIS ARTICLE WILL HELP EXPLAIN the limitations of JF17 in its current block 2 configuration

ITR ,STR , HMD & HIGH OFF BORE SIGHT MISSILES:

This for all those who are of the opinion that F16 has better turn rate and hence will win a dog fight. This downright ignorance.

Delta wing jet fighters gave better Instantaneous Turn Rate (ITR) and poor Sustained Turn Rate (STR) , when compared with swept wing fighters like F16 (strictly speaking F16 is a cropped delta design) . Delta wing fighters also have better supersonic maneuverability than swept wing fighters.

Now combining better ITR , Helmet mounted display , which enables look down - shoot down capability , pilot just needs to point the nose of the aircaft in the general direction of the enemy fighter , lock on to it and launch his High offbore sight missiles like R73 , which allow for off bore sight upto 60 degrees. So the fighter need not turn in a sustained manner to lock on to the enemy fighter and cannons are the last resort only after everything else fails to work as it was supposed to.

This allows a delta wing fighters like Mirage 2000 & TEJAS to have an upper hand over F16 in dog fights, especially when mounting combat air patrols.

The article was comparing F16 with delta Fighters armed with HMD/HOBS.

The THEORY applies to JF17 as well.

IN A DOG FIGHT Thunders will struggle against DELTA/HMD/HOBS combo

Having said that MAYBE the JF17 idea concept is standoff strike missions & BVR engagement only.

Hi,

Which one is a 200 mile range BVR in the USAF arsenal?

I DID NOT SAY USA have a BVR missle with range 200km

I SAID F22 raptor with its HUGE APG77 AESA radar will see you from 200km .

Coming back to topic the THUNDER limitations ?