Pakistan navy post 2020 - Future Plans

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

What a beautiful picture

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

4 Chinese Destroyers
4 Turkey Corvettes

Would be a tremendous addition to Pakistan's Navy

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

@SBUS_CXK

The forum rules are to not discuss airforce material on navy thread you might be new so thought would let you know

Drifting away from talking about the Navy and subject of the thread will cause negative impact

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

@seven0seven

To be honest Chinese are leading the tech world today their ship design already showcase creativity

Don't dwell on past

China are leader today in all field
a) Aerospace
b) Space Research
c) Navy


The variety of the new Navy Ships china is making is enough Proof what they can build and design from scratch

China with their ingenuity have bridged the gap between them and Russia or USA or Europe very quickly in last 15 years


Turkey while they are great planners are still fine-tuning their designs and going into production but China is already ahead having completed almost 40+ ships

In Muslim countries Turkey is without doubt #1 but to make it to global ranking their is gap between China and Turkey

Sure Turkey will grow and achieve that same level as China but China is without doubt ahead becasue their projects have started 15-20 years ago

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I think the safe item to compare is the Turkey Navy Ships (Milgem) vs what China have in their arsenal to discuss what is a comparable platform


Pakistan is set to recieve 4 Milgem Ships , and it would be interesting to know , how they compare vs the 4 Type093 ships Pakistan is getting (marketed as f22p enhanced)

 

[Tank131]

Everyone here needs to cut the bullshit. This thread is about PN post 2020. I am not sure why it has become a discussion about how China develops its defense tech nor i sure why it is a discussion of China vs Turkish defense tech. These are nonsense debates and idiotic discussions. The reality is that both Chinese and Turkish vessels will be part of PN. Likely there will chinese weaponry on the Turkish vessels. Turkey has just started producing defense goods and they are so far doing an admirable job. China has beem doing it for a long time. They are also doing an admirable job. The proof is that Pakistan operates both nations equipment. I would request we move on with topics at hand.

 

[Armchair]

It seems you didn’t like my example so couldn’t find a proper response. Your real problem is that; you see yourself flying above the clouds with forming arrogant sentences, while approaching anybody out of yourself with an underestimating mindset with showing some specific examples China made great progress. When somebody introduced somerhing which make you think like “How can a country like X developing something similar to what “mighty” China has met difficulty to produce”, You need to interfere the discussion and latet converting discussion with asking “How can you compare mighty China” as if somebody quoted you or mentioned about yourself and so you start to give your opponents some tech lecture as if you have any idea what you are talking. Have you ever asked yourself Why do Turkey need an intercontinental ballistic missiles ? Just waste of money, time and resources. Turkey has envisaged a roadway to develop missiles up to 2500km range and I am sorry but You couldn’t see them until Turkish authority gave permission since they are classified programs. I know You want some pissing contest to feel better but I would rather reminding your lacking part in your logic.

There is no need for such a tone and both parties need to calm down. The above post reeks of a condescending and the "flying above the clouds" mindset that it purportedly blames the other. I think this post is the one that derailed the thread to kingdom come and we all need to just move past and get back to the topic on hand - Pakistan Navy!

It's interesting how DefenceTurkey is still noting how the 4th Pakistani MILGEM will be different from the first 3 (and designed in Pakistan with Turkish support). I wonder, what are the chances that the 4th MILGEM ends up becoming a variant of the I-Class... What say you @Tank131, you think we can will this into existence, like we did with VLS?

I think someone in the PN hierarchy reads PDF, or at least suspect the same. I would ideally be happy with greater localization of major subsystems, particularly SAMs. So what I hope with the 4th ship is a ship with a high level of indigenous content.

More importantly, what I am hoping to see beyond 2020 is a new class of ships. Technology has created now the ability for even small ships to have the capability of larger ships in the past. This means that we can now shrink the capabilities of a frigate into a 1000 ton corvette. Basically on the 80-20 rule - that such a ship would have 80 percent of the capability at a significantly lower cost.

A UAV Camcopter 1000 or similar would drastically reduce costs
The A gun has become a relic of the past as combat has changed from the past with future combat being shootouts of missiles and countering missiles. Shrinking the main gun to a CIWS would also help balance a small ship and allow a VLS in the front behind the A gun location.
ASW has also shrunk, what 30 years ago used to take giant equipment now has shrunk by a factor of 10. Hull mounted or towed or UAV borne, ASW has changed.
Increased automation has reduced crew by a factor of 5.
An AESA radar has reduced the clutter, bulk and need for multiple radars to a multimode tower.
Bringing all these things together and utilizing economies of scale, one can basically revolutionize surface warfare as we know it today. All we need is the vision and the guts to do it with.

In the

To be honest India, much like Pakistan labels its ships with semantics rather than capabilities. India actually (capabilities wise) has 9 destroyers (Kolkata (3) Dehli (3 and Shivalik (3 but they label them as frigates)) and 14 Frigates (Rajput (4 which they label destroyers) Talwar (6-actually a heavy frigate), Brahmaputra (3), and Godavari (1)). Most of these also focus on Antiship and land attack with really only Kolkatas offering reasonable long range (100km Barak 8) air defense while the others carry either short range defense (12km Barak 1 or 15km S-125M) or medium range defese (Shtils which are essentially the same as HQ-16-40KM). Many of their more modern ships (Kolkatas, Dehlis, Shivaliks and Talwars) carry hosts of both Antiship and Air defense missiles and as such should be able to reliably operate independently and in conjunction as part of a CBG providing multi tier defense. To that end PN needs weapons that can both outrange (Harba) their AShMs and overwhelm their defenses (such as a hypersonic missile like CM-400AKG or its YJ-12 Equivalent). They also hace to have enough defensive chops to to overcome Saturation attacks from these vessels which all carry a combo of at least 16 Barhamos/Styx AShM. That means catch brahmos with enough time to take it out (the longer the range and more weapons at each ships disposale the better).

So when we talk about 052D which has 64 cells (probably 16 cells used by YJ-18, 8 cells for CY-5, AND 40 cells for Hq-9) and 24 cells FL-3000N, they would by a good margin be the most powerful ships in South Asia (Kolkata has 48cells for 32 Barak-8 and 16 Brahmos). But even with 40 missiles at 200km, the 2-4 052D wont be enough to significantly move the needle. Now add those 4 Type 054A and you start to create a multilevel defense. If the MILGEM can get 16 cells equipped with quad packed CAMM-ER (45-80KM range) for 64 missiles and you MLU the F-22Ps with new radar amd GENSIS Advent CMS and an 8-16 cells vls also armed with CAMM-ER (32-64 missiles) now you have a very potent defense. So yes, destroyers are a key part of a fleet defense but even the 052D wont be enough without effective picket ships.

In the long term, I don't think Pakistan's strategic goals should be to match or over match India, which would not be financially wise. India being a much larger opponent will simply overmatch us symmetrically. Our solution rather lies in doing something different. This means using disruptive technologies, and using strategies based on technological changes that are outdating old concepts and bringing in new ways of thinking.

Remember that the last major naval battle was essentially the Falklands and the lesson learned has been lost by most navies - the power of AShMs particularly air launched ones.

In the greater picture of things, as missiles and ranged attack became more powerful, naval vessels shrunk in size. From the battleships, one reached the size of cruisers and destroyers, and today it it increasingly looking like that frigates, which did not even count as 1st class warships once, now are the bread and butter of naval warfare.
If we extend this thought, we realize that we have reached a point where our aim should not be 052s or 055s alone, but solutions should be found rather in corvettes, who are essentially now taking the place of what frigates used to do (and frigates are now taking the place of what destroyers used to do).

If there is one fatal flaw of all third world forces, they never understand the evolutionary nature of war. For them it is about finding what the 1st world is doing and trying to copy it as best they can. In the rare circumstances where the 3rd world understood this, they often came up with something brilliant. Like the Vietcong. Like the JF-17. Like the DF-21. Or even like Is with its hybrid maneuver warfare.
Our aim should be to think outside the box and come up with such evolutionary solutions. Otherwise we will remain always 1 step behind India and 2 steps behind the West.

 

[cabatli_53]

There is no need for such a tone and both parties need to calm down. The above post reeks of a condescending and the "flying above the clouds" mindset that it purportedly blames the other. I think this post is the one that derailed the thread to kingdom come and we all need to just move past and get back to the topic on hand - Pakistan Navy!

My tone is quite normal. If there are people who feel triggered, They can calm down. I didn’t even care to answer offtopic posts of the related member during the past 3 pages. No need to pick up comments to create a perception purposely. My post is
directed to a member who drail the thread with arrogant behaviors to convert the subject into a pissing contest when a Turkish naval thing is shared related with PN. If somebody needs to judge the posts, There are Moderators and Admins who are on charge to follow the topics. If you think my post caused the actual problem here, you can simply report it to GHQ. That is not a thread that members search their own scapegoat in acc to their own logic, otherwise you will lead to drail the topic more. Furthermore, I think The people who follow this thread are also able to comprehend what was discussed without needing your lead in the previous pages.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think Cobalti always contributes with amazing data on Turkish items his input is always valuable however sometimes new members take the conversations in a different direction which does not helps the actual discussion on the thread's main purpose

 

[SBUS-CXK]

Yes. In fact. This has nothing to do with Turkish friends, I accept his criticism of my own. sometimes my performance is immature and I have apologized.

About this thread. I hope this is reality-based discussion. we all know. Pakistan faces threats from the world TOP 4 military powers. Other countries can wait these plans. but Kolkata-class and Vikramaditya in nearby waters will not wait for you.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

@SBUS-CXK
Great point which is why I have also started considering the dangerous situation in region even acquiring of 4 retired Chinese destroyers , can help Pakistan improve it's Navy in short period. The ships can be enhanced with local Ship to Ship or Ship to Land missiles

The 4x Type093 ships we are getting from China referenced as F22P+ are certainly going to add to the solidification of defences at sea

The 4x Turkish Milgem ships will add a secondary layer of defense which will still serve a very important purpose in Pakistan navy

It will take some time for Turkey to conclude development on large ships bigger then milgem and only than we can compare the countries for large ships manufacturing

The advancements in Turkish Engineering , will continue just as China has continued to research with it's own products for over 20-40 years

In due time we can say that both nations are at same level

The difference today is

• Production Rate
• Launch of completed concepts into Serial production

China has been in serial production for last 15-20 years
Turkey is just launching it's new products or close to finishing research and development


China has been mastering the art of Engineering for quite sometime and Turkey without doubt is #1 in Muslim nations

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan Navy needs Frigates and Destroyers which have VLS for long range Cruise Missiles. Those ships are the must for future other wise we are sitting ducks.

French FREMM Frigate

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Pakistan Navy needs Frigates and Destroyers which have VLS for long range Cruise Missiles. Those ships are the must for future other wise we are sitting ducks.

French FREMM Frigate

We need ships equipped with HHQ 9B

 

[Zarvan]

We need ships equipped with HHQ 9B

We need Ships which can fire long range cruise missiles from VLS. Air Defence ships are waiting for a Missile to come. The ships I am talking about can unleash hell on any Indian city whether Mumbai or Hyderabad or Chennai or Goa or Bangluru.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

We need Ships which can fire long range cruise missiles from VLS. Air Defence ships are waiting for a Missile to come. The ships I am talking about can unleash hell on any Indian city whether Mumbai or Hyderabad or Chennai or Goa or Bangluru.

Why from VLS sir? Harbah is not a VLS but it is long range Cruise Missile and can be fired from FACs, Type 054s and Milgems