Pakistan Munitions Development

[Quwa]

Although Pakistan is having difficulty financing complete platforms such as fighter aircraft, it doesn't mean all areas of modernization are necessarily closed. One big and underreported area is that of advanced munitions development.

In the previous decade Pakistan made some notable strides in the development of standoff weapons such as the Ra'ad ALCM and H2 and H4 glide bombs. Moreover, it also acquired (rumoured with some form of technology transfer) MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles.

As of late however we've seen a greater emphasis on simply buying munitions, especially AAM and PGBs, off the shelf than to actually develop them. I find this to be a very curious turn considering the focus on having JF-17 as a form of safeguard against sanctions. Why sanction-proof the delivery platform, but not the things that the platform is meant to deliver?

Given Pakistan's work on Ra'ad and H2/H4, I think developing our own J-SOW like system is well within the realm of possibility. Such a system can serve as a mid-range precision strike weapon to sit between Ra'ad and PGBs.

 

[Donatello]

Although Pakistan is having difficulty financing complete platforms such as fighter aircraft, it doesn't mean all areas of modernization are necessarily closed. One big and underreported area is that of advanced munitions development.

In the previous decade Pakistan made some notable strides in the development of standoff weapons such as the Ra'ad ALCM and H2 and H4 glide bombs. Moreover, it also acquired (rumoured with some form of technology transfer) MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles.

As of late however we've seen a greater emphasis on simply buying munitions, especially AAM and PGBs, off the shelf than to actually develop them. I find this to be a very curious turn considering the focus on having JF-17 as a form of safeguard against sanctions. Why sanction-proof the delivery platform, but not the things that the platform is meant to deliver?

Given Pakistan's work on Ra'ad and H2/H4, I think developing our own J-SOW like system is well within the realm of possibility. Such a system can serve as a mid-range precision strike weapon to sit between Ra'ad and PGBs.

Pakistan's munitions also come from sources that are not prone to sanctions.
The JDAM kits or their clones can be made at home for JF-17
The MAR-1 were bought from Brazil successfully and so were H2/H4 from South Africa and the rest come from China....where there is no issue of sanctions.
USA is already selling the latest version of Hellfire missiles and earlier did the same with the TOW missiles.

Why waste your small resources and time on developing the wheel again and again? Look to the other side of the border, everything defense related they wanted to develop fell short of the intended milestone, time and resources. In the end they bought or did JVs with other nations.

We are developing country, we need to develop a fundamental science and technology base first, create value and then think about doing in house Defense related development.

 

[Bilal.]

For jsow like system we have GB-6 from China.

 

[Quwa]

Pakistan's munitions also come from sources that are not prone to sanctions.
The JDAM kits or their clones can be made at home for JF-17
The MAR-1 were bought from Brazil successfully and so were H2/H4 from South Africa and the rest come from China....where there is no issue of sanctions.
USA is already selling the latest version of Hellfire missiles and earlier did the same with the TOW missiles.

Why waste your small resources and time on developing the wheel again and again? Look to the other side of the border, everything defense related they wanted to develop fell short of the intended milestone, time and resources. In the end they bought or did JVs with other nations.

We are developing country, we need to develop a fundamental science and technology base first, create value and then think about doing in house Defense related development.

Honestly, anything imported is never sanctions proof, no matter how reliable the supplier may seem in relatively easy times. Even China, today the incentive to be tough on Pakistan is much higher than it was in the 1970s. The Chinese are deeply integrated in the global economic system and are trying to build partnerships with other countries, and are also looking to present themselves as responsible global citizens.

As for prioritizing development ahead of defence, I don't think that's an accurate understanding of the fundamental problem.

Yes, a good R&D base is necessary to have a good defence industry, okay, but how does acknowledging that relationship deal with the issue of sanctions in war? Does that issue now solve the risk of a supplier bailing? No. A requisite amount of in house production will still be necessary in order to guarantee the war time effectiveness of the forces.

 

[Donatello]

Honestly, anything imported is never sanctions proof, no matter how reliable the supplier may seem in relatively easy times. Even China, today the incentive to be tough on Pakistan is much higher than it was in the 1970s. The Chinese are deeply integrated in the global economic system and are trying to build partnerships with other countries, and are also looking to present themselves as responsible global citizens.

As for prioritizing development ahead of defence, I don't think that's an accurate understanding of the fundamental problem.

Yes, a good R&D base is necessary to have a good defence industry, okay, but how does acknowledging that relationship deal with the issue of sanctions in war? Does that issue now solve the risk of a supplier bailing? No. A requisite amount of in house production will still be necessary in order to guarantee the war time effectiveness of the forces.

We do take baby steps....but very basic...so basic ammunition for the Army for example is made in house now. However, when you are talking about hypersonic anti-ship missiles or BVR/Anti radiation missiles, you need a lot more than simple construction techniques. You need guidance systems, propellants etc. It will take time to build that up.

 

[The Vicious Kind]

What about PGMs made by GIDS ? has pakistan procured them , are they operational ? .

Takbir bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Quwa]

We do take baby steps....but very basic...so basic ammunition for the Army for example is made in house now. However, when you are talking about hypersonic anti-ship missiles or BVR/Anti radiation missiles, you need a lot more than simple construction techniques. You need guidance systems, propellants etc. It will take time to build that up.

Sure, but it seems we're closer to some systems than others. We clearly have the capacity to design low observable frames for stand-off weapons (e.g. Ra'ad). We clearly have done some work in glide bombs and even rocket-powered glide bombs (e.g. H2 and H4, respectively). Is it that much of a leap to combine the two concepts into one lighter, shorter-range system similar to the Joint Stand-off-Weapon (J-SOW)?

I agree we are quite some time away from fielding our own BVRAAM or anti-ship missiles, especially since those areas require an expertise in solid fuel rockets that allow for incredibly high-speed. But with good developmental partnerships (with South Africa, China, Brazil and Ukraine), I think we can eventually reach that point.

 

[araz]

An interesting topic. Should Pakistan now only buy stuff which it should be able to build in house?. I think for army where the munition is required in large amounts the economy of scale demands local production which is being done. Of more concern/need is ammunition for SAM systems which again should be built in house. I suspect it is simply economy of scale and the demand for such system even for local use/ consumption.

 

[fatman17]

Not to mention the sensors reqd to fire these things

 

[Quwa]

Not to mention the sensors reqd to fire these things

Pakistan could engage in development with foreign support, but it should never consider foreign support a permanent thing or a constant. We should be of the assumption that we will be alone in war, so let's use the good days (i.e. these days) to maximum effect in terms of developing our local capacities.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sure, but it seems we're closer to some systems than others. We clearly have the capacity to design low observable frames for stand-off weapons (e.g. Ra'ad). We clearly have done some work in glide bombs and even rocket-powered glide bombs (e.g. H2 and H4, respectively). Is it that much of a leap to combine the two concepts into one lighter, shorter-range system similar to the Joint Stand-off-Weapon (J-SOW)?

I agree we are quite some time away from fielding our own BVRAAM or anti-ship missiles, especially since those areas require an expertise in solid fuel rockets that allow for incredibly high-speed. But with good developmental partnerships (with South Africa, China, Brazil and Ukraine), I think we can eventually reach that point.

Hi,

I don't know if you ever have been by yourself---being by yourself is being lonely---and loneliness is a terrible thing That is why you make friends and look for friends so that you don't have to be alone.

Same with any technology development---you cannot progress alone by yourself---. You need people of diversity and national alliances. If Britain, Germany, Italy , france and usa have alliances---then what stops us not to have similar alliance---you have china on one side---you have turkey on the other side.

It is all about creating a TEAM---together everyone achieves more.

 

[fatman17]

Take the example of China utilising Russian and Ukrainian and Israeli technology to build it's own weapons which are closing the gap between the west and China

 

[Quwa]

Hi,

I don't know if you ever have been by yourself---being by yourself is being lonely---and loneliness is a terrible thing That is why you make friends and look for friends so that you don't have to be alone.

Same with any technology development---you cannot progress alone by yourself---. You need people of diversity and national alliances. If Britain, Germany, Italy , france and usa have alliances---then what stops us not to have similar alliance---you have china on one side---you have turkey on the other side.

It is all about creating a TEAM---together everyone achieves more.

Britain, France, Italy and U.S are fully independent states, and they are tied by common values in the form of democracy, Capitalism, etc. Pakistan's relationships aren't as deep, they're transactional, though Turkey does have the potential to go deeper.

 

[MastanKhan]

Britain, France, Italy and U.S are fully independent states, and they are tied by common values in the form of democracy, Capitalism, etc. Pakistan's relationships aren't as deep, they're transactional, though Turkey does have the potential to go deeper.

Sir,

Their common tie is Christianity primarily.

Pakistan has ongoing relationship with china and getting close to turkey----.

 

[Quwa]

Sir,

Their common tie is Christianity primarily.

Pakistan has ongoing relationship with china and getting close to turkey----.

There's that as well, but today their international relations is defined by Capitalism and democracy, that's a stronger bond for them right now than Christianity (which differs now e.g. the conservatism in America vs. secularism in Germany and France).