Pakistan Looking To Buy China's J-31 Stealth Fighter

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@MastanKhan , my dear friend, we can't allow such a folly to occur. Who will be holding PAF's feet to blue flames if not our resident fire starter?

Sorry, request denied!

@Mentee , youngman, kindly prepare a large freezer... we are going to freeze our good old MK for next twenty years..how dare the old man such a blasphemy! PDF anti-blasphemy laws must apply now.

Dear mods, kindly, put MKs feet to fire...finally we have chance to get even with the old man for all his 'troublemaking'. Please, don't let this great chance to pass!


Regarding the subject in hand.. well, if PAC doesn't locally produce NGF and Pak FGF then I shall join MK in some firing rituals as well... off the shelf is unacceptable...even if it takes a 100 years. Indians are not coming. So, let us not worry too much here. Pak is safe.

All those who will help in this process are Pak's Friends. However, production has to be local. Time for some independence for Land of Indus! @messiach kindly, provide some to-the-point impulse towards this end.

I am not counting out J31. I like this bird..yet, PAC needs to busy for next three decades. Same goes for Turkish Delight. Turks will pull it off.

Pak First!

 

[T-123456]

I think it is rational to assert that the avation industry of Turkey lags behind that of US right now, which concludes

Of course,we dont have to be like the US,Russia,China,France,compare my country to Sweden but with more indigenous input like ''our'' engine,weapon systems(all kinds of missiles),AESA radar etc.

Turkey may spend more on developing the F-35 peer.

I dont think so,the F-35 will be ready in 2018/2019,the costs will be lower because of interest from many countries.
Btw,Trump warned them to do something about the costs.

AM I sensible ?

Not at all.

 

[The SC]

How can you compare China to turkey

China is a industrial superpower with 200.billion dollar annual defense budget.

Turkey is tiny nation in comparison with gdp and military budget of 10% of Chinease might.

China sounds more on research in aviation than turkey total annual military budget
.you need to understand the link between military power and gdp power

Please go visit the IDEF 2017 thread and spare us a lot of talk..

 

[cabatli_53]

-Turkey produces F-35 Mid body, avionics, landing gears, engine critical parts. Those technologies will directly be transferred to TF-X program.

-Turkey requires an impressive power/weight ratio for twin engine air superiority fighter so Euro fighter EJ-230 -(20000lbf) turbofan engines doesn't meet the thrust requirements of TF-X, so RR and Turkish engine industry will develop a more powerful turbofan to reach required performance parameters. I mean TF-X will have a strong and powerful propulsion plant.

- Pakistan operates two different block fighters from East-China and West-USA/France. Chinese fighters can be replaced with newer generation East block stealth fighters but I don't suppose Pakistan is going to want to be dependent on sole source for such a critical technological area so F-16 replacement will be done over a Western equivalent air superiority fighters-TF-X

-Turkey certainly wants Pakistan a part of TF-X fighter project so Officials are arranging meetings with Pakistani counterparts to inform about TF-X ambitious. China will be a major rival but If Turkey manages to pull brother Pakistan into TF-X fighter project in that period, I think Chance of FC-31 for Pakistan will be lower than today because Huge off-set and ToT deals for TF-X will completely tie Pakistan industry into TF-X program. That's what Turkish officials want to do strategically at present. BAE/RR background of TF-X whose intellectual and property rights solely belong to Turkish authority will be a delicious and capable fighter for the export markets.

 

[Blue Marlin]

-Turkey produces F-35 Mid body, avionics, landing gears, engine critical parts. Those technologies will directly be transferred to TF-X program.

-Turkey requires an impressive power/weight ratio for twin engine air superiority fighter so Euro fighter EJ-230 -(20000lbf) turbofan engines doesn't meet the thrust requirements of TF-X, so RR and Turkish engine industry will develop a more powerful turbofan to reach required performance parameters. I mean TF-X will have a strong and powerful propulsion plant.

- Pakistan operates two different block fighters from East-China and West-USA/France. Chinese fighters can be replaced with newer generation East block stealth fighters but I don't suppose Pakistan is going to want to be dependent on sole source for such a critical technological area so F-16 replacement will be done over a Western equivalent air superiority fighters-TF-X

-Turkey certainly wants Pakistan a part of TF-X fighter project so Officials are arranging meetings with Pakistani counterparts to inform about TF-X ambitious. China will be a major rival but If Turkey manages to pull brother Pakistan into TF-X fighter project in that period, I think Chance of FC-31 for Pakistan will be lower than today because Huge off-set and ToT deals for TF-X will completely tie Pakistan industry into TF-X program. That's what Turkish officials want to do strategically at present. BAE/RR background of TF-X whose intellectual and property rights solely belong to Turkish authority will be a delicious and capable fighter for the export markets.

dont you think the tfx would be more expensive than the j31. note these new fighters will replace the block a/b f16's pakistan got in the 80's. they need to retire in the mid 2020's the tfx wont be ready till the early 2030's.
do you think RR will just give away tech to allow turkey to build hpt's? no chance,an example is the indians they tried to do something similar with the m88 for a joint engine and if feasible the indians will build the trivial stuff whilst safran will build the important bits

china can have the j-31 ready by 2025 the latest.
personally i think pakistan should go for a mix of the 2. the j31 is larger than the tfx and can be used for high endurance deep strikes whilst the tfx can be used for sub offensive missions. also to what extent can tot be transferred to pakistan? pakistan got tot for tech for the jf-17 that avic was very reluctant to hand over but did anyway. and this was source codes and the ability to physically creates the avionics and add any weapon to the jf-17 provided it can fit as one example.

finally price can you really compete with dead low interest rates and unit costs ?

turkish stuff is cheap as compared to western stuff an example being the targeting pod, turkey sold their aselpod which was competeing over the thales damocales.

 

[Leclan]

the problem is :how much experiance does Turkey have on designing a 3rd or 4th gen fighter?
can u just skip the process of years of exp. on aerodynamics,wind tunnel,Avionics，weapon systems and so many others? or,do u really think BAE or other company just sell those core tech to turkey to raise up a competitor with the huge cost of education? interesting~and i didnt mention the engine part yet~
i think the western company just do their business with TFX here.making money with their old techs,which is on sale in international weapon supermarket.and once they r in,u'll never get rid of them.u will just relay on their techs forever.cause u just dont have the know-how.TFX IMO is another S.Korea T-50 program.besides there is really a huge difference between producing F35 with assembling F35,and even more gap with designing F35~

u should know why china could achieve this while so many other countries cannot.just check this:in china,2015,there r more than 7,500,000 bachelor got their degrees，at least 1/3 of them are engineering bachelor.even if only 1% of them go into Aviation Industry，that means 20 thousands new blood.just imagine that.and i didnt mention the industry foundation and all the aviation experience,wind tunnel,super computer ,etc. china already have.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

do you think RR will just give away tech to allow turkey to build hpt's?

Believe it or not, if they design, produce and maintain the engine in Turkey/with Kale Group, they definitely will share large amounts of highly critical knowhow. Otherwise it is simply not possible to meet fundamental contractual obligations.

However, we won't be able to produce these engines on our own without components being directly imported from the UK (-> means no ToT for certain parts). To be quite candid with you, this is still far, far more than Americans, Europeans, South Koreans or Japanese were offering to us. (I ❤ Brexit)

But to be more accurate, a full scale ToT was never a necessary condition for the Turks. The Turkish officials made clear what they really demand from the British partners during the negotiations. For Ankara, it is crucial to have the rights to (re-)export the TFX fighter jet to other countries, including Pakistan, if political decision makers in Ankara want to. This was the decisive factor for choosing UK as a development partner in the first place. This is why TFX is not only a military program but also an investment in our future diplomatic capabilities.

 

[royalharris]

the problem is :how much experiance does Turkey have on designing a 3rd or 4th gen fighter?
can u just skip the process of years of exp. on aerodynamics,wind tunnel,Avionics，weapon systems and so many others? or,do u really think BAE or other company just sell those core tech to turkey to raise up a competitor with the huge cost of education? interesting~and i didnt mention the engine part yet~
i think the western company just do their business with TFX here.making money with their old techs,which is on sale in international weapon supermarket.and once they r in,u'll never get rid of them.u will just relay on their techs forever.cause u just dont have the know-how.TFX IMO is another S.Korea T-50 program.besides there is really a huge difference between producing F35 with assembling F35,and even more gap with designing F35~

u should know why china could achieve this while so many other countries cannot.just check this:in china,2015,there r more than 7,500,000 bachelor got their degrees，at least 1/3 of them are engineering bachelor.even if only 1% of them go into Aviation Industry，that means 20 thousands new blood.just imagine that.and i didnt mention the industry foundation and all the aviation experience,wind tunnel,super computer ,etc. china already have.

why say the truth, just say sth feeling good, let them burn some dozens of Billions $ to fullfil their self-importance

 

[That Guy]

I think rather than fifth gen projects and skiping to fifth generation fighters Pakistan needs to concentrate on the here and now IE how to deal with fivec hundred bvr equipped so30mki rafale mirage and mu29 with just 180 thunders and f16s

Keep in mind, PAF doesn't need to match IAF 1 to 1, or even have superior tech. All PAF needs is enough of a deterence, that IAF has to think twice before launching an air campaign.

The Russians put it best, 'you don't have to be good, you just have to be good enough.'

 

[cabatli_53]

why say the truth, just say sth feeling good, let them burn some dozens of Billions $ to fullfil their self-importance

TF-X is not a project commenced to make Turks feeling good. It is a serious billion $ industrial revolution project whose technology is accumulated from various Western-Turkish aerospace collaboration projects since years. From AA missiles to avionics, mission computers, AESA, EW sensors all are under development or their trial phase. Turkish engine industry is developing own turboshaft and turbojet engines at present. What we need is to have know-how to create a capable air superiority figter fuselage that BAE will assist. RR-Kale JV (%49-51) will design and develop a turbofan for TF-X. Turkey doesn't require RR blueprint but assistance to co-develop turbofans. We are not zero in this sector. Time will prove the reality indeed.

 

[帅的一匹]

-Turkey produces F-35 Mid body, avionics, landing gears, engine critical parts. Those technologies will directly be transferred to TF-X program.

-Turkey requires an impressive power/weight ratio for twin engine air superiority fighter so Euro fighter EJ-230 -(20000lbf) turbofan engines doesn't meet the thrust requirements of TF-X, so RR and Turkish engine industry will develop a more powerful turbofan to reach required performance parameters. I mean TF-X will have a strong and powerful propulsion plant.

- Pakistan operates two different block fighters from East-China and West-USA/France. Chinese fighters can be replaced with newer generation East block stealth fighters but I don't suppose Pakistan is going to want to be dependent on sole source for such a critical technological area so F-16 replacement will be done over a Western equivalent air superiority fighters-TF-X

-Turkey certainly wants Pakistan a part of TF-X fighter project so Officials are arranging meetings with Pakistani counterparts to inform about TF-X ambitious. China will be a major rival but If Turkey manages to pull brother Pakistan into TF-X fighter project in that period, I think Chance of FC-31 for Pakistan will be lower than today because Huge off-set and ToT deals for TF-X will completely tie Pakistan industry into TF-X program. That's what Turkish officials want to do strategically at present. BAE/RR background of TF-X whose intellectual and property rights solely belong to Turkish authority will be a delicious and capable fighter for the export markets.

I think PAF will go for FC31, they can't wait you until year 2030. If TFX looks promising after its maiden flight, PAF might consider it. We can't be sure about TFX until year 2023. The relationship between Turkey and NATO is very fragile nowadays, shit can happen anytime in the future. I highly suspect the future of TFX. If Chinese navy induct, let's say 500 FC31, the cost of FC31 will be much cheaper than TFX. BAE won't TOT you the key technology, all they do is let you assemble the CKD parts. I don't think PAF will give up the mature tech on J20 and go sharing risk with Turkey in totally uncertain TFX project.

TF-X is not a project commenced to make Turks feeling good. It is a serious billion $ industrial revolution project whose technology is accumulated from various Western-Turkish aerospace collaboration projects since years. From AA missiles to avionics, mission computers, AESA, EW sensors all are under development or their trial phase. Turkish engine industry is developing own turboshaft and turbojet engines at present. What we need is to have know-how to create a capable air superiority figter fuselage that BAE will assist. RR-Kale JV (%49-51) will design and develop a turbofan for TF-X. Turkey doesn't require RR blueprint but assistance to co-develop turbofans. We are not zero in this sector. Time will prove the reality indeed.

Hope you can be successful, prove me how capable Turkey is.

Japan is very struggling in designing a capable 5th gen fighter, although they can build delicate fighter like F2(enlarged version of latest F16). I think Japan is still way ahead of Turkey In many military frontiers.

Flying a 5th gen and design a new filth gen is totally two different concept.

It's not easy, see our Russian friends also get stuck in 5th gen design.

It need a profound study of basic science，billions investment, massive talents pool, complete aviation industry and infrastructure.

If all Tukey want to produce is just a OEM 5th gen fighter by BAE's blueprint, you can't compete with China in the cost and core tech transfer. This is a serious and important competition for PAF's order , so we won't compromise and will bring out the best to compete. We must seize the order in any cost.

 

[Leclan]

if Pakistan going for FC31 now,it would certainly get more parts in this program,with farely good discount and tech transfer as ur identity is a partener,not a buyer.

but if Pakistan go for it in 10 years later with no up-front investment，while ,even if there is a discount which could happen as we are brothers,the price will be like a real market price.

 

[帅的一匹]

if Pakistan going for FC31 now,it would certainly get more parts in this program,with farely good discount and tech transfer as ur identity is a partener,not a buyer.

but if Pakistan go for it in 10 years later with no up-front investment，while ,even if there is a discount which could happen as we are brothers,the price will be like a real market price.

Who knows, maybe PAF had joined the partnership as of now. They just prefer to keep it low down.

 

[Leclan]

Believe it or not, if they design, produce and maintain the engine in Turkey/with Kale Group, they definitely will share large amounts of highly critical knowhow. Otherwise it is simply not possible to meet fundamental contractual obligations.

However, we won't be able to produce these engines on our own without components being directly imported from the UK (-> means no ToT for certain parts). To be quite candid with you, this is still far, far more than Americans, Europeans, South Koreans or Japanese were offering to us. (I ❤ Brexit)

But to be more accurate, a full scale ToT was never a necessary condition for the Turks. The Turkish officials made clear what they really demand from the British partners during the negotiations. For Ankara, it is crucial to have the rights to (re-)export the TFX fighter jet to other countries, including Pakistan, if political decision makers in Ankara want to. This was the decisive factor for choosing UK as a development partner in the first place. This is why TFX is not only a military program but also an investment in our future diplomatic capabilities.

com'on. we both know the best aviation industy exists in only US/Russia/UK/France,and now CN is coming after. other countries r jokes.

 

[帅的一匹]

I prefer PAF to be a partner than just a buyer, cause Pakistan is our closest ally.

Pakistan doesn't need to invest a lot, they will share all the benefits as stake-holder.