Pakistan is a distinct land, historically almost always seperate from India

[ahussains]

SORY IF I HERT ANY BODY BUT REALITY IS THIS THAT NONE OF YOU HAS LOOK AT PAST 1000 YRS. WHEN MUSLIMS CAME TO THIS LAND IT WAS UNDER DIFFERENT RAJAA'S HAVING THIER OWN KINGDOM. MUSLIMS UNIT THIS LAND AND ESTABLISH CENTRALIZED GOVT. DURING MUGHAL'S ERA ALL HINDUS AND MUSLIMS LIVE ALONG AND THERE WAS NO DISCRIMINATION IN ANY FIELD OF LIFE EXEPT RELIGION.
PRIORITY WAS GIVEN TO TALLENT AS YOU CAN SEE MANY HINDUS WERE IN MUGHAL'S CABNET.
AFTER 1700 EAST INDIA COMPANY ESTABLISH ITS BUSINESS IN THIS SUB-CONTINENT AND GAIN POWER BY DIVIDING THE PEOPLES ON RELIGION BASIS.
IN 1857 FREEDOM FIGHT WAS BROUGHT BY BOTH MUSLIMS AND HINDUS AND LOST MANY OF THIER LEADERSHIP. AFTER THAT RESHMI RUMAAL TEHREEK WAS BOUGHT BY MUSLIMS AND AFTERWARDS JUWAR LAL NEHRU ALSO JOINED THAT.

THE MAIN THING IS TO CONSIDER EVERY ONE HUMAN NOT LESS THAN OR MORE THAN YOURSELF. IF YOU STUDY MUSLIMS HISTORY THEY ALWAYS FOUGHT AGAINST UNGUSTICE AND CRUEL LEADERSHIP.
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) LETTER TO DIFFERNT KINGS ARE GREAT EXAMPLE OF THIS.

I SUGGUES YOU ALL TO READ THE BOOK COMPANY KI HAQOOMAT WRITTEN BY BARI ALEEG.

That is intresting but our valuse and clutre are diffrent with each other we live together many 100 years in Subcontinat and we are always call it HINDUSTAN .... there is no place for us thats why the strugle began ..

 

[Flintlock]

Only Punjabis have have similar language with Indian Punjabis. Cultural...I doubt that.
Urdu is spoken all over Pakistan, its not the native language of Punjab or Sindh. It was developed by the Muslim invaders, so it belongs to Pakistan as a whole.

Indians are not one group of people so they cant even be compared to another group.

About Urdu...the number of urdu speakers in India is far greater than those in Pakistan. Also, Urdu was the language of the Delhi Sultanate and the Nawabs of Lucknow...basically it is the language of Indian Muslims...
Hindi movies, till very recently, were mainly written in Urdu/Hindustani.

As far as similarities between india and pakistani are concerned, it is entirely subjective, twin brothers can find plenty of differences between themselves if they want to. On the other hand, completely disparate people can find similarities and reconcile.
India and Pakistan, imo, have far more similarities than differences. Now it entirely depends on your agenda whether you want to highlight the similarities or the differences.

 

[niaz]

I beg to differ from the Hon Stealth Assassin.There are very few Urdu speakers left in India. Only one state ( Kashmir) has Urdu as official language. I have visited Delhi and Agra, they could tell the minute I started speaking Urdu that I was from Pakistan.

Even in the city of Delhi; home of Urdu Mualla ( high Urdu), even the educated calsses mixe up J & Z, don't pronounce 'KH' properly and also many pronounce 'Ph' as 'f'. My guide at the Taj, a native of Agra kept pronouncing Mumtaz as Mumtaaj. IMO there are some Urdu speakers still left in India but most migrated to Pakistan in 1947.

Language in UP is Hindi written in Devanagri script, I couldnot read the prices in Agra sweet shops ( Petha being famous, I wanted to but some), my chauffeur came to my rescue when he swore at the shop keeper as to why he was asking three times the price of what was displayed on the board in the shop. All road signs were also in Hindi and therefore illegible to me.

Official language of Delhi Sultanate was Persian not Urdu. Urdu became popular in the late Moghul/ early Raj era. Urdu was associated with the muslims and therefore deliberately put down wherever BJP ruled. Urdu is now distinctly a Pakistani language. Urdu poets and speakers in India still exist, but few and far between. After the death of Khumaar Barabankawi, no Urdu poet of the first grade is left in India.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I beg to differ from the Hon Stealth Assassin.There are very few Urdu speakers left in India. Only one state ( Kashmir) has Urdu as official language. I have visited Delhi and Agra, they could tell the minute I started speaking Urdu that I was from Pakistan.

Even in the city of Delhi; home of Urdu Mualla ( high Urdu), even the educated calsses mixe up J & Z, don't pronounce 'KH' properly and also many pronounce 'Ph' as 'f'. My guide at the Taj, a native of Agra kept pronouncing Mumtaz as Mumtaaj. IMO there are some Urdu speakers still left in India but most migrated to Pakistan in 1947.

Language in UP is Hindi written in Devanagri script, I couldnot read the prices in Agra sweet shops ( Petha being famous, I wanted to but some), my chauffeur came to my rescue when he swore at the shop keeper as to why he was asking three times the price of what was displayed on the board in the shop. All road signs were also in Hindi and therefore illegible to me.

Official language of Delhi Sultanate was Persian not Urdu. Urdu became popular in the late Moghul/ early Raj era. Urdu was associated with the muslims and therefore deliberately put down wherever BJP ruled. Urdu is now distinctly a Pakistani language. Urdu poets and speakers in India still exist, but few and far between. After the death of Khumaar Barabankawi, no Urdu poet of the first grade is left in India.

Agree with you completely..

 

[Flintlock]

Niaz, Urdu has always been the language of the military and the elite. It was never the language of the masses. Moreover, Hindi being the official language is encouraged by the government. However, incase you doubt the extent of urdu usage in India, a look at the urdu press should be interesting:



To-day Urdu journalism occupies the third largest position in India after Hindi and English. Urdu papers are brought out in 15 States and 2 union territories of India. With a total of 2670 publications it is the third largest numerical group after Hindi and English. It occupies the second position at all-India level for dailies - there are 495 Urdu dailies. With these impressive figures the Urdu Press can become a powerful media in the next millennium. During the last two decades Urdu press showed a phenomenal increase according to official statistics. The rate of growth is higher than that of the Indian dailies in all languages put together.

Press Information Bureau

There were almost 50 million urdu speakers in India in 1999, and this figure is probably comfortably above 50 million in 2007.

Ethnologue report for India

Five to six years of NDA rule doesn't mean that urdu speakers simply vanish off the face of India. As you can see, urdu has been flourishing and the number of urdu readers occupies the 3rd position after hindi and english. Perhaps they don't speak the "high" or "pure" urdu, but that is of little consequence, considering that even hindi is fragmented into several hundred regional dialects.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Niaz, Urdu has always been the language of the military and the elite. It was never the language of the masses. Moreover, Hindi being the official language is encouraged by the government. However, incase you doubt the extent of urdu usage in India, a look at the urdu press should be interesting:



To-day Urdu journalism occupies the third largest position in India after Hindi and English. Urdu papers are brought out in 15 States and 2 union territories of India. With a total of 2670 publications it is the third largest numerical group after Hindi and English. It occupies the second position at all-India level for dailies - there are 495 Urdu dailies. With these impressive figures the Urdu Press can become a powerful media in the next millennium. During the last two decades Urdu press showed a phenomenal increase according to official statistics. The rate of growth is higher than that of the Indian dailies in all languages put together.

Press Information Bureau

There were almost 50 million urdu speakers in India in 1999, and this figure is probably comfortably above 50 million in 2007.

Ethnologue report for India

Five to six years of NDA rule doesn't mean that urdu speakers simply vanish off the face of India. As you can see, urdu has been flourishing and the number of urdu readers occupies the 3rd position after hindi and english. Perhaps they don't speak the "high" or "pure" urdu, but that is of little consequence, considering that even hindi is fragmented into several hundred regional dialects.

Understanding of Urdu is more than its usage in India... Hindi and english are the mainly used languages among people of different states.

 

[Awaaz]

Understanding of Urdu is more than its usage in India... Hindi and english are the mainly used languages among people of different states.

Look all i know is that this is the belief of me and most pushtoon people, from riven roxannae to river jehlum is the land of pushtoons and various other groups anything beyond river jehlum was what we call hindustan. I mean most pakistanis of all ethnic group dont have much in common with india, while india does have some common cukture but that dowb to yeards of being conqered and living under the rule of the mughals and various others groups that invaded from pakistan.

How can you say an indian gujrati or the untochable has anything is common with fairskinned pushtoo speaking pushtoon?.

India is a mongrel country that has no purity and will never have any purity, only good indian is a dead indian as they are always trying to create problems for pakistan and its people.

 

[Malang]

I beg to differ from the Hon Stealth Assassin.There are very few Urdu speakers left in India. Only one state ( Kashmir) has Urdu as official language. I have visited Delhi and Agra, they could tell the minute I started speaking Urdu that I was from Pakistan.

Hello Niaz,


I have to agree with you that Urdu as a street language is mostly not visible in Delhi (from my experience) at the same time I have seen quite a few people from the 40's and 50's Speak and write it though not publicly.


Muslims of India exclusively talk in Urdu though the grade/sophistication increases with the increase in income level as what I have been told and there are many avid admirers of Urdu works still in India.


I think after the partition, govts have tried to bring about differences in the, but personally to me they are mutually intelligible.

Even in the city of Delhi; home of Urdu Mualla ( high Urdu), even the educated calsses mixe up J & Z, don't pronounce 'KH' properly and also many pronounce 'Ph' as 'f'. My guide at the Taj, a native of Agra kept pronouncing Mumtaz as Mumtaaj. IMO there are some Urdu speakers still left in India but most migrated to Pakistan in 1947.

Peculiarly I have noticed z and j mix up, my native help who is from my UP has trouble pronouncing Z but most people in my office our able to pronounce my name which has a Z in it.

Language in UP is Hindi written in Devanagri script, I couldnot read the prices in Agra sweet shops ( Petha being famous, I wanted to but some), my chauffeur came to my rescue when he swore at the shop keeper as to why he was asking three times the price of what was displayed on the board in the shop. All road signs were also in Hindi and therefore illegible to me.

I think many signs these day in Delhi atleast are written in English,Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi.

Official language of Delhi Sultanate was Persian not Urdu. Urdu became popular in the late Moghul/ early Raj era. Urdu was associated with the muslims and therefore deliberately put down wherever BJP ruled. Urdu is now distinctly a Pakistani language. Urdu poets and speakers in India still exist, but few and far between. After the death of Khumaar Barabankawi, no Urdu poet of the first grade is left in India.

I have to differ here, Urdu was deliberately put down by the non-muslim Hindus because Urdu was considered more of a Muslim tongue and they wanted to have nothing to do with it. Something like what happened to the German-Americans(biggest ethnic group of America) during ww2 after which the use of German and German nomenclature disappeared overnight.


This is to be blamed not on BJP since they have been in power only recently that too in a co-alition. This is the work of adminstration, citizens and govt collectively and now that the insecurities/acrimonies have disappeared I don't think there is any effort to hide or discourage use of Urdu.


As Stealth Assassin posted out there is a revival of Urdu language in India though not at the street level but amongst the educated.

Understanding of Urdu is more than its usage in India... Hindi and english are the mainly used languages among people of different states.

Hindi is not very widely spoken in India, English is spoken only amongst the educated. If I am not wrong English was added to the list of languages because non-Hindi speakers resented use of Hindi. Though with lil bit of English, sign language and Hindi and spotting a helpful person you can manage albeit challengingly(happened in Ladakh).


Malang

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

India is a mongrel country that has no purity and will never have any purity, only good indian is a dead indian as they are always trying to create problems for pakistan and its people.

Do you see a indian in me?..

 

[Malang]

Look all i know is that this is the belief of me and most pushtoon people, from riven roxannae to river jehlum is the land of pushtoons and various other groups anything beyond river jehlum was what we call hindustan. I mean most pakistanis of all ethnic group dont have much in common with india, while india does have some common cukture but that dowb to yeards of being conqered and living under the rule of the mughals and various others groups that invaded from pakistan.

How can you say an indian gujrati or the untochable has anything is common with fairskinned pushtoo speaking pushtoon?.

India is a mongrel country that has no purity and will never have any purity, only good indian is a dead indian as they are always trying to create problems for pakistan and its people.

Hello Awaaz,

Aren't we angry today?

Malang

 

[Logic note]

Originally posted by Awaz
Look all i know is that this is the belief of me and most pushtoon people, from riven roxannae to river jehlum is the land of pushtoons and various other groups anything beyond river jehlum was what we call hindustan. I mean most pakistanis of all ethnic group dont have much in common with india, while india does have some common cukture but that dowb to yeards of being conqered and living under the rule of the mughals and various others groups that invaded from pakistan.

How can you say an indian gujrati or the untochable has anything is common with fairskinned pushtoo speaking pushtoon?.

India is a mongrel country that has no purity and will never have any purity, only good indian is a dead indian as they are always trying to create problems for pakistan and its people.

No dear friend , Its Pakistani themselves creating problem for their own ppl and Nation.
Look at back at your history and even your present.

Stop blaming India for everything .. Too much hatred blinds you

 

[Flintlock]

Look all i know is that this is the belief of me and most pushtoon people, from riven roxannae to river jehlum is the land of pushtoons and various other groups anything beyond river jehlum was what we call hindustan. I mean most pakistanis of all ethnic group dont have much in common with india, while india does have some common cukture but that dowb to yeards of being conqered and living under the rule of the mughals and various others groups that invaded from pakistan.

How can you say an indian gujrati or the untochable has anything is common with fairskinned pushtoo speaking pushtoon?.

India is a mongrel country that has no purity and will never have any purity, only good indian is a dead indian as they are always trying to create problems for pakistan and its people.

What exactly do you mean by purity?

 

[Flintlock]

I have to differ here, Urdu was deliberately put down by the non-muslim Hindus because Urdu was considered more of a Muslim tongue and they wanted to have nothing to do with it. Something like what happened to the German-Americans(biggest ethnic group of America) during ww2 after which the use of German and German nomenclature disappeared overnight.

Malang, I'm quite sure Urdu was not under any threat during the NDA years. You are underestimating the power of indian bureaucracy, try looking up the website of the national council for the promotion of urdu:

National Council for Promotion of Urdu Language

This is to be blamed not on BJP since they have been in power only recently that too in a co-alition. This is the work of adminstration, citizens and govt collectively and now that the insecurities/acrimonies have disappeared I don't think there is any effort to hide or discourage use of Urdu.

BJP, although in power, didn't implement any hindutva policies on a large scale, simply because they would never get the support to do so. Even today, it is simply impossible to implement hindutva all over india...there are too many disparities.

Even if a purely BJP govt. does win an election, they cannot gag the urdu press...rest assured there is no threat to urdu in india.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Look all i know is that this is the belief of me and most pushtoon people, from riven roxannae to river jehlum is the land of pushtoons and various other groups anything beyond river jehlum was what we call hindustan. I mean most pakistanis of all ethnic group dont have much in common with india, while india does have some common cukture but that dowb to yeards of being conqered and living under the rule of the mughals and various others groups that invaded from pakistan.

How can you say an indian gujrati or the untochable has anything is common with fairskinned pushtoo speaking pushtoon?.

India is a mongrel country that has no purity and will never have any purity, only good indian is a dead indian as they are always trying to create problems for pakistan and its people.

Only an ill informed, ill read and bigoted person would have views as yours.

If I may remind you, your very existence as a country was formulated by what you claim to be a mongrel, namely Jinnah, who by the way was a Gujarati Moslem!

Would you be kind to reconcile and not insult the Qaid, the person whose munificence has given you the identity that you seem to so proudly acclaim and at the same time who you are denigrating!

As far as Pathans are concerned, enough has been said on this forum! Do check up the opinions aired!

YOu do disservice to the Qaid and you are most insulting to him.

Even the BJP leader Advani has praised the Qaid! And you go insulting him!


Are you a Pakistani or a Pathan who has fled Afghanistan and taken refuge?

If so, you are insulting the country that has given you a shelter over your bare head!

Sir, learn to be grateful!

And not swell your chest with false arrogance!

Jinnah was born as Muhammmad Ali Jinnah in Wazir Mansion, Karachi, Sindh—then a province of the Bombay Presidency of British India. Although his earliest school records were to state that he was born on October 20, 1875, he himself later in life would give December 25, 1876 as his official date of birth. Jinnah was the eldest of seven children born to Mithibai and Jinnahbhai Poonja. His father, Jinnahbhai (1857–1901), was a prosperous Gujarati merchant who had moved to Sindh from Kathiawar, Gujarat shortly before Jinnah's birth. His grandfather was Poonja Meghji , a Bhatia from Paneli village in Gondal state in Kathiawar. The family had moved there Sahiwal near Multan. Some sources suggest that Jinnah's ancestors were Hindu Rajputs from Rajasthan, India.

 

[Malang]

Malang, I'm quite sure Urdu was not under any threat during the NDA years. You are underestimating the power of indian bureaucracy, try looking up the website of the national council for the promotion of urdu:

National Council for Promotion of Urdu Language

Hello Stealth Assassin,

I meant the same though the use of Urdu has gone down because of "patriotism" of people. A fine read would be the division of Punjab into Hindu and Sikh factions on the basis of language which basically was because Hindus identified Hindi as mother tongue, Sikhs as Punjabi though urban communties of both exclusively spoke in Urdu and the rural counterparts spoke in Punjabi.

Further as far as I know Urdu is not compulsorily taught in school curriculum therefore its use had to go down which no one seemed to be complaining about as no one really feels strongly with out Urdu.

they cannot gag the urdu press...rest assured there is no threat to urdu in india.

I basically said the same thing again but to add to it, today Urdu doesnot have the elite tag attached to it as in yore therefore youth are not really into Urdu nor will someone yearn to learn Urdu's arabic script if they have not been taught in school unless they have intense motivation.


Malang