Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[syed_yusuf]

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Further PN F22 frigates also virtually so far have limited air defense capabilities especially against supersonic Missiles.

F22 limited air defenses against supersonic anti ship missiles could be enhanced by adding multiple (4) 23 cell FL-3000N in addition to CIWS 730 and FM-90N. not a big investment.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

And we developed anti ship variant of Babur,AZB,Zarb etc for the heck of it?

Pak is almost done with resurrecting all the phrases that used to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies!!!!!

 

[khanasifm]

F22 limited air defenses against supersonic anti ship missiles could be enhanced by adding multiple (4) 23 cell FL-3000N in addition to CIWS 730 and FM-90N. not a big investment.

Ships operate in pair or in proximity to provide cover for each other multiple line of defense

Looks like 054 f22 and Turkish ship will operate in flotilla providing each others cover so no need to put everything in every ship

Basic role for Tirkish ship is anti sub f22 anti surface/sub and 054 true multiple role plus long range air defense

Falkland island operation is a good example of multi layer defense but technology has evolved since then

Lastly no where does it say fm-90 cannot intercept supersonic Anti ship missile which exists since 80s

F22 is first pn true ship which provide anti ship sub and air capability older ship like British ships still have single role capability even though tonnage wise they may be larger then f22p

Adding additional sam even very short range on F22p will address the small number of sams 8 only on it

 

[Tank131]

What are the alternatives to the US ESSM available in Turkey, China etc. for these frigates? Can the Turkish Hisar be quadpacked in the same manner?

There has been no indication that Hisar will be quad-packable. And the Hisar A only has 15km range whereas Hisar O only has 25km range. I dont think they are (at this point) viable solutions for I-class. As for what alternatives exist; as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out, the best european alternatives are Sea Ceptor (CAMM) which can be quadpacked and has been tested out to 60km. The other option is Aster 15 but it is a single packed missile. Umkhonto-IR (neither the 35km IR-ER nor the 60km R are ready for deployment) is also out there from south Africa but its likely single pack with range currently is 20km. Then there is the KSAAM from S. korea which is quad packable and 40km. Im not sure if any of these will actually be options though in the current climate.

 

[syed_yusuf]

some how i feel south Africa but its likely single pack with range currently is 20km is the only option for turkish corvettes for PN anti air missile solution. SSM have many options.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There has been no indication that Hisar will be quad-packable. And the Hisar A only has 15km range whereas Hisar O only has 25km range. I dont think they are (at this point) viable solutions for I-class. As for what alternatives exist; as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out, the best european alternatives are Sea Ceptor (CAMM) which can be quadpacked and has been tested out to 60km. The other option is Aster 15 but it is a single packed missile. Umkhonto-IR (neither the 35km IR-ER nor the 60km R are ready for deployment) is also out there from south Africa but its likely single pack with range currently is 20km. Then there is the KSAAM from S. korea which is quad packable and 40km. Im not sure if any of these will actually be options though in the current climate.

Yep the Umkhonto IR (20 km) isn't as good in range and compactness as the CAMM, but it's probably much, much cheaper. Algeria fitted two MEKO A-200ANs - i.e. 32 VLS cells each - with the Umkhonto IR for a total of $67 m incl. missiles, FCS, integration, etc.

If each I-Class frigate has 16 cells, then fitting the 4 of them could be a total of $75 to $100 m, tops. In fact, with a certain subsystem and weapons selection (i.e. Saab radars, Denel SAM, Turkish AShM and ASW), the I-Class can theoretically be had for a relatively decent price.

 

[monitor]

Mk 41 vertical launch system

The MK 41 Vertical Launching System (VLS) is the worldwide standard in shipborne missile launching systems. Under the guidance of the US Navy, Martin Marietta performs the design, development, production, and field support that make the battle-proven VLS the most advanced shipborne missile launching system in the world. The Mk 41 VLS simultaneously supports multiple warfighting capabilities, including antiair warfare, antisubmarine warfare, ship self-defense, strike warfare, and antisurface warfare.

The Vertical Launching System (VLS) Mk 41 is a canister launching system which provides a rapid-fire launch capability against hostile threats. The missile launcher consists of a single eight-cell missile module, capable of launching SEASPARROW missiles used against hostile aircraft, missiles and surface units. Primary units of the VLS are two Launch Control Units, one 8-Cell Module, one 8-Cell System Module, a Remote Launch Enable Panel and a Status Panel.

“quad pack” launcher (Mk-41 VLS)
HTMS Naresuan (421) “quad pack” launcher being loaded – Image: thaidefense-news.blogspot.gr

The Launch Control Units receive launch orders from the Multi-Function Computer Plant (MFCP). In response to the orders, the Launch Control Units select and issue prelaunch and launch commands to the selected missile in the VLS launcher. During normal VLS operations, each Launch Control Unit controls half of the Launch Sequencers in the launcher. Either Launch Control Unit can be ordered by the MFCP where one Launch Control Unit is offline and the other Launch Control Unit assumes control of all Launch Sequencers in the launcher.

HTMS Naresuan (421) 8-Cell Module – Image: thaidefense-news.blogspot.gr
The 8-Cell Module consists of an upright structure that provides vertical storage space for eight missile canisters. A deck and hatch assembly at the top of the module protects the missile canisters during storage and the hatches open to permit missile launches. The plenum and uptake structure capture and vent missile exhaust gases vertically up through the module to the atmosphere through the uptake hatch. Electronic equipment mounted on the 8-Cell Module monitors the stored missile canisters and the module components and assists in launching the missiles.

Sea Sparrow and Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSMs)

RIM-162 ESSM was developed by the U.S. Navy in cooperation with an international consortium of other NATO partners plus Australia. ESSM is a short-range, semi-active homing missile that makes flight corrections via radar and midcourse data uplinks. The missile provides reliable ship self-defense capability against agile, high-speed, low-altitude anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs), low velocity air threats (LVATs), such as helicopters, and high-speed, maneuverable surface threats. ESSM is integrated with a variety of U.S. and international launchers and combat systems across more than 10 different navies.

ESSM has an 8-inch diameter forebody that tapers to a 10-inch diameter rocket motor. The forebody includes a guidance section uses a radome-protected antenna for semi-active homing and attaches to an improved warhead section. A high-thrust, solid-propellant 10-inch diameter rocket motor provides high thrust for maneuverability with tail control via a Thrust Vector Controller (TVC).

ESSM’s effective tracking performance and agile kinematics result from S- and X-band midcourse uplinks, high average velocity and tail control, increased firepower through a vertical “quad pack” launcher (Mk-41 VLS), and greater lethality with a warhead designed for defeating hardened ASCMs.

Background:

ESSM is a cooperative effort among 10 of 12 NATO Sea Sparrow nations governed by a Production Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) and multinational work-share arrangement. In addition to the United States, ESSM Consortium Members include Australia, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, The Netherlands, Norway, Spain, and Turkey.

HTMS Naresuan (421) – Image: thaidefense-news.blogspot.grHTMS Naresuan (421) – Image: thaidefense-news.blogspot.gr
The first production ESSM was delivered in late 2002 to the U.S. Navy by Raytheon Missile Systems (RMS) and has been in full operational use in the U.S. since 2004. ESSM is fired from the Mk-29 trainable launcher, Mk-41 Vertical Launch System (VLS), Mk-57 VLS (DDG 1000), Mk-48 Guided Missile VLS (Canadian, Greece, Japan), and Mk-56 Dual Pack ESSM Launching System (Danish Navy) configurations by the U.S. Navy, NATO, and other Foreign Military Sales (FMS) customers. ESSM interfaces with the Aegis (DDG 51 and CG 47 classes), NSSMS (LHD and CVN classes), Ship Self-Defense System (LHA-6 and future CVN classes), Total Ship Computing Environment (DDG 1000), ANZAC (Royal Australian Navy), Dutch Configuration (various European Navies), FLEXFIRE (Danish Navy), and APAR (various European Navies) combat systems.

HTMS Naresuan (421) – Image: defense-studies.blogspot.gr
General Characteristics:
Primary Function: Surface-To-Air and Surface-To-Surface radar-guided missile.
Contractor: Raytheon Missile Systems, Tuscson, Ariz.
Date Deployed: 2004
Unit Cost: $787000 – $972000 depending on configuration
Propulsion: NAMMO-Raufoss, Alliant (solid fuel rocket)
Length: 12 feet (3,64 meters)
Diameter: 8 inches (20,3 cm) – 10 inches (25,4 cm)
Weight: 622 pounds (280 kilograms)
Speed: Mach 4+
Range: more than 27 nmi (more than 50 km)
Guidance System: Raytheon semi-active on continuous wave or interrupted continuous wave illumination
Warhead: Annular blast fragmentation warhead, 90 pounds (40,5 kg)

RIM-162 ESSM data Source seaforces.org

 

[cabatli_53]

There has been no indication that Hisar will be quad-packable. And the Hisar A only has 15km range whereas Hisar O only has 25km range. I dont think they are (at this point) viable solutions for I-class. As for what alternatives exist; as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out, the best european alternatives are Sea Ceptor (CAMM) which can be quadpacked and has been tested out to 60km. The other option is Aster 15 but it is a single packed missile. Umkhonto-IR (neither the 35km IR-ER nor the 60km R are ready for deployment) is also out there from south Africa but its likely single pack with range currently is 20km. Then there is the KSAAM from S. korea which is quad packable and 40km. Im not sure if any of these will actually be options though in the current climate.

You know Naval variants of Hisar family is on the way officially and I think They will be modified variant of current Hisar missiles with folding type fins. Hisar missiles characteristically designed longer Hisar-A(4m), Hisar-O(4,5m), ESSM-1/2(3,7m), Umkhonto-IR(3,32m), CAMM(3,2m), CAMM-ER(4,2m) but, relatively thinner (more or less same with CAMM series ESSM-1 (254mm), CAMM(166mm), CAMM-ER(190mm). I think this form enables Hisar missiles quad-packable on any naval platforms having MK-41 or equivalent VL tubes.

Additions, The range of hisar missiles are not that clear. Altitude performance of Hisar-A (~10-15km), Hisar-O(18+km), While the range of Hisar-O announced by SSM head Ismail Demir is 40+km which is way longer than brochure figures(25km).

 

[Tank131]

You know Naval variants of Hisar family is on the way officially and I think They will be modified variant of current Hisar missiles with folding type fins. Hisar missiles characteristically designed longer Hisar-A(4m), Hisar-O(4,5m), ESSM-1/2(3,7m), Umkhonto-IR(3,32m), CAMM(3,2m), CAMM-ER(4,2m) but, relatively thinner (more or less same with CAMM series ESSM-1 (254mm), CAMM(166mm), CAMM-ER(190mm). I think this form enables Hisar missiles quad-packable on any naval platforms having MK-41 or equivalent VL tubes.

Additions, The range of hisar missiles are not that clear. Altitude performance of Hisar-A (~10-15km), Hisar-O(18+km), While the range of Hisar-O announced by SSM head Ismail Demir is 40+km which is way longer than brochure figures(25km).

Good info, problem currently is everything is upnfor speculation. I have no doubt that the ranges could be longer than officially stated. Same is true for CAMM (officially 25km+ but according to Janes, has been successfully tested to >60km). Also there may be quad-packability. It would make sense given the push for domestication and the need that would leave to replace ESSM, BUT everything is a)speculation and b)still in the pipeline. Now if PN knew details of the missile that the public isnt privy to, maybe they wait for Hisar-O. If not, they go with a different missile. We still dont even know for 100% certainity whether the ships will be Ada or Milgem-g/I-class ships.

 

[syed_yusuf]

I believe it will be an upgraded version usually called meligem II

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I believe it will be an upgraded version usually called meligem II

There is also the CF-3500, which is clearly an enlarged MILGEM Ada.

 

[IblinI]

What are the alternatives to the US ESSM available in Turkey, China etc. for these frigates? Can the Turkish Hisar be quadpacked in the same manner?

Chinese ESSM quadpacked is under development,but that is all we know for now.

 

[Basel]

In current scenario PN is no more getting Harpoons so pretty unlikely we may see harpoons, the possibilities include mix of domestic ASHMs along with Atmaka or Chinese. No more US based weapons tech perhaps in short to medium term.



As per my understanding the five F21 class frigates/destroyers are not considered which have already passed their useful life so as soon as deliveries of these corvettes or Chinese frigates starts in near future then simultaneously the F21 frigates shall be retired or even before that. So PN is quite right in getting Turkish Mil gems and Chinese frigates as both shall provide different capabilities even with same gadgets.



Further PN F22 frigates also virtually so far have limited air defense capabilities especially against supersonic Missiles.

FM-90N can engage Supersonic missile at 6km if rapid detection, tracking and engagement is done by F-22P electronic systems.

Chinese ESSM quadpacked is under development,but that is all we know for now.

Is it DK-10 based SAM?

 

[Kamil_baku]

There is also the CF-3500, which is clearly an enlarged MILGEM Ada.
View attachment 455580 View attachment 455581

I think with this version, they can but 16 more cels in the middle back of the ship too...

 

[TOPGUN]

What is going on with the PN deal , looks all at full stop no progress ?