Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I know this is off topic , but what would happen to the falcon fleet ?

If the US decides to level sanctions, then it'd be like the 1990s in that the PAF will not have access to spare parts and will have to seek them via black market channels, reduce flying hours and/or cannibalize planes for parts. That said, the F-16A/Bs are on the older end, I think they'll reach 8,000 hours (i.e. the recommended service life) in the 2030s, during which the 5th-gen fighter should be a factor. The F-16C/Ds are a smaller fleet (18) and I think the PAF can sustain them using means under the table (e.g. black market).

However, the issue between the US and Pakistan right now is the CSF and FMF, which the US is now tying 100% to action against the so-called Haqqani network. Before, the US conditioned 50% of the funding to meeting targets to back the US occupation in Afghanistan (e.g. we saw the ramifications of that when Congress blocked FMF for the 8 F-16C/Ds). Now it's 100%. I don't think that has spread to actual arms purchases (with Pakistan's national funds) or sustaining existing systems. There is speculation of sanctions and actual strikes in Pakistan, but that would just be ridiculously stupid in that it'll put the feet of Pakistan's leaders - incl. generals - under the fire to respond, and things can escalate into "unknown unknowns" (quoting Rumsie) which the US will avoid.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

If the US decides to level sanctions, then it'd be like the 1990s in that the PAF will not have access to spare parts and will have to seek them via black market channels, reduce flying hours and/or cannibalize planes for parts. That said, the F-16A/Bs are on the older end, I think they'll reach 8,000 hours (i.e. the recommended service life) in the 2030s, during which the 5th-gen fighter should be a factor. The F-16C/Ds are a smaller fleet (18) and I think the PAF can sustain them using means under the table (e.g. black market).

However, the issue between the US and Pakistan right now is the CSF and FMF, which the US is now tying 100% to action against the so-called Haqqani network. Before, the US conditioned 50% of the funding to meeting targets to back the US occupation in Afghanistan (e.g. we saw the ramifications of that when Congress blocked FMF for the 8 F-16C/Ds). Now it's 100%. I don't think that has spread to actual arms purchases (with Pakistan's national funds) or sustaining existing systems. There is speculation of sanctions and actual strikes in Pakistan, but that would just be ridiculously stupid in that it'll put the feet of Pakistan's leaders - incl. generals - under the fire to respond, and things can escalate into "unknown unknowns" (quoting Rumsie) which the US will avoid.

In addition to the above, what will happen to falcon's "mission flights". PAF needs codes for mission flights.

There were news that Egypt A.F. could not fly missions because US refused to give them codes.

Any comment?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

In addition to the above, what will happen to falcon's "mission flights". PAF needs codes for mission flights.

There were news that Egypt A.F. could not fly missions because US refused to give them codes.

Any comment?

Honestly, I'm not sure about the codes and restrictions stuff (besides requiring that the Block-52+ not be stationed with Chinese planes). Still, if that were the case and the US decided to even stop the PAF from flying the F-16s, then more "unknown unknowns."

 

[Tank131]

The problem is if you are going to use mpt-33 as fast attack boat to deliver missiles, you have rely on your own radar unless you are defending the shore.

Imagine you wanna hit the target from 300km away. If you bring big ship with you to send you the coordinates of the opposite ship, you actually make the big ship a target. On the other hand, if their radar see it, they can also shot the missiles, why do we need mprt-33 then? Unless you dont use it for defence purposes of shore
On the other hand you make the ship vulnerable to submarine attacks too by going to the target which enemy submarines might hide and waiting for you to come.

Helicopters can not see too far compared to ship based radar.

Radar assistance doesn't need to necessarily come from land or a larger ship, it could easily come from an AWAC like ZDK-03 or Erieye through the datalink which is far more likely.

 

[Corsair255]

Today i had a conversation with one of my friends who is working in the defence industry and also inwolved in MILGEM project. What he told me that 3rd and 4th ship of the ADA class (Corvettes), most likely, will be going to KSA. As for PN, you guys going to have the I-Class version of the MILGEMs (Frigates). Don't ask me about the details nor i can verify it but, seems you guys going to get a, most probably, modified or a derivative of I-Class frigates of MILGEM family.

 

[cabatli_53]

Today i had a conversation with one of my friends who is working in the defence industry and also inwolved in MILGEM project. What he told me that 3rd and 4th ship of the ADA class (Corvettes), most likely, will be going to KSA. As for PN, you guys going to have the I-Class version of the MILGEMs (Frigates). Don't ask me about the details nor i can verify it but, seems you guys going to get a, most probably, modified or a derivative of I-Class frigates of MILGEM family.

They are going to be a strategic asset in the hands of Pakistani brothers, having own advanced protection capabilities against aerial and underwater threats...

 

[Tank131]

Today i had a conversation with one of my friends who is working in the defence industry and also inwolved in MILGEM project. What he told me that 3rd and 4th ship of the ADA class (Corvettes), most likely, will be going to KSA. As for PN, you guys going to have the I-Class version of the MILGEMs (Frigates). Don't ask me about the details nor i can verify it but, seems you guys going to get a, most probably, modified or a derivative of I-Class frigates of MILGEM family.

If this is true then it is great news for PN. The I-class (Milgem-G) is a far more capable vessel capable of fielding 16-64 medium range missiles (depending in single or quad-packed). The only questions left would be which missile (as Pakistan is not likely to be able to get ESSM and RAM II). Would PN substitute FL-3000N for RAM and HQ-16 or DK-10 for ESSM? Also, if they are infact getting Milgem-G, why then get Type 054A?

 

[monitor]

If this is true then it is great news for PN. The I-class (Milgem-G) is a far more capable vessel capable of fielding 16-64 medium range missiles (depending in single or quad-packed). The only questions left would be which missile (as Pakistan is not likely to be able to get ESSM and RAM II). Would PN substitute FL-3000N for RAM and HQ-16 or DK-10 for ESSM? Also, if they are infact getting Milgem-G, why then get Type 054A?

Probably Pakistan wants to US's Chinese and western weapons . In Type 54A Chinese anti ship missile would be use in I class frigate either Turkish Atmaka or Harpon will be use.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If this is true then it is great news for PN. The I-class (Milgem-G) is a far more capable vessel capable of fielding 16-64 medium range missiles (depending in single or quad-packed). The only questions left would be which missile (as Pakistan is not likely to be able to get ESSM and RAM II). Would PN substitute FL-3000N for RAM and HQ-16 or DK-10 for ESSM? Also, if they are infact getting Milgem-G, why then get Type 054A?

If the I-Class is indeed coming, then I suppose the sensor and weapons suite could come from Europe. Pakistan has good ties with MBDA Italy and Leonardo, which can work together to produce a complete AShW, ASW and AAW suite (with the latter using the Sea Ceptor or Aster-15). Alternatively, Pakistan can look at a relatively lower-cost approach with Turkish AShW and ASW plus South African AAW.

As for the Type 054A, I'd like to that in the long-term, it'll eventually be equipped with the CM-302 supersonic-cruising AShM and, via VLS, the Babur LACM and a long-range SAM.

 

[Corsair255]

If this is true then it is great news for PN. The I-class (Milgem-G) is a far more capable vessel capable of fielding 16-64 medium range missiles (depending in single or quad-packed). The only questions left would be which missile (as Pakistan is not likely to be able to get ESSM and RAM II). Would PN substitute FL-3000N for RAM and HQ-16 or DK-10 for ESSM? Also, if they are infact getting Milgem-G, why then get Type 054A?

In Turkish configuration of I-Class, it's envisaged to have a total of 64 qty. of ESSM Block-I and/or Block-II. This is at least for the beginning... In the later stages of the project, this can be replaced by an equivalent of a domestic Turkish G/M.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

It looks very close to sign a contract for these ships.

 

[cabatli_53]

Maybe, 16 cell tubes seem less on a 110m warship when they are compared with bigger vessels' firepower but The number of vertical launch tubes on warships are considered something like an ultimate protection capability in paralel to number of tubes but It is actually not that important as long as radars can not respond fast enough to track multiple enemy targets precisiously to guide ready missile on cells. 16 cell tubes would have 64 ESSM-1/2 or equivalent. If you have 4 of I class, It means 64x4=256 air defence missiles against valuable enemy aerial threats which is a perfect match I think...

 

[CHI RULES]

Probably Pakistan wants to US's Chinese and western weapons . In Type 54A Chinese anti ship missile would be use in I class frigate either Turkish Atmaka or Harpon will be use.

In current scenario PN is no more getting Harpoons so pretty unlikely we may see harpoons, the possibilities include mix of domestic ASHMs along with Atmaka or Chinese. No more US based weapons tech perhaps in short to medium term.

If this is true then it is great news for PN. The I-class (Milgem-G) is a far more capable vessel capable of fielding 16-64 medium range missiles (depending in single or quad-packed). The only questions left would be which missile (as Pakistan is not likely to be able to get ESSM and RAM II). Would PN substitute FL-3000N for RAM and HQ-16 or DK-10 for ESSM? Also, if they are infact getting Milgem-G, why then get Type 054A?

As per my understanding the five F21 class frigates/destroyers are not considered which have already passed their useful life so as soon as deliveries of these corvettes or Chinese frigates starts in near future then simultaneously the F21 frigates shall be retired or even before that. So PN is quite right in getting Turkish Mil gems and Chinese frigates as both shall provide different capabilities even with same gadgets.

In current scenario PN is no more getting Harpoons so pretty unlikely we may see harpoons, the possibilities include mix of domestic ASHMs along with Atmaka or Chinese. No more US based weapons tech perhaps in short to medium term.



As per my understanding the five F21 class frigates/destroyers are not considered which have already passed their useful life so as soon as deliveries of these corvettes or Chinese frigates starts in near future then simultaneously the F21 frigates shall be retired or even before that. So PN is quite right in getting Turkish Mil gems and Chinese frigates as both shall provide different capabilities even with same gadgets.

Further PN F22 frigates also virtually so far have limited air defense capabilities especially against supersonic Missiles.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Maybe, 16 cell tubes seem less on a 110m warship when they are compared with bigger vessels' firepower but The number of vertical launch tubes on warships are considered something like an ultimate protection capability in paralel to number of tubes but It is actually not that important as long as radars can not respond fast enough to track multiple enemy targets precisiously to guide ready missile on cells. 16 cell tubes would have 64 ESSM-1/2 or equivalent. If you have 4 of I class, It means 64x4=256 air defence missiles against valuable enemy aerial threats which is a perfect match I think...

What are the alternatives to the US ESSM available in Turkey, China etc. for these frigates? Can the Turkish Hisar be quadpacked in the same manner?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Probably Pakistan wants to US's Chinese and western weapons . In Type 54A Chinese anti ship missile would be use in I class frigate either Turkish Atmaka or Harpon will be use.

And we developed anti ship variant of Babur,AZB,Zarb etc for the heck of it?