Pakistan in Peril

[keeninterest]

nice read that article was, and it was nice to see how some people are ready for some candid admissions even though their own country men despise them to the core. on a similar note i came acoss something similar in an interview that was shocking and thrilling for me last night and i thought it was worth sharing with the other side of audience who would not have see that particular telecast.

i heard kusum mohsin (wife of najam sethi - friday times, daily times) and asma jahangir on lok sabha channel last night and have to say these women have some guts, and what guts man. some pure plain talking they did, two women who were absolutely forth coming on the mumbai tragedy, right from accepting kasab being a pakistani to probably all 10 terrorists being pakistani to probably isi being behind these attacks, man i never thought they could have gone to that extent in accepting all the wrong doings of their establishment, but nice to see such voices still exist there in pakistan. kusum mohsin went to the extent of saying how they never differentiated between the taliban or the LeT or the JeM but something that was so conveniently done by mushraff in his hey days as a dictator as he saw them doing nothing wrong when she had an opportunity to catch up with him, and some thing she termed as cancer in the pakistani society. then came the statement that they are happy atleast now the pakistan government is trying not to live in a state of denial, but also came the sad submission of how the strings were being pulled by some one else but all was being shown as a creation of the present pakistani government. wow man, had all this plain talking been done by the government of pakistan from day one, things would have been a lot better than what they have been today between india and pakistan.

kudos to such voices in pakistan, and my hope is that these sane voices make to the forefront and run the real show in islamabad. as i said in the beginning i am shocked and the same time thrilled, shocked because i thought such voices were always suppressed in pakistan and thrilled for these voices show us hope for a better future for pakistan, and for pakistan india relations. but the sad part of the story was when asma jahangir said that they are seen as not so patriot in their own country, but i am hopeful the times will change, or i wish the times do change.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

While I have a lot of respect for Kusum Mohsin ( It thought it was Jugnu Mohsin), the above just sounds like two women sitting around gossiping.

The ISI is blamed for pretty much everythign, even in Pakistan, and these two have never shied away from blaming it. Despite evidence to the contrary, they still voice conspiracy theories of, 'ISI is pulling strings from behind the scenes'.

More than anythign their interview is a sad reflection of the South Aisan, and especially Pakistani, trait of finding conspiracies everywhere to explain shortcomings. Its not teh Taliban beating at the gates and a civilian government's ineptitude and corruption, no that would never be possible.

Instead it is the "ISI bogeyman" and some 'hidden force' pulling strings behind the scene. You may find this sort of analysis comforting becasue it feeds into the bias, propaganda and conspiracy theories fed to you in India. However, for me it is a sad reminder of how people are distracted by the media from focusing on the real issues by creating these conspiracy theories.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its the terrorists from Pakistan that conciously target civilians, not IA. Your posts are getting more ridiculous by the minute.

International human rights organizations woudl beg to differ from your argument - the IA has indeed deliberately targeted innocents.

And I see that you quite disgustingly chose to not address a single point in Kasrkins post about Jihad, going off on your own tirade.

 

[suresh_]

While I have a lot of respect for Kusum Mohsin ( It thought it was Jugnu Mohsin), the above just sounds like two women sitting around gossiping.

The ISI is blamed for pretty much everythign, even in Pakistan, and these two have never shied away from blaming it. Despite evidence to the contrary, they still voice conspiracy theories of, 'ISI is pulling strings from behind the scenes'.

More than anythign their interview is a sad reflection of the South Aisan, and especially Pakistani, trait of finding conspiracies everywhere to explain shortcomings. Its not teh Taliban beating at the gates and a civilian government's ineptitude and corruption, no that would never be possible.

Instead it is the "ISI bogeyman" and some 'hidden force' pulling strings behind the scene. You may find this sort of analysis comforting becasue it feeds into the bias, propaganda and conspiracy theories fed to you in India. However, for me it is a sad reminder of how people are distracted by the media from focusing on the real issues by creating these conspiracy theories.

if indian raise the 'ISI bogeyman', then they have been fed 'bias, propaganda and conspiracy theories', if pakistanis raise it they are just 'gossiping'.
wat would satisfy you the ISI indeed is THE devil for our region?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well Ahmed Rashid is not some two bit writer for the APP. He's among the most respected journalists in the world and an authority on the Pakistan-Afghanistan conflict, as well as on the Pakistani state and its functioning. So yeah, Ahmed Rashid said so. Deal with it.

Someone always has to say something, I'm quite sure that nobody on this forum has the means or ability to directly validate facts from the battlefield or the corridors of power.

Next you'll be asking for photographic and documentary evidence, or perhaps video footage? But oh no- that may be doctored! Photoshopped!

No, but I would have expected someone of his stature to have mentioned such an explosive 'fact' in his quite well researched recent book, where he devotes quite a bit of space to the 2002 events.

Possibly becasue all he had was an anecdote from someone that he may well have misunderstood or was not meant to be taken literally.

Sorry, but only a fool would take one sentence uttered on an Internet video and go around claiming that, Aha, this proves it!

There needs to be more corroboration of his allegation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

if indian raise the 'ISI bogeyman', then they have been fed 'bias, propaganda and conspiracy theories', if pakistanis raise it they are just 'gossiping'.
wat would satisfy you the ISI indeed is THE devil for our region?

Evidence that they were involved in Mumbai, or that it has been continuously 'pulling the strings', without any oversight, would be a good thing to start with.

Talking heads on TV spouting nonsensical conspiracy theories do not count as evidence.

 

[suresh_]

Evidence that they were involved in Mumbai, or that it has been continuously 'pulling the strings', without any oversight, would be a good thing to start with.

Talking heads on TV spouting nonsensical conspiracy theories do not count as evidence.

india claims that it has provided evidence many times in the past. and condi rice had recently said that ISI was hand in glove with the jihadis. so we have some thing to start with, that is if we are actually serious about starting at all.

 

[keeninterest]

While I have a lot of respect for Kusum Mohsin ( It thought it was Jugnu Mohsin), the above just sounds like two women sitting around gossiping.

The ISI is blamed for pretty much everythign, even in Pakistan, and these two have never shied away from blaming it. Despite evidence to the contrary, they still voice conspiracy theories of, 'ISI is pulling strings from behind the scenes'.

More than anythign their interview is a sad reflection of the South Aisan, and especially Pakistani, trait of finding conspiracies everywhere to explain shortcomings. Its not teh Taliban beating at the gates and a civilian government's ineptitude and corruption, no that would never be possible.

Instead it is the "ISI bogeyman" and some 'hidden force' pulling strings behind the scene. You may find this sort of analysis comforting becasue it feeds into the bias, propaganda and conspiracy theories fed to you in India. However, for me it is a sad reminder of how people are distracted by the media from focusing on the real issues by creating these conspiracy theories.

my mistake, the name indeed is jugnu mohsin.

the interview they gave never sounded as one filled with conspiracy theories. though i would admit that asma does get a little carried away but still the lady does talk a lot of relevant stuff where one plus one does add upto two and not some other digit. as for the gossip part those are interpretations that every one is free to conclude but if i were to tell you that they were still taking a contrary stand to our stand on kashmir may be then you would have not concluded that, that very good interview as just another gossip show.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

india claims that it has provided evidence many times in the past. and condi rice had recently said that ISI was hand in glove with the jihadis. so we have some thing to start with, that is if we are actually serious about starting at all.

Aray bhai - go to the evidence thread in the Pakistan India crises forum and read it. All this stuff has been thrashed about quite a bit.

There is not one iota of evidence that Pakistani institutions were involved in the Mumbai attacks - not one. Your own dossier sent to Pakistan and shared with the world stated that no evidence indicating Pakistani institutions involved in Mumbai was found. The FBI made the same determination, so did the leadership of the US and UK.

I believe David Miliband stood right next to your Foreign Minister and stated Pakistani institutions were not involved. That is more than enough to vindicate Pakistan.

But go read through the threads in that section, instead of me repeating the same arguments.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

my mistake, the name indeed is jugnu mohsin.

the interview they gave never sounded as one filled with conspiracy theories. though i would admit that asma does get a little carried away but still the lady does talk a lot of relevant stuff where one plus one does add upto two and not some other digit. as for the gossip part those are interpretations that every one is free to conclude but if i were to tell you that they were still taking a contrary stand to our stand on kashmir may be then you would have not concluded that, that very good interview as just another gossip show.

The reason I say 'gossip' is that the ISI has always acted at the discretion of the COAS and/or civilian leadership, and not on its own as these ladies suggest. History shows that.

Yet this view continues to be bandied about that it is a 'State within a state'. If governments were overthrown or elections rigged, the COAS and the 'political opposition and civllian president' were almost always in the loop, and were in fact the ones who gave the orders.

The ISI has not acted on its own initiative in any major event I have studied, beyond perhaps the Afghan Jihad (where it was given large latitude due to the nature of its role), and even there the larger objectives were completely controlled by HQ.

 

[Flintlock]

The reason I say 'gossip' is that the ISI has always acted at the discretion of the COAS and/or civilian leadership, and not on its own as these ladies suggest. History shows that.

Yet this view continues to be bandied about that it is a 'State within a state'. If governments were overthrown or elections rigged, the COAS and the 'political opposition and civllian president' were almost always in the loop, and were in fact the ones who gave the orders.

Ahmed Rashid would disagree with that!

 

[suresh_]

Aray bhai - go to the evidence thread in the Pakistan India crises forum and read it. All this stuff has been thrashed about quite a bit.

There is not one iota of evidence that Pakistani institutions were involved in the Mumbai attacks - not one. Your own dossier sent to Pakistan and shared with the world stated that no evidence indicating Pakistani institutions involved in Mumbai was found. The FBI made the same determination, so did the leadership of the US and UK.

I believe David Miliband stood right next to your Foreign Minister and stated Pakistani institutions were not involved. That is more than enough to vindicate Pakistan.

But go read through the threads in that section, instead of me repeating the same arguments.

sorry to frustrate you.
but I was not referring to any particular attack, but the general history. and plz stop taking 'milipede' seriously.
Ms rice had said in an interview that ISI enjoyed close ties with jihadi groups, that is a vindication of indian stand.

as for the mumbai dossier specifically, it doesnt incriminate ISI. true. but it puts a lot of doubts on their role. since, such a massive scheme cant be successful in pakistan without the role of all-pervasive ISI.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

sorry to frustrate you.
but I was not referring to any particular attack, but the general history. and plz stop taking 'milipede' seriously.
Ms rice had said in an interview that ISI enjoyed close ties with jihadi groups, that is a vindication of indian stand.

As a representative of the British government and their foreign minister, he has to be taken seriously, and his views were validated by the other entities I mentioned, so he is not alone.

We have close ties with several freedom fighting groups in Kashmir, and we had close ties with LeT before 2002. All of the insurgents fighting Indian occupation in Kashmir are not terrorists, since they do not target civilians as a matter of policy, but only target the SF's and government.

as for the mumbai dossier specifically, it doesnt incriminate ISI. true. but it puts a lot of doubts on their role. since, such a massive scheme cant be successful in pakistan without the role of all-pervasive ISI.

That is just speculation - I could say that I believe such a scheme woudl not be possible without the cooperation of Martians - that does not make it true. One still needs evidence, not speculation.

And the Taliban and some other religious/insurgent groups easily have the resources to fund and carry out such an operation. You just have to see the documentary on the Bajaur operation to see how sophisticated the Taliban militant tactics, training, defenses and equipment are.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ahmed Rashid would disagree with that!

Would you mind posting arguments to explain why? One sentence doesn't quite do it you know.

 

[A1Kaid]

As long as there are unjust men and women ruling Pakistan, Pakistan shall always linger in peril.

Though I am going to do something about it...