Pakistan helped Iraq in defeating IS, says Iraqi envoy

[Irfan Baloch]

guys the thread was about Pakistan secretly aiding Iraq to defeat ISIS without letting ISIS financiers know.
now Iraqis have blown our secret and KSA might be displeased
we dragged Americans in the blame game for no reason

 

[Desert Fox]

Unless those dictators are stooges of the US.

Well said!

 

[HAIDER]

guys the thread was about Pakistan secretly aiding Iraq to defeat ISIS without letting ISIS financiers know.
now Iraqis have blown our secret and KSA might be displeased
we dragged Americans in the blame game for no reason

Well, Pakistan been training Iraqi cadets since 1982. Every year Saddam used to send his elite guard PMA Kakul for training. Its not a secret. All exchange done through foreign office.

 

[Psychic]

No surprise there.

Apples and Oranges, don't make stupid comparisons here. Iraq was not building a great air force or training 36 divisions for labensraum.
And a friendly advice, don't draw conclusions so early since you are not the only one who "reads". Perhaps you read but others "study".

Yes, I would. For as long as I have been on this forum, NEVER have I deny any country the right to feel threatened by US. They want to attack US out of that fear ? Go ahead.

But we know how some people whine when the US does actually gets attacked.

No surprise there.


Yes, I would. For as long as I have been on this forum, NEVER have I deny any country the right to feel threatened by US. They want to attack US out of that fear ? Go ahead.


All countries are paranoid. No country could afford not to be.


The first Al Qaeda WTC attack was the underground garage bomb truck in 1993. Then came Sept 11, 2001. That is 8 yrs passed. What do you think we have been doing all those yrs ?

The Taliban finally gained majority control of Afghanistan in 1996, but the Taliban was already in prominence before that.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/taliban-afghanistan

The US negotiated with anyone in Afghanistan who could and would do what we want regarding Al Qaeda in general and Osama bin Laden in particular. Plenty of books have been written about Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, either directly about or Al Qaeda figured prominently. Probably the definitive biography of the Taliban is 'Taliban' by Ahmed Rashid, which I have in my little home library.

Would you like me to cite Chapter 1 on the origin yr of when the Taliban, as a movement and a group, gain such a prominence that pretty much anyone who want anything to do with Afghanistan must deal with the Taliban ?

Would you like me to cite Chapter 10 where Osama bin Laden established an Al Qaeda base in 1989 ?


I probably read more than you do.


It does not matter. The fact that Afghanistan was used by Al Qaeda, whether the Taliban was involved or even knew or not, is the only relevant thing here. The fact that we petitioned the Taliban regarding Al Qaeda is evident that we nominally respect the international order. Whoever is in charge, would you help US about Osama bin Laden ?


So what ? Does that mean we were supposed to do nothing after 9/11 ?

In less than 100 days, we lay waste to the Taliban as an effective governing body of Afghanistan. But we waited a decade and it took an attack on US to compel US to act militarily.


That is bullshit and everyone knew it then and know it now. You will NEVER convince anyone of that. If there are any ISI readers out there, they are laughing hysterically.

I am not interested in talking in circles with you as you are not interested in trying to comprehend that the Taliban were busy in trying to bring law and order to the war torn Afghanistan instead of sitting with AQ and conspiring against the US. Afghanistan was sanctioned by the US after the Taliban takeover and there was food shortage, thousands of children died at that time, people there had a reason to hate the US just like you find reasons to attack them. Do you even know the condition of Afghanistan before the Taliban took power and after? For the Taliban, the world didn't revolve around the US. I have not yet even talked about drones and other such policies which are increasing the support of AQ and such other groups.
As per your claim the US invasion(which resulted in the deaths of a million and a half Iraqis and Afghans) was justified, the same way, AQ claims that their attacks against the US are also justified since the US has been patronizing Israel which they consider their enemy.

The same way, the fight against the US forces in these two countries is also justified. What's kosher for you is also kosher for others, and don't talk about terrorism or anything like that since the laws and definitions are not divine.

Here is an extract from "In Line of Fire - A Memoir" by Musharraf.
It discusses the meeting between Pakistan, KSA and Mullah Omar.
As You can see, the meeting occured three months after June 1998, or September 1998.
It did not occur after 9/11.
Mullah Omar was warned that he harboured OBL and Al Qaeda.
He did NOTHING for THREE YEARS.

That is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention, where You shall in most cases intern
a combatant immediately.

Whether it was a decade or three years has no impact on the legality of the US Invasion.
That he may or may not have agreed to hand over OBL a few days does not change
the fact that at the time of the 9/11 attacks he was an ally of OBL and have
to accept the consequences.
He certainly did not inform the world about handing over OBL.
That would have made the news, and I am sure that I would have remembered that.

Mullah Omar was stupid, and Afghanistan is suffering from this single decision.
All the deaths in Afghanistan are thus his responsibility.

View attachment 412249

So now a dictator's word is to be taken as a gospel of truth whereas the word of the man who personally negotiated(Gen Mehmood) has no credibility?
What did you say about dictators in one of your earlier posts?

BTW that man was accused of lying and playing both sides by the country the actions of which you are defending here. But when it suits your narrative, his words are given credence.@Desert Fox

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Apples and Oranges, don't make stupid comparisons here. Iraq was not building a great air force or training 36 divisions for labensraum.
And a friendly advice, don't draw conclusions so early since you are not the only one who "reads". Perhaps you read but others "study".

But we know how some people whine when the US does actually gets attacked.


I am not interested in talking in circles with you as you are not interested in trying to comprehend that the Taliban were busy in trying to bring law and order to the war torn Afghanistan instead of sitting with AQ and conspiring against the US. Afghanistan was sanctioned by the US after the Taliban takeover and there was food shortage, thousands of children died at that time, people there had a reason to hate the US just like you find reasons to attack them. Do you even know the condition of Afghanistan before the Taliban took power and after? For the Taliban, the world didn't revolve around the US. I have not yet even talked about drones and other such policies which are increasing the support of AQ and such other groups.
As per your claim the US invasion(which resulted in the deaths of a million and a half Iraqis and Afghans) was justified, the same way, AQ claims that their attacks against the US are also justified since the US has been patronizing Israel which they consider their enemy.

The same way, the fight against the US forces in these two countries is also justified. What's kosher for you is also kosher for others, and don't talk about terrorism or anything like that since the laws and definitions are not divine.



So now a dictator's word is to be taken as a gospel of truth whereas the word of the man who personally negotiated(Gen Mehmood) has no credibility?
What did you say about dictators in one of your earlier posts?

BTW that man was accused of lying and playing both sides by the country the actions of which you are defending here. But when it suits your narrative, his words are given credence.@Desert Fox

Your word, has zero credibility here without sources.
Show that Gen. Mehmood has a different opinion.

Hijacking a civilian passenger jet and using it as a projectile is illegal,
in every book except that of a terrorist supporter.

There is legal warfare and illegal warfare, and You do not see the difference.
Now on ignore...

 

[Psychic]

Your word, has zero credibility here without sources.
Show that Gen. Mehmood has a different opinion.

Hijacking a civilian passenger jet and using it as a projectile is illegal,
in every book except that of a terrorist supporter.

There is legal warfare and illegal warfare, and You do not see the difference.
Now on ignore...

https://tribune.com.pk/story/229844/the-day-69-children-died/
Now that man claimed that Pakistani forces carried out that attack. Here goes his credibility.

If hijacking a civilian airliner is terrorism, so is bombing of innocent people, attacking pharmaceutical industries, shooting missiles on mere suspicion and carpet bombing . The only difference is that one is legal, other is not. Innocents are killed in both. I do not differentiate on the basis of legality. Law and justice are two different things.

The US is a Western power, very much like the British empire. And just like it it embodies two distinct aspects; a semetic one (Jewish) and a European one. The former aspect manifests itself in the form of self-destructive wars in the middle East and the resulting instability which only benefits a certain country in that region at the expense of American and Western interests. The latter aspect (European) manifests itself in the form of the altruistic force-for-good on the global stage which is unparalleled in human history in terms of its humanitarian work.

Now you will be labelled a conspiracy theorist for stating the obvious.

One of the major criticisms Muslims have for the US (& the West in general) is that it's extremely supportive of Israel and is its leading ally on the world stage. But the Chinese and the Russians are no different, but rather they are less vocal about it and only pay lip service to Muslim countries while maintaining and further advancing their relations with Israel. China is one of Israel's major business partners. They even purchased American military secrets from Israel.

Both are quite different. China and Russia are have a relationship with Israel for their own national interests on the other hand , the US protects the national interests of Israel at her own expense.
Later on, we know what their own leaders said about the Iraq war...Obama, Blair and Trump.

 

[Desert Fox]

Both are quite different. China and Russia are have a relationship with Israel for their own national interests on the other hand , the US protects the national interests of Israel at her own expense.
Later on, we know what their own leaders said about the Iraq war...Obama, Blair and Trump.

Right, however this is in the context of Zionist influence over Western politics that push for agendas detrimental to that particular country (America in this case) and which benefits Israel. Israel is powerful primarily because of Western backing, which in turn is made possible by Jewish

Russia and China are for the most part indifferent to Israel and are willing to pursue business ties with that country because it is in their interest.

Apples and Oranges, don't make stupid comparisons here. Iraq was not building a great air force or training 36 divisions for labensraum.
And a friendly advice, don't draw conclusions so early since you are not the only one who "reads". Perhaps you read but others "study".

But we know how some people whine when the US does actually gets attacked.


I am not interested in talking in circles with you as you are not interested in trying to comprehend that the Taliban were busy in trying to bring law and order to the war torn Afghanistan instead of sitting with AQ and conspiring against the US. Afghanistan was sanctioned by the US after the Taliban takeover and there was food shortage, thousands of children died at that time, people there had a reason to hate the US just like you find reasons to attack them. Do you even know the condition of Afghanistan before the Taliban took power and after? For the Taliban, the world didn't revolve around the US. I have not yet even talked about drones and other such policies which are increasing the support of AQ and such other groups.
As per your claim the US invasion(which resulted in the deaths of a million and a half Iraqis and Afghans) was justified, the same way, AQ claims that their attacks against the US are also justified since the US has been patronizing Israel which they consider their enemy.

The same way, the fight against the US forces in these two countries is also justified. What's kosher for you is also kosher for others, and don't talk about terrorism or anything like that since the laws and definitions are not divine.



So now a dictator's word is to be taken as a gospel of truth whereas the word of the man who personally negotiated(Gen Mehmood) has no credibility?
What did you say about dictators in one of your earlier posts?

BTW that man was accused of lying and playing both sides by the country the actions of which you are defending here. But when it suits your narrative, his words are given credence.@Desert Fox

Would like to add that Westerners are quick to criticize groups like the Taliban but where were these Western governments after the Soviet withdrawal? They just tossed Afghanistan to the side like a used paper towel.

The Taliban were a natural response to the lawlessness and warlordism prevailing in that country and actually managed to bring some form of law and order.

Though I believe they made a big mistake allowing Arabs to stay in their country. They should have sent them packing like how the Bosnians did after the Yugoslav war in the 90's. But whether or not if that would have excluded the Taliban from the crosshairs of Uncle Sam is doubtable.

 

[gambit]

Apples and Oranges, don't make stupid comparisons here. Iraq was not building a great air force or training 36 divisions for labensraum.

Just enough to invade a smaller country for oil.

And a friendly advice, don't draw conclusions so early since you are not the only one who "reads". Perhaps you read but others "study".

I doubt that you actually study any of the issues brought on here. Take the fact that you did not know how long Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, for one example.

I am not interested in talking in circles with you as you are not interested in trying to comprehend that the Taliban were busy in trying to bring law and order to the war torn Afghanistan instead of sitting with AQ and conspiring against the US.

Part of bringing in law and order is to establish dominance of force over others. If not force, then by authority. Make sense, no ?

In a country where there are contestant powers, there will be a civil war. Al Qaeda was not a contestant force in Afghanistan, just seeking a safe haven. Osama bin Laden was already friendly to Mullah Omar, allegedly they were in-laws, but even if they were not related by marriage, their friendly relations pretty much guaranteed that there will not be a conflict between the two men and their respective forces.

Obedience is also a component of having law and order. Either by will or by enforcement.

All the Taliban had to do was eject Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan. Obedience by Osama bin Laden or not would have been irrelevant. If Al Qaeda does not obey and leave, the Taliban could have enforce that obedience. They were numerically superior and out-gunned Al Qaeda.

You are not talking in circles. You are actually running around in circles. Even worse.

No arguments you can bring in the defense of Afghanistan as a once safe haven for Al Qaeda will be accepted by any jurist.

Study THAT.

 

[Kyoto]

Pakistan, Nigeria, Philippines, Iraq etc should create a real anti-terror organisation, not like that Wahabbi Alliance BS

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Just enough to invade a smaller country for oil.

isn't the US doing the same thing??

Mullah Omar was stupid, and Afghanistan is suffering from this single decision.
All the deaths in Afghanistan are thus his responsibility.

and who is responsible for the death of 30 million civilians who Died in US invasions since WW II?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

isn't the US doing the same thing??
View attachment 413423


and who is responsible for the death of 30 million civilians who Died in US invasions since WW II?

Afghanistan: Obviously Mullah Omar
Iraq: Saddam Hussein
Korean War: Kim Il Sung
Vietnam: Not an invasion
Grenada: 400 casualties
Panama: 500-4000 casualties.
Libya: Most casualities due to Libyan infighting.
Syria: Most casualties due to infighting

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Afghanistan: Obviously Mullah Omar

Mullah Omar didn't Invaded USA it was other way around

Iraq: Saddam Hussein

how even?? You blame Iraq for Having WMD and link with Al qaida but later both of these allegations were proved worong, So only Bush and Tony Blair are responsible for death of 1 million civilians

Korean War: Kim Il Sung
Vietnam: Not an invasion

the casualties were due to USA bombings
blaming Natives for death is like Blaming Heart for Myocardial infarction

Libya: Most casualities due to Libyan infighting.

who gave you right to invade them?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

https://tribune.com.pk/story/229844/the-day-69-children-died/
Now that man claimed that Pakistani forces carried out that attack. Here goes his credibility.

If hijacking a civilian airliner is terrorism, so is bombing of innocent people, attacking pharmaceutical industries, shooting missiles on mere suspicion and carpet bombing . The only difference is that one is legal, other is not. Innocents are killed in both. I do not differentiate on the basis of legality. Law and justice are two different things.

Attacking military targets is not terrorism.
Failure of combatants to separate themselves from civilians is a war crime.
Yet You do not blame the criminals, you blame those that try to act within law.

That is supporting the criminals.

Profesional soldiers act within laws agreed within the international community.
Pakistan is one of the countries that have agreed to those laws.

If You do not like those laws, You should convince the rest of the world
you change those laws instead of whining about them on a forum.

Mullah Omar didn't Invaded USA it was other way around


how even?? You blame Iraq for Having WMD and link with Al qaida but later both of these allegations were proved worong, So only Bush and Tony Blair are responsible for death of 1 million civilians



the casualties were due to USA bombings
blaming Natives for death is like Blaming Heart for Myocardial infarction


who gave you right to invade them?

Mullah Omar provided casus belli.
Saddam invaded Quwait, this is casus belli.
Without that, second gulf would not have occurred. WMD was only a part of casus belli for that.

Vietnam: It was mainly North Vietnam trying to take over South Vietnam.
It was part of the Cold War. You can put as much blame on the Russians and the North Vietnamese.

Libya: *We* have not invaded Libya, and the action over Libya had a UN mandate.

 

[gambit]

isn't the US doing the same thing??

We invaded Afghanistan for oil ? News to me.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

We invaded Afghanistan for oil ? News to me.

Iraq