Pakistan has to accept India as big brother

[lamayuru]

Now what do you expect?! Of course China values the lives of its citizens. Of course when many of their people who go to another country to help that country develop gets murdered they will RESPOND. What do you think any other country would do? Sit at home and pick his nose pretending no one got killed?!

Even when other nations citizens who get killed in China, China investigates and tries its best to make sure it doesn't happen again. IT'S CALLED VALUING LIFE & ENSURING FOREIGNERS ARE SAFE AND PROTECTED!!!

Now any other questions?!

Why are you doing this?

How hard is it for you to draw a parallel between cracking down on Lal Masjid and prosecuting Hafiz Saeed? Or are we dealing with double standards here?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

my dear, There lies the problem, Your govt denied our co-operation in joint investigation instead asked us for proof... Just imagine, your govt is not allowing FBI to investigate, how on earth is It going to make its rival Investigate with you........... We have been giving you proof on series of dossiers which your media and govt hide it from public,and rage mutiny among you by belittling India...... We are no Fools. If it was like how your media claims, we wouldnt have been surrounded by achievements.

Pakistan offered a joint investigation right after Mumbai.

If the proposal was not repeated, it was because the Indian political and military leadership, with the media megaphone, went into overdrive with accusations against the Pakistani state and war hysteria.

That was countered with anti-Indian coverage in the Pakistani media, which meant that any sympathy and desire for cooperation in the eyes of the Pakistan electorate in the aftermath of Mumbai was squandered, and politically it would be very hard for any GoP to make concessions.

But it is fact that Pakistan made an offer, repeatedly, for joint investigations with India before the anti-Pakistan and pro-war hysteria took over India.

 

[Developereo]

I'm sorry, I found it hard to understand your post.
I will try to respond as I interpreted it.

Wow! You are being very candid. If China and Pakistan have wisened up to this fact. So have US and India.

The China/Pak friendship is a genuine friendship based on mutual interests that go way beyond India. As stated elsewhere China provides technical, financial and diplomatic support to Pakistan. Pakistan provides China a bridge to the Middle East and the Islamic world. This relationship is sustainable even if India didn't exist.

The "friendship of convenience" is the one we have with the US. Both sides know that. The same is true of the India/US relationship and the wiser Indians know that, but some ordinary Indians seem to be deluded.

Do Chinese call you their stooges? Because from where I perch, it is a very easy thing to do.

Then its time to reposition yourself to get a better view.

Indians are growing strong in the US. They are the most affluent community in the U S of A & their political influence is growing to be second only to the Jewish lobbies. And your point was?

Precisely that. The Jewish lobby. AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby in Washington. Indians (or anyone else) cannot even dream of approaching their level of influence. The Indian lobby operates only by their grace. If you ever get on their wrong side, India would find itself on the dustheap of used American allies.

That is why the Pakistani lobby has an uphill battle in Washington, compared to the Indian lobby.

Just as India is the bet for China-Pak, China is bet for India-US. US can easily say India is a chamcha just as China can say Pakistan is.

I don't understand this part at all.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In the meanwhile, looking at India Pakistan to exclusion of all else, what parameter can Pakistan righfully claim to be big on?

What does it matter?

How exactly are you interpreting 'India respect Pakistan' or for that matter 'Pakistan respect India as a big brother'?

 

[Developereo]

What about having a South Asia Union similar to EU where there will be free trade, one single currencey and also one vision for the whole of south asia. Would this not mean all are equal? and take away the idea of war in south asia

What you are proposing is effectively a reversal of the 1947 partition. The same reasons that applied in favor of a partition would apply against this proposal. One main reason is that India has about 1 billion Hindus. A combined South Asian nation, even with Pakistan and Bangladesh included, would only have 400,000 to 500,000 Muslims, so I don't see a political union being likely.

But I would favor a free trade zone and other types of cooperation, short of a political and monetary union.

 

[sensenreason]

Just one example is the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

Pakistan offered to help in a joint investigation and even send over an investigative team.
Pakistan offers help to India in Mumbai terror probe (Lead)

India rebuffed Pakistan's offer haughtily and tried to dictate to Pakistan what it should do. India tried acting like the US after 9/11. But it is not a superpower. It shouldn't presume to act that way. Even the US has learnt its lesson and toned down its arrogance.

That is what I mean by the recent Western courtship having gone to India's head. The West will move on, once their interests are satisfied. But India will have to live with its neighbors forever.

Ok, fair enough. Can you also answer the other parts..ie example of good behaviour from a regional power towards a smaller country?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

China came down hard on Musharraf when Chinese engineers involved in projects in Pakistan got killed.

I hope you get my point. If Pakistan gives China a bloody nose this higher than Himalayas, deeper than seas friendship will vanish like water vapour.

Friendship does not preclude one friend raising concerns with the other.

For one 'friend' to deliberately give the other a bloody nose suggests the friendship is on the rocks anyway. Beyond that the possibility of acrimony arising over certain issues always remains, and it is how the two parties resolve those issues that offers true insight into the relationship.

Contrasting the US-Pak relationship (even before the Nuclear tests) with the Sino-Pak relationship offers a lot of insight into that dynamic.

 

[Developereo]

Ok, fair enough. Can you also answer the other parts..ie example of good behaviour from a regional power towards a smaller country?

In times of natural disaster, most countries help each other regardless of enmity. Also most of the G8 are fairly generous with financial and technical help to the developing countries.

India and Pakistan help each other in many ways, e.g. cricket, climate change.
Pak ready for alliance with India on climate change

Despite differences on various other issues, Pakistan has expressed its readiness to forge alliance with India on the climate change agenda to keep off the developed nations from thursting their green house gas emission standards on the developing nations.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

By the way, for the most part the thread has had civil and informative exchanges.

Still not all the way through moderating, and I did have to delete some of the name calling and usual 'we are better' pissin contests, but keep up the constructive posting. Keeps the atmosphere clear and makes it possible to listen to the other side without automatically assuming they are out to bash you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What about having a South Asia Union similar to EU where there will be free trade, one single currencey and also one vision for the whole of south asia. Would this not mean all are equal? and take away the idea of war in south asia

No complaints about progressing towards an economic union, provided we resolve our disputes - though you should also read Gen. Durrani's comments about how any liberalization of trade needs to be done in steps, given the concerns of Pakistan businessmen.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

its just on observation.

Sorry re the CAPITALS.

Like i said its facinating watching wat is Happening in India the last few years in terms of business trade and development AND the stark contrast in Pakistan with USA and The Taliban and political unrest in Pakistan.

It should be noted that the insurgency and violence in Pakistan, and the subsequent economic decline, is a direct result of US actions, and therefore arguably externally driven.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The "friendship of convenience" is the one we have with the US. Both sides know that. The same is true of the India/US relationship and the wiser Indians know that, but some ordinary Indians seem to be deluded.

Possibly for another thread all its own, but I disagree with that.

I think that US interests, whether strategic or economic, are served well by being in a long term partnership with India, and we are seeing that, for example, with the double standards applied in offering India the nuclear deal.

 

[sensenreason]

In times of natural disaster, most countries help each other regardless of enmity. Also most of the G8 are fairly generous with financial and technical help to the developing countries.

India and Pakistan help each other in many ways, e.g. cricket, climate change.
Pak ready for alliance with India on climate change

Despite differences on various other issues, Pakistan has expressed its readiness to forge alliance with India on the climate change agenda to keep off the developed nations from thursting their green house gas emission standards on the developing nations.

Sure, I think this kind of partnership is something India should do...While I agree that even US had to tone down now given its Iraq fiasco...however, I think one of the problems is of 'closure' and affixing responsibility. If GOI blames Pak for 26/11 and previous terror acts and tomorrow it starts cooperating with Pakistan on terror wrt investigation and other policing...the arguement goes that the terror strategy that Pakistan adopted had 'won' (Im not discussing 26/11 or terrorism here but the modalities in which two countries have to engage)...so it has a certain pressure from its original blame on Pakistan to bring it to a 'closure' on many fronts...Internally in a political or nationalistic sense, strategically around the world (as it blamed Pak for the act etc) and also for the bilateral relationship (where talks were stalled due to 26/11).

So it kind of needs some things as 'deliverables' before it can re-calibrate the relationship with Pakistan on newer terms...

My sense is that the magnanimous behaviour expected from India per the logic of being the regional power can begin 'post' the closure on these terror issues...the problem is that the issues are all interlinked..and to extricate yourself from the policy dogma has an impact on many other GOI policies...

In other words...its a little more complicated for India to play the big brother as it would want to play from a position of strength......

Its like Bush accusing Saddam of developing WMD's but the threat rings a little empty as the pistol has no bullets...and Saddam sees no threat from the pistol as it knows it will make a noise when the trigger is pressed...but its survival is not at stake.....so in a way...India is NOT going to get the RIGHTS (benfits) of being the Regional power but is expected to discharge its regional power DUTIES (costs)....

India's size is its weakness and its weakness causes the role reversal...

Bye

 

[gubbi]

What does it matter?

How exactly are you interpreting 'India respect Pakistan' or for that matter 'Pakistan respect India as a big brother'?

It does matter. One is treated as an equal only if one matches with the other in more than one criteria. Unless Pakistan can match India economically, industrially, militarily, or even in the field of scientific pursuits there is no question of being equal. Oh yeah, include Cricket too. All that talk of all people are equal is practically hogwash.
Now seriously, how do you equate Pakistan with India? I am not trying to demean anyone here, but One cannot demand respect, one has gotta earn it! You for one should know this. With all due respect, in all its spectacular brouhaha, what has Pakistan achieved that India would give it her respect? On what basis do you so much as demand 'respect' on an equal footing? What is equal here, apart form being wrenched into two different entities from a single one to satisfy the egoistical whims of some politicians.
Consider this. Indians as a rabble rousing, arguing, squabbling, collective, stumbling people over the years have charted out a course which is earning us rich dividends. The world has begun to acknowledge India as a force to be reckoned with, compared to the humble beginnings of a toothless NAM movement. Now compare that with the strong US support that a basically homogeneous Pakistan (well, only if religiously) received when India went NAM. Oh those were the heady days, werent they?
What went wrong here? Pakistan had the support of the most powerful nation on Earth, interfered in Afghanistan when SU invaded and received US support to do so. You had both US's and China's support during times of our conflicts. You had a dream run, home run was within your grasp, and yet managed to squabble all the goodwill in such a short time. And you blame the rest of the world for your shortcomings. That, my friend is one major difference. Compare that with India, did we blame the US/Israel for our ills during the tough times we've had? Did we pout and sulk? No, we got our act together.
Now seriously how would anyone bring oneself to respect a people who cannot introspect and keep demanding respect only because they've got a UNSC member as BFF and a big Boom in their pockets (which for all practical purposes is made from stolen knowledge). Dont get me wrong here, but we are the very same people (unless you too believe that Pakistanis are of a superior race), set out on our paths at the same time (you've had a 24hr headstart), but charted out different paths due to our mindsets, and see where each of us stands today. Its really past time you ask yourselves some serious questions.
The bottom line AM, is, one has to earn respect, not demand it, be it from your friends, family or complete strangers.

 

[lamayuru]

This whole discussion is about the future direction and where we should aim to take our relationship.

What have you been smoking all this while?

The discussion is about the NOW. Read the article again. Durrani was speaking in Delhi today, his views are current- considering not some fictitious future world in which Pakistan is the lone superpower, but the hard reality of today.

Care to face up to it?