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Pakistan has to accept India as big brother

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My God the thread has spreaded to 12 pages and Pakistan still did not accept India as bigfoot oppss i mean big brother .

Buri baat chalo accept karo
 
Pakistan and India have one thing in common ..... they have both spent the last 62 years concentrating on India.

The one big difference between India and Pakistan these past 62 years has been Democracy ...... and the fear of accountability at regular guaranteed intervals it instils in the incumbent leadership.

Simply put, the common Pakistani has never been able to make a difference for his country, one way or the other, the best of intentions notwithstanding. His voice has never counted ...... dramatic visuals of mass uprisings during the SC judges saga notwithstanding.

And since Pakistan has always been ruled by the military hawks with short and infrequent bouts/experiments with what can only be politely termed as uniquely Pakistani "democracy", no one has really cared about the present or the future of the country, in a planned, seamless, incremental manner ..... with one leadership carrying on where the other left off, differences in political ideology notwithstanding. Simply put ..... on core issues, the nation comes first.

But therein lies the paradox ...... the definition of "core" changes depending on which side of the border you belong to.

The army dont need to care, nor are they accountable, coz they are there in spite of public opinion (barring the short honeymoon period all generals enjoy .... not on their own merit, but because of the demerits of those that they have replaced!), and their "performance" is not measured in socioeconomic indices but in its ability to raise the spectre of evil akhand bharat on the doorsteps waiting to kill its fathers, husbands, and brothers, and rape its mothers, sisters, and wives.

The "democratically elected" politician on the other hand knows that he is performing a guest act, an "item number" if you will in Bollywood parlance. He knows his shelf life is that of perishable foods at best, and in no way dependent on either his performance in office or public perception as such, cause lets face it, in pakistan, the public are mute, gagged, powerless, disillusioned bystanders, whose opinion has never counted for much in shaping the course of their nation.

The politician knows the army is going to come back, and the question is not if, but when. At the end of his honeymoon period therefore, while the military hawks gather steam and build up the akhand bharat rapist/murderers sprectre once more for the common pakistani to lap up, the "democratically elected" pakistani politician knows that what awaits him is the gallows, or a grenade blast, or a well aimed SAM, or a bullet (or bullets), or a blown up vehicle (SUV, airplane, boat, take your pick), or if divine intervention kicks in, enforced well-financed exile out of pakistan in an alien country.

So our politician busies himself not working for pakistan or pakistanis, but for one pakistani alone, him/herself.

It is true of all people ...... that they get the leadership they deserve.

So if the common pakistani is raped by his army, and stripped by his "elected", what other options does he have? He is between a rock and a hard place ..... and the rock and hard place have been coming closer and grating the life out of the country over the past 6 decades. Who in the past 62 years has built industry? Who has built schools and hospitals? Who has built roads and dams? Who has provided water and electricity? Who has put in place infrastructure and saved for the future? Who has invested in health and education and female and child health and literacy and rights? Who has ramped up a crumbling puppet of a judiciary?

Come on guys!!!!!!!!!! Who the hell has the time to do all of that! All that can wait! We have to get rich first ..... and fast ..... coz there are others waiting in line to take over ...... and hello?!! why do all of that anyway? For who? The people?

Yeah right! This is pakistan guys ...... wake up. The people dont count. They never have! And if they start making too much of a noise (fueled probably by being hungry and poor too long), or they start taking about alien concepts of accountability, justice, peace, then its time to bring in the bogeyman once more ..... the same old faithful we have always relied on like clockwork ..... the same evil incarnate we escaped when we carved out the "Land of the Pure" ............. INDIA/BHARAT/HINDUSTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! toba toba .....

Hungry stomachs of children are forgotten. Religious frenzy is whipped up. War fever dominates the population. Corruption and Incompetence are once more shoved under the carpet. And its business as usual in good ol pakistan. The political chaos continues regardless of whether there is a civilian or a military "government." The people continue to watch from the sidelines, descending deeper down the neverending spiral of disillusionment which sees the cream of the country's youth go off to find a better life in the US or Canada or Australia or the UK.

Those in power continue to fill their coffers from fast diminishing domestic reserves supplemented and propped up by charity from the West and the World Bank, with a few token pennies thrown towards signs of so-called development to appease the public, like some roads, and dams, and beautification of cities where the elite live, while the rest of pakistan stays firmly where it was 2 decades ago. I could go on, but I'm sure that more than us Indians, the pakistanis here realise the hard truth of what I am saying and what they sadly have known for some time now, but righteous nationalistic pride prevents them from admitting.

So who in their right minds would be stupid enough to build bridges, become friends, and accept India as a brother, big, small, step, half, or otherwise?

Grow up Durrani saab, and smell the coffee! Retirement and senility beckon. Make way for the next wave of zealous Generals now. Of course, that is after the current 10% quota is done and dusted.

What pakistan needs today is a Revolution ..... an uprising from within ..... a civil war if you will unlike the directionless fighting it finds itself engulfed in today. It needs to open its eyes, raise its voice, and ask for progress and accountability from its leaders, in place of empty anti-India propaganda.

Pakistan needs to invest in pakistan ..... and not in the destruction of hindustan.

Until the above happens, no amount of brothers, uncles, or fathers are going to help.

Cheers, Doc
 
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My God the thread has spreaded to 12 pages and Pakistan still did not accept India as bigfoot oppss i mean big brother .

Buri baat chalo accept karo

Jana; I second you, you know whats the most incredible thing is

that , One Indian shooting her or his logic of how powerful India is,

and how weak Pakistan is, so better accept Indian as big brother.

And can last for 12 pages?:pakistan::china:
 
Pakistan and India have one thing in common ..... they have both spent the last 62 years concentrating on India.

The one big difference between India and Pakistan these past 62 years has been Democracy.

Simply put, the common Pakistani has never been able to make a difference for his country, one way or the other, the best of intentions notwithstanding.

And since Pakistan has always been ruled by the military hawks with short and infrequent bouts/experiments with what can only be politely termed as uniquely Pakistani "democracy", no one has really cared about the present or the future of the country.

The army dont need to coz they are there in spite of public opinion, and their "performance" is not measured in socioeconomic indices but in its ability to raise the spectre of evil akhand bharat on the doorsteps waiting to kill its fathers, husbands, and brothers, and rape its mothers, sisters, and wives.

The "democratically elected" politician on the other hand knows that he is performing a guest act, an "item number" in Bollywood parlance. He knows his shelf life is short at best, and not dependent on either his performance in office or public perception as such, cause lets face it, in pakistan, the public are mute, gagged, powerless, disillusioned bystanders. The politician knows the army is going to come back, and the question is not if, but when.

At the end of his honeymoon period therefore, while the military hawks gather steam and build up the akhand bharat rapist/murderers sprectre once more for the common pakistani to lap up, the "democratically elected" pakistani politician knows that what awaits him is the gallows, or a grenade blast, or a well aimed SAM, or a bullet (or bullets), or a blown up vehicle (SUV, airplane, boat, take your pick), or if divine intervention kicks in, enforced well-financed exile out of pakistan in an alien country.

So our politician busies himself not working for pakistan or pakistanis, but for one pakistani alone, him/herself.

So if the common pakistani is raped by his army, and stripped by his "elected", what option does he have? Who in the past 62 years has built industry? Who has built schools and hospitals? Who has built roads and dams? Who has provided water and electricity? Who has put in place infrastructure and saved for the future? Who has invested in health and education and female and child health and literacy and rights? Who has ramped up a crumbling puppet of a judiciary?

Come on guys!!!!!!!!!! Who the hell has the time to do all of that! All that can wait! We have to get rich first ..... and fast ..... coz there are others waiting in line ...... and why do all of that anyway? For who? The people?

Yeah right! This is pakistan guys ...... wake up. The people dont count. They never have! And if they start making too much of a noise (fueled probably by being hungry and poor too long), or they start taking about alien concepts of accountability, justice, peace, then its time to bring in the bogeyman once more ..... the same old faithful we have always relied on like clockwork ..... the same evil incarnate we escaped when we carved out the "Land of the Pure" ............. INDIA/BHARAT/HINDUSTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hungry stomachs of children are forgotten. Religious frenzy is whipped up. War fever dominates the population. Corruption and Incompetence are once more shoved under the carpet. And its business as usual in good ol pakistan.

So who in their right minds would be stupid enough to build bridges, become friends, and accept India as a brother, big, small, step, half, or otherwise?

Gro up Durrani saab. Retirement and senility beckon. Make way for the next wave of zealous Generals now. Of course, that is after the current 10% quota is done and dusted.

Cheers, Doc
Haha here comes a Indian doctor who know nothing about Pakistan and posts usual bs spread-ed by Indian Media..Buddy it was during Military time we got the most infrastructure.Islamabad was built up from scratch by General Ayub Khan...The Karachi Development under MQM during last 8 years all done thanks to Musharraf for allowing MQM to form government.Pakistan had nothing when we started.Now we have very good infrastructure at least in NWFP, Sindh and Punjab and it is improving day by day.I wonder if India is so developed then where there are more slums in India then Pakistan..Hmm.Go through the thread Development in Pakistan and hope your views will changed..The same can be said about India the only thing is here are you talking about Hindu just replace it with Chinese evil communist which you people talk about and China is far bigger then India ever will be.Gonna get your ***** kicked again like 62.I was not expecting such bs from you after reading your previous posts..totally disappointed.
 
bs spread-ed

Anything unpalatable to you is not automatic BS.

it was during Military time
If that is so , why has every one of your rulers met such a horrific end? I guess Mush was trying to outsmart the Pakistanis but there are people baying for the poor man's blood too. And after all he has done for you. Pooh!
 
@AM:
"
do get around to further explaining with specificity what exactly this 'lop sided' Indo-Pak relationship should look like?
"
Bola to! If you are hung up on the word "lop sided" let me back away from it. Now I said ::ALREADY::, when Pakistan and India come to any table. How can they be equals?
Its the same thing - the question is not about whether the two nations are equal in XYZ category, it is about how you specifically see the relationship, assuming inequality.


Gubbi has pointed out you are no saints.
What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? No one is a saint. Gubbi and you are pointing out the obvious and something irrelevant.

You have been pushing around basically anyone you could, I guess that means only Afghanistan, but had you been surrounded by weaker states you would not have been kind to them. Why I say this, look at your internal (intra province) squabbles for power. The Pakistani Punjabi far outstrips virtually everyone else in devouring state privileges and natural resources. It is the nature of the beast - as Gubbi pointed out.
Afghanistan was not pushed around by us - please try and at least be slightly more informed than Indian media catchphrases. The Afghans were the ones that started interfering in Pakistan from its inception - refusing to accept it as a nation, sheltering and supporting the Baluch insurgents during their multiple insurgencies, trying to incite a 'Pashtunistan movement', carrying out bombings in Pakistan, and later colluding with the Soviets in conducting terrorism and supporting insurgents.

We went into Afghanistan, along with the CIA and Saudis, to stop the Soviets. Later on, while we did support one particular faction in Afghanistan in their civil war India, Iran and Russia were supporting another rather Brutal faction, so even in the one place where you allege 'pushing neighbors around', Pakistan's involvement was only to bring about stability out of the chaos of the Afghans civil war and deny India the influence to carry out a repeat of the terrorism and proxy war in engaged in East Pakistan.

And again, what exactly does this have to do with the question posed about how you specifically define this 'lop-sided relationship'?

Now what makes a state weak or strong, that is what this is all about is it not? You have rejected my ideas of using comparative GDPs as opposed to what capital the partners invest in a venture.

It is not about what makes a nation strong or weak - we are assuming India is strong and Pakistan is weak - this is about how you specifically define the relationship between them assuming that. I rejected your idea's on comparative GDP's because that is not what should govern the allocation of 'voting rights' in any commercial JV - its stands to reason that voting rights will be based on the capital both partners invest. If Pakistan believes that the project is of strategic importance,she may insist that JV be strictly 50-50, in terms of capital invested and control retained. India would be free to reject such a proposal as a sovereign nation, as would Pakistan any proposal that she saw as counterproductive.
So when 2 countries sit down what kind of capital can this be? Surely no multi-lateral or bi-lateral countries forum involves hard cash as an upfront investment to determine voting rights. You go with your social standing in the comity of nations. The web has a lot of voices so can be assumed to be representative and fair. Try and search India and you might get G-8+5 and P-5, they both represent the highest tables of the world economically and in global influence and India is bidding to both; Where is Pakistan with respect to all this? You are still struggling to form a nation, how far have you come from 1947?
Why should it not be hard cash (not literally), if two nations are looking at commercial joint ventures? And why should India get greater voting rights when her capital investment is equal or perhaps lower than the other partner/partners? That would mean a party with less to lose financially has the overwhelming decision making power. No one will buy that line, and the argument flouts good economic sense.

Forget even what I said. If you really want an equal partnership, give me one good reason/parameter as to why? Isn't it true that had you been stronger today, you would have been speaking from where I am.
Why should I speak from where you are? I see your and Gubbis position as arrogant and egotistical, and I see your insistence on using social standing, instead of the input from the respectvie partners into a JV, as a measure for 'voting rights' as a blatantly flawed and arrogant position.

No sir, I think myself better than that. I would not suggest such a thing in a relationship with with Afghanistan, or Sri Lanka for example.
Quick Question: In a bilateral engagement between Pakistan and Afghanistan to the exclusion of all else will you treat Afghanistan at power? Since that is the only country in the world that can justifiably make you proud of your achievements. But watch your back, they may catch up quite fast, since there isn't much catching up to do anyways.
Ahhh - the self-proclaimed peacenik's true colors come out, though they were becoming obvious far earlier in any case.

The question is not of treating Afghanistan as a 'power' (whatever that means), it is about having a relationship based on mutual respect. Which would mean that she gets a share on issues of mutual concern based on her contribution. Currently for example we are negotiating the Afghan Transit Trade Agreement - Afghanistan has concerns and we have concerns, and we'll work out a compromise based on addressing those concerns. The key being one side not pushing the other to compromise on her national security interests.

Nice flame hidden in there by the way - I dare say Afghanistan has a lot of catching up to do with Pakistan.

P.S. Even if in a HYPOTHETICAL world, such a forum was to be based on financial investment. Pakistan may not count for much. India could sweep all voting rights. Financially wrt Pakistan India is very favorably placed.
As I mentioned earlier, in a bilateral relationship, Pakistan may not even enter into an agreement that does not provide equal voting rights. That would be our choice as a sovereign nation, and India can go sit in a corner and suck her thumb about it.

Bye for now.
 
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My God the thread has spreaded to 12 pages and Pakistan still did not accept India as bigfoot oppss i mean big brother .

Buri baat chalo accept karo

Funny..did'nt know you were capable of humour:)
 
Anything unpalatable to you is not automatic BS.


If that is so , why has every one of your rulers met such a horrific end? I guess Mush was trying to outsmart the Pakistanis but there are people baying for the poor man's blood too. And after all he has done for you. Pooh!
Musharraf due to WOT, Judicial Crisis, Politics, Media.Nothing to do with Economy in fact if it was not for WOT and the crisis our economy would have not crashed at all.
 
So Billi Theelay se Bahir aa Gai ..... So India can't accept a peaceful and prosper Pakistan.

After this big brother thing will be a rant of Akhand Bahrat... Lolz And still Indians call themselves Democratic I just witness a new level of this democracy here.
 
Its the same thing - the question is not about whether the two nations are equal in XYZ category, it is about how you specifically see the relationship, assuming inequality.
Just like US and Mexico are. Is that clear enough for ya?

Afghanistan was not pushed around by us
What was all that talk about "strategic depth"?

The Afghans were the ones that started interfering in Pakistan from its inception - refusing to accept it as a nation, sheltering and supporting the Baluch insurgents during their multiple insurgencies, trying to incite a 'Pashtunistan movement', carrying out bombings in Pakistan, and later colluding with the Soviets in conducting terrorism and supporting insurgents.
You never cease to amuse me when you blame all sundry for the ills plaguing Pakistan today. US, India, Israel even the Brits and the French were all the usual suspects, but now blaming Afghanistan is a new ball game altogether. Oh dear, either people are highly incompetent to stop others from interfering in the state of affairs or dumb enough not understand whats happening around them. Take your pick. Now with such authorities (obviously drawn from the general population) its anybody's guess as to what direction the country can head into.

We went into Afghanistan, along with the CIA and Saudis, to stop the Soviets.
Wrong again. Pakistan started interfering in Afghanistan on its own when SU invaded. Not along with CIA and SA.
I would like to bring to your kind attention an excellent thread about the role of Soviet 'spetsnaz' in tackling afghan mujhs. Many of the posts are by a spetsnaz member who participated in many operations and a historian who did extensive work on SU operations in Afghanistan. Judge for yourself as to what exactly happened.
militaryphotos.net
Spetsnaz had defeated the Mujahidden by the summer of 1986

Pakistan's involvement was only to bring about stability out of the chaos of the Afghans civil war and deny India the influence to carry out a repeat of the terrorism and proxy war in engaged in East Pakistan.
Earlier you said that Afghans attacked Pakistan and refused to accept the IB. And now you claim benevolence and that Pakistan worked for the betterment of Afghans!! Kudos on your double standards. C'mon now, it was all about strategic depth - Pakistan's official Afghan policy. Either you are really ignorant to make that above statement or are willingly indulging in doling out misinformation generously in the vain hope that things on the ground might change.

It is not about what makes a nation strong or weak - we are assuming India is strong and Pakistan is weak
India IS strong. No ifs and buts. Judge for yourself in whichever way possible.

I rejected your idea's on comparative GDP's because that is not what should govern the allocation of 'voting rights' in any commercial JV - its stands to reason that voting rights will be based on the capital both partners invest. If Pakistan believes that the project is of strategic importance,she may insist that JV be strictly 50-50, in terms of capital invested and control retained. India would be free to reject such a proposal as a sovereign nation, as would Pakistan any proposal that she saw as counterproductive.

Why should it not be hard cash (not literally), if two nations are looking at commercial joint ventures? And why should India get greater voting rights when her capital investment is equal or perhaps lower than the other partner/partners? That would mean a party with less to lose financially has the overwhelming decision making power. No one will buy that line, and the argument flouts good economic sense.
That is an excellent point, AM. And I do agree with you on that one.

No sir, I think myself better than that. I would not suggest such a thing in a relationship with with Afghanistan, or Sri Lanka for example.
Can you really say that wrt Pak policy on Afghanistan?

Nice flame hidden in there by the way - I dare say Afghanistan has a lot of catching up to do with Pakistan.
Precisely. Well said AM. Now look at the mirror, that same thing applies to Pakistan if you want to compare yourselves with India as a nation state.

And just for that, take a break for a couple of weeks. I am tired of your hidden barbs and disingenuous claims to be a 'peacemaker' while you subtly denigrate and ridicule Pakistan all of the time displaying exceptional arrogance and ego.
Nobody is ridiculing Pakistan, its the policies that Pakistan follows that has created such a mess around herself. If you take constructive criticism as personal attacks on your ego, then seriously God help Pakistan.
That would be our choice as a sovereign nation, and India can go sit in a corner and suck her thumb about it.
Nice quote Mr mod. AM.
Unfortunately for you sitting far from any decision making position in Islamabad, India has been successfully bending Pakistani authorities by using many means available in the diplomatic cookbook, and will continue to do so in the future with much greater success rates given the growing clout India enjoys worldwide. War aint the only way to subdue a nation, and gotta admit Indian politicians are very good at that. Lets see who ends up wearing the "Dunce" hat soon!
 
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