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Pakistan has to accept India as big brother

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Final Solution - Massacres in India

forward to 2hrs :17mins

This same Hindu philosophy is repeated by terrorists that killed 2000 people by people in the Hindu government of Gujarat

"Hindu-Muslim problem exists on a large scale. We don't want them to shift to Pakistan, they can live here. They are 140-150 million, we're 850 million Hindus. We are like brothers, elder and younger. They live in the same family. Muslims must accept that they're youngsters and must learn to respect us elders"

Ridiculous commentary from India.
 
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Final Solution - Massacres in India

forward to 2hrs :17mins

This same Hindu philosophy is repeated by terrorists that killed 2000 people by people in the Hindu government of Gujarat



Ridiculous commentary from India.

That is a fallacy, but by and large people have found reason to live in peace. Just as Gojra does not mean every Pakistani Muslim is blood thirsty for all Pakistani Christians.
 
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That is a fallacy, but by and large people have found reason to live in peace. Just as Gojra does not mean every Pakistani Muslim is blood thirsty for all Pakistani Christians.
Yes but here we are 6 years later, Indian newspaper repeating the same mantra over...

I'm not saying every Hindu is like that, but just highlighting that the ones that claim to be big brothers, are in fact big fat terrorists. The choice of categorization is yours beyond that.
 
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Are we getting Kashmir from the big brother ..or not?
 
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ok young lady sleep now even you dit 24\7 we never accept india big bro:D
 
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You just dont accept good ol' plain facts now, do you?

Thanks for once again not answering the question and engaging in ever more hyperbole.

It is not I who cannot accept facts (not sure what 'facts' I am supposedly denying anyway), but you who cannot comprehend and answer a simple question.

Try again won't you?

What exactly does this 'lopsided' India-Pakistan relationship look like to you?

This is how I see it. Pakistan is in a weaker position and conversely India is definitely stronger.
Yes we know that, for the sake of discussion I even told lamayuru to consider that a given so we can move on without the two of you regurgitating the same thing over and over again, yet you can't resis. Are you guys so insecure that you like to hear yourselves drone this 'India is stronger than Pakistan' mantra incessantly? Otherwise can we move ahead and actually answer the question?
Of course India will bully the weaker, for its nature of any beast to do so. You did that in Afghanistan and in your ertswhile East Pakistan.

OK, so we might finally be getting somewhere in terms of some sort of an answer -so are you saying that a 'lop sided relationship' suggests that India should be allowed to bully Pakistan by supporting terrorism in Pakistan ala East Pakistan and Baluchistan? Is there more to this bullying, less, or is that it?
But your ego and arrogance which comes with ego does not let you accept that India is far ahead of your league.
So wait - you are suggesting that under this lop sided relationship we shoudl let India support insurgents and terrorists ala East Pakistan and Baluchistan in Pakistan, and any attempt to counter that is 'ego and arrogance' - did I get that right?
You always try to bring in China vis-a-vis Indo-Pak relations hoping, in vain, that China will come to your aid should a crisis arise. Aint happening.

Too much at stake for both India and China. (here's a pointer, Indians hate, in a healthy way, the Chinese and vice-versa because we see them as very strong competition).
So Pakistan (non-state actors -whatever that stupid term means) is pretty much on her own and now when many a nefarious activities are exposed and accepted by the whole world over as the source of Taliban menace (not to mention the source of terrorist attacks in India), finds itself with its back to the wall.
If you were to actually read the posts, you would find that I argued that China will not come to Pakistan's aid in case of a military confrontation - that was in response to one of your compatriots who suggested that the PA would take PLA sanctuary. SO what next, since this assertion of yours has been shown a strawman and a canard. AFAIK, Pakistan is not banking on China to come to its rescue in any military confrontation, though the Chinese reportedly have banked on Pakistan opening another front against India - so that is in fact quite the other way around.

Our dependence upon China is strictly business - we have a fair degree of faith in their ability to fulfill military and strategic contracts, that obviously are essential to maintaining a credible deterrent against India.

And again, what exactly does this have to do with defining this 'lop-sided Indo-Pak relationship'? I though we were getting somewhere with the last point you made about Pakistan being 'egotistical and arrogant' by daring to stand up to Indian bullying ...

When once you were the darling of cocktail parties in the US congress, this recent fall from grace has hurt the collective pride of Pakistanis and cannot come to terms with failed policies of the alternative military and civilian govts. You still think in terms of what could have been, instead of whats presently happening. And that my friend, holds you back from giving up giving 'moral' support to terrorist activities in India or Afghanistan, and which in turn stymes the growth potential in the sub-continent.
rant, rant, rant ... What could have been? Really?

As I see it, its the Indians who can't quite let go of partition and the lies demonizing Jinnah, with the two major political parties in India falling over themselves in trying to act the more 'patriotic' - one by expelling a veteran leader who dared to pen the truth, and the other slandering the other party for possessing such leaders.

I really see no such thing as you describe, not any more than other nations that introspect and look at history to learn lessons. In fact I find your comments here a rather crude and hate-filled caricature of Pakistan, perhaps straight out of a Hindutva or South Block training manual.

Ironic that our self-proclaimed peace-nick sought to thank such venomous bile.

But again, please, do get around to further explaining with specificity what exactly this 'lop sided' Indo-Pak relationship should look like?

P.S: Lamayuru
, is the question still a bit hazy for you? It might be, because I have probably asked both you and Gubbi that question about more times than I had to ask in this single post, only to have you wondering what the question was.
 
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@AM:
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do get around to further explaining with specificity what exactly this 'lop sided' Indo-Pak relationship should look like?
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Bola to! If you are hung up on the word "lop sided" let me back away from it. Now I said ::ALREADY::, when Pakistan and India come to any table. How can they be equals?

Gubbi has pointed out you are no saints. You have been pushing around basically anyone you could, I guess that means only Afghanistan, but had you been surrounded by weaker states you would not have been kind to them. Why I say this, look at your internal (intra province) squabbles for power. The Pakistani Punjabi far outstrips virtually everyone else in devouring state privileges and natural resources. It is the nature of the beast - as Gubbi pointed out.

Now what makes a state weak or strong, that is what this is all about is it not? You have rejected my ideas of using comparative GDPs as opposed to what capital the partners invest in a venture.

So when 2 countries sit down what kind of capital can this be? Surely no multi-lateral or bi-lateral countries forum involves hard cash as an upfront investment to determine voting rights. You go with your social standing in the comity of nations. The web has a lot of voices so can be assumed to be representative and fair. Try and search India and you might get G-8+5 and P-5, they both represent the highest tables of the world economically and in global influence and India is bidding to both; Where is Pakistan with respect to all this? You are still struggling to form a nation, how far have you come from 1947?

Forget even what I said. If you really want an equal partnership, give me one good reason/parameter as to why? Isn't it true that had you been stronger today, you would have been speaking from where I am.

Quick Question: In a bilateral engagement between Pakistan and Afghanistan to the exclusion of all else will you treat Afghanistan at power? Since that is the only country in the world that can justifiably make you proud of your achievements. But watch your back, they may catch up quite fast, since there isn't much catching up to do anyways.

P.S. Even if in a HYPOTHETICAL world, such a forum was to be based on financial investment. Pakistan may not count for much. India could sweep all voting rights. Financially wrt Pakistan India is very favorably placed.
 
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I had to pick up on the Jewish center you highlighted. How do you think India-Israel relationship is going to play in the US? If Jews are powerful in the US and the Indian lobby is co-operating with the Jewish one, do you see a permanent tilt in US towards India?

Nothing is permanent. If you cease to be of use to Israel, or perceived as inimical to their interests, you will lose their support. The US will continue to back India as long as they remain wary of China.

Every country acts in its own self-interest. Relationships and friendships only last as long as those interests don't conflict.

See this is what it has come to with an obstinate Govt in Pakistan:

It's old news. India has been trying to paint Mumbai as its 9/11. Every few days, you guys go whining to the US or EU or whatever to try and put pressure on Pakistan. It ain't working, and India knows it's not going to work. The diplomatic song and dance is mostly for domestic media consumption to show the Indian public that India is "maintaining the pressure".

Gubbi has pointed out you are no saints. You have been pushing around basically anyone you could, I guess that means only Afghanistan, but had you been surrounded by weaker states you would not have been kind to them.

India is disliked by almost all its neighbors: Sri Lanka and Bangladesh act nice to you only because they can't stand up to you. But privately they are more friendly towards Pakistan. Poor Sikkim couldn't resist your hegemonic advances and was absorbed. Pakistan and China don't need to submit to your bullying and it's been pissing you off for 60 years.

Try and search India and you might get G-8+5 and P-5, they both represent the highest tables of the world economically and in global influence and India is bidding to both;

India is being courted by the West to counter China. Don't let it go to your head and alienate your neighbors, almost all of whom hate your agrrogance. You know what they say, "Be nice to people on your way up, because you will meet them on your way down."

The West will fight China to the last Indian!

Since that is the only country in the world that can justifiably make you proud of your achievements.

Actually, we turn cartwheels every time Indian generals throw a temper tantrum at our military capabilities.
 
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Nothing is permanent.

And who would know it better than Pakistanis, after your hard landing post US withdrawal from the most strategic state of the world!


If you cease to be of use to Israel,

In the world of real politik , that will happen when India stops needing Israel - for weapons and US influence. So long as China stays, I see this staying.

or perceived as inimical to their interests, you will lose their support.

The way things are aligned now that is very very remote. I believe they helped us out with artillery shells during Kargil. Did the Chinese help you out similarly in any war? Or did they just lay off?

The US will continue to back India as long as they remain wary of China.

China believes it can do no wrong in its blazing path to achieving past glory. They are the best IP thieves the world came across. They are the world best at reverse engineering. Such aggression to get to the top causes understandable wariness in India and US.


Every country acts in its own self-interest. Relationships and friendships only last as long as those interests don't conflict.

OK. But how far out do you see the Indo-US-Israeli relation continue to grow? Atleast as far as a resurgent & increasingly bellicose China exists? And that may be for good, so I asked.


It's old news. India has been trying to paint Mumbai as its 9/11. Every few days, you guys go whining to the US or EU or whatever to try and put pressure on Pakistan. It ain't working, and India knows it's not going to work. The diplomatic song and dance is mostly for domestic media consumption to show the Indian public that India is "maintaining the pressure".


How did you flip flop from Kasab not Pakistani to Kasab Pakistani? Later going on to admit the conspiracy was hatched in Pakistan. Was that Indian pressure or pure good faith? If you will not be pressured why even try these 6-7 "innocents" just to please a pushy India? Truth is you dont have money to guarantee your existence as a state from one day to next and still you live in puffed chests under tattered clothes. Hypocrisy at its best.

India is disliked by almost all its neighbors: Sri Lanka and Bangladesh

That is true. I am told Pakistan is trying out a string of pearls by aligning with B'desh, Nepal, Bhutan, Srilanka. India is trying its own thing in Kazakistan, Afghanistan. Lets see who completes the strategic encircling maneuver first.

act nice to you only because they can't stand up to you. But privately they are more friendly towards Pakistan. Poor Sikkim couldn't resist your hegemonic advances and was absorbed. Pakistan and China don't need to submit to your bullying and it's been pissing you off for 60 years.

BS

India is being courted by the West to counter China. Don't let it go to your head and alienate your neighbors, almost all of whom hate your agrrogance. You know what they say, "Be nice to people on your way up, because you will meet them on your way down."

The West will fight China to the last Indian!

You under estimate the wily bania! I am sure your mom and sis are die hards for Ekta Kapoor stuff. Ask them and they will speak fondly of how crafty Indians can be- just like them. Dont you think some of that flows up to the strategic establishment.



Actually, we turn cartwheels every time Indian generals throw a temper tantrum at our military capabilities.

Bottom line is you have no standing of your own. In the first world. Your rant may find some echo in some Muslim countries but they dont want to loose historic linkages to India- because Pakistan can't has been acting the cry baby for a generation.
 
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And who would know it better than Pakistanis, after your hard landing post US withdrawal from the most strategic state of the world!

The wise man learns from others' mistakes. The wiser Indians know that the US is only a fair-weather friend.

In the world of real politik , that will happen when India stops needing Israel - for weapons and US influence.

Not likely to happen. You guys couldn't even handle a handful of Pakistani soldiers in Kargil without begging for Israeli military help.

So long as China stays, I see this staying.

Precisely! Nice to see you are learning. The US support for India is purely in relation to China.

I believe they helped us out with artillery shells during Kargil. Did the Chinese help you out similarly in any war?

UAVs. Having to beg foreign armies to help out in your wars is not something to brag about. Pakistan is more than capable to handling the Indian military threat on its own.

China believes it can do no wrong in its blazing path to achieving past glory. They are the best IP thieves the world came across. They are the world best at reverse engineering. Such aggression to get to the top causes understandable wariness in India and US.

Anti-China rant notwithstanding, do you have any idea how many of India's "indigenous" capabilities are the result of reverse engineering?

OK. But how far out do you see the Indo-US-Israeli relation continue to grow? Atleast as far as a resurgent & increasingly bellicose China exists? And that may be for good, so I asked.

As long as the perceived benefits outweigh the actual negatives. Nothing stays the same, so it would be fruitless to speculate about the future.

How did you flip flop from Kasab not Pakistani to Kasab Pakistani? Later going on to admit the conspiracy was hatched in Pakistan. Was that Indian pressure or pure good faith? If you will not be pressured why even try these 6-7 "innocents" just to please a pushy India?

I don't follow the minutiae of this saga. I would let the courts handle this case, free from political interference by any government, and abide by their judgement.

Truth is you dont have money to guarantee your existence as a state from one day to next and still you live in puffed chests under tattered clothes. Hypocrisy at its best.

You have a tendency to slip into irrelevant rants. If you can't refute a point or stay on topic, best to remain silent.

You under estimate the wily bania! I am sure your mom and sis are die hards for Ekta Kapoor stuff. Ask them and they will speak fondly of how crafty Indians can be- just like them. Dont you think some of that flows up to the strategic establishment.

Global geopolitics is not Bollywood. Both our countries have smart people, but the question is how many of them go into politics?
 
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@Developero:
How do you multiquote? I have not been able to figure out. Some help would be appreciated. I have resorted to a stop gap highlighting inline.

The wise man learns from others' mistakes. The wiser Indians know that the US is only a fair-weather friend.

Yup. So they will try and extract all they can while the weather is fair. Just as you did and cried hoarse later. I assume as an establishment Pakistan is more than eager to get back in bed with the US. Too bad you lost your leverage as gateway to China & got relegated to the dustbins of history, until war on terror came along.

Not likely to happen. You guys couldn't even handle a handful of Pakistani soldiers in Kargil without begging for Israeli military help.

Sad but true. Speaks volumes about the courage of the Pakistani soldier doesn't it? The lanky Pathan, the hard fighting Baloch. The ones that you refuse to accept as your own dead.

Precisely! Nice to see you are learning. The US support for India is purely in relation to China.

Yes thanx. In this case we learn from your experience. Just as you did with DRDO to have no research all buys for a critical thing like defence. I hope you are hedging your risks. If China was to fail you as a friend, who can you turn to?

UAVs. Having to beg foreign armies to help out in your wars is not something to brag about. Pakistan is more than capable to handling the Indian military threat on its own.

I am not bragging. I am merely stating fact. We saught Israeli help, and I am not being red faced about it. Dont let the chip in your shoulder prevent you from seeing the truth.

Anti-China rant notwithstanding, do you have any idea how many of India's "indigenous" capabilities are the result of reverse engineering?


nope

As long as the perceived benefits outweigh the actual negatives. Nothing stays the same, so it would be fruitless to speculate about the future.

granted

I don't follow the minutiae of this saga. I would let the courts handle this case, free from political interference by any government, and abide by their judgement.

so you are saying the judiciary is free from political interference in Pakistan? Is today the first day of the fourth month of the year?

You have a tendency to slip into irrelevant rants. If you can't refute a point or stay on topic, best to remain silent.

your decision. when you dont have anything to say, you will have to shut up. O! I must not hurt you. When you have nothing to say, you have nothing to say. Period.

Global geopolitics is not Bollywood. Both our countries have smart people, but the question is how many of them go into politics?

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no way i cant see ny thing like to be a big brother tryin to steal younger bros water and tryin to take life wat a idea daft
 
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@Developero:
How do you multiquote? I have not been able to figure out. Some help would be appreciated. I have resorted to a stop gap highlighting inline.

Just cut-and-paste the [q uote=xxx;###] and [/quote] markers around the quoted text.

Yup. So they will try and extract all they can while the weather is fair. Just as you did and cried hoarse later. I assume as an establishment Pakistan is more than eager to get back in bed with the US. Too bad you lost your leverage as gateway to China & got relegated to the dustbins of history, until war on terror came along.

Our relationship with China remains intact regardless of US involvement. Pakistan/China relationship goes back to the 1970s, at a time when Pakista/US relationship was doing just fine.

I have already informed you about the basis of Pak/China relationship but, clearly, a few posts here cannot outdo a lifetime of Indian media indoctrination and misinformation.

There is no "dustbin of history", only a dustbin of relationships. The Pak/US relationship has a rocky history, and our politicians are learning that all political friendships are those of convenience. India is no different than any other country. If you think India will not be discarded past its use-by date, you are in for a rude shock.

Speaks volumes about the courage of the Pakistani soldier doesn't it? The lanky Pathan, the hard fighting Baloch.

Absolutely! We are exceedingly proud of our fighters who reduced the not-so-mighty Indian military to beg for Israeli help.

The ones that you refuse to accept as your own dead.

"Inredible India" media again?

Yes thanx. In this case we learn from your experience.

No, You finally acknowledged that US interest in India is purely as a countermeasure to China.

If China was to fail you as a friend, who can you turn to?

We are diversifying our defense base, including ramping up indigenous capabilities. As for foreign alliances, we keep our options open. Indians will be the last to know. As always.

I am not bragging. I am merely stating fact. We saught Israeli help, and I am not being red faced about it. Dont let the chip in your shoulder prevent you from seeing the truth.

That's not a chip on my shoudler, it's just a ice-compress. I strained my shoulder by laughing so hard at the not-so-mighty Indian military machine.

so you are saying the judiciary is free from political interference in Pakistan?

Musharraf learnt the answer the hard way. If you distrust the Pakistani government, militray, people and judiciary, then you are so blinded by hatred and Indian media brainwashing that any sane discussion is impossible.

Better learn to accept it. The world does not revolve around Indian media conspiracy theories. Judicial process, especially in other countries, cannot be bullied into satisfying India media's hysterical outbursts.

Is today the first day of the fourth month of the year?

Sleepy time?

your decision. when you dont have anything to say, you will have to shut up. O! I must not hurt you. When you have nothing to say, you have nothing to say. Period.

I respond to factually inaccurate statements, or debatable opinions. Reading your off-topic rants is amusing because they betray your desperation.
 
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