Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[Cliftonite]

Muhajirs make up a small minority of Pakistan. It's like saying the White Western European English have racial connections to Africa because there are a significant numbers of blacks living in the UK. In reality both have no connections to one another.

We're more in number than Baloch or the Azad Kashmiris. 8-10% of Pakistani population.

I don't want Pakistan to change its policies or do anything for Indian Muslims. It shouldn't. It would create more problems for them actually.

 

[peagle]

Let's be clear...Pakistan First should not be Establishment First.

Pakistan consists of 25 million individuals, thousand of years old culture, rich land mass......it does not limit to few individuals who think "Me First". What Pakistan is today is due to the blunders made by these individuals in the last 73 years....from a progressive country with modern culture that I witnessed, we have gone down the drain....and have made ourselves one of the least liked people of one of the least respected state on earth.

Nationalism means love for the land, it's people, culture.....it comes from within the masses and cannot be forced upon them.... Built you system first...make Pakistan a welfare state...change will come...
Untill few power / money hungry vultures (both politicians and Generals) keep deciding our fate...Pakistan will keep slipping into abyss.

25million?
or 232 million

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

We're more in number than Baloch or the Azad Kashmiris. 8-10% of Pakistani population.

I don't want Pakistan to change its policies or do anything for Indian Muslims. It shouldn't. It would create more problems for them actually.

So then at least 90% of Pakistan's population have got 0 to do with indian so called "Muslims".

Around 11% of the UK population is non-White. Does that now make the White Western European English non-White?..........

 

[Cliftonite]

So then at least 90% of Pakistan's population have got 0 to do with indian so called "Muslims".

Around 11% of the UK population is non-White. Does that now make the White Western European English non-White?..........

Who is saying you're Indian you weirdo? I am talking about myself. And I am not Indian. I am from Indian UP descent.

You're a brown Northwestern South Asian. You probably look like the men who run chicken tikka shops and one pound fish shops in Britain.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Who is saying you're Indian you weirdo? I am talking about myself. And I am not Indian. I am from Indian UP descent.

You're a brown Northwestern South Asian. You probably look like the men who run chicken tikka shops and one pound fish shops in Britain.

How do you know what I look like? What evidence have you based that on? What chicken tikka or one pound fish shop are you talking about?

If you are of indian descent, are you confirming that you are a biological indian?

PS Thanks for confirming that you are an indian false flagger. Evidence attached..... ..

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

@Cliftonite

Hey cliffy, thanks for proving that you are an indian false flagger..........

 

[Baibars_1260]

Who is saying you're Indian you weirdo? I am talking about myself. And I am not Indian. I am from Indian UP descent.

You're a brown Northwestern South Asian. You probably look like the men who run chicken tikka shops and one pound fish shops in Britain.

Let's get out of this "female dogging " cycle,
I respect the views of @PAKISTANFOREVER for different reason.
Pakistan should have nothing to do with Indian Muslims because it is neither good for Pakistan nor is it good for Indian Muslims,
- It is not good for Pakistan because we become psychologically hostage to the plight of Indian Muslim. Our enemy knows that and torments the Indian Muslims even more. There is nothing Pakistan can do for Indian Muslims.

-It is not good for Indian Muslims because whatever little support they get from secular Indians vanishes once they become identified as Pakistanis or Pakistani 5th columnists.
Even without Pakistani sympathy they get penalized on behalf of Pakistan. Example: Every time Pakistan wins a cricket match against India, a vicious round of pogroms and lynchings targeting Indian Muslims occur throughout India. So from an Indian Muslim point of view complete cessation of all sporting links with Pakistan is the best thing that happened.

@PAKISTANFOREVER , @khansaheeb
I don't believe Indian Muslims are racially inferior. Rohilla Pathans settled in the Kayamgunj area in UP are light skinned , often with grey eyes and are remarkably similar to their Pashtun brethren far away. The Syeds, Sheikhs, and Malliks of UP, Bihar, and Bengal are usually light skinned with light brown, or green ( karanji ) eyes.
Swimmer and diving champion Nafisa Ali is an example.
Some Hyderabad Muslims have a lot of Arab blood in them with distinctly Middle Eastern features ( Example: tennis star Sania Mirza, NDTV anchor Umm Kulsum ) . The upper class Ashraf Indian Muslims are identical in race, looks, culture, to their Pakistani counterparts and match or exceed them in education and wealth.
Example : Former Indian Foreign Minister Salman Khursheed can give Mehmood Quraishi a run for his money. Both have been educated abroad and both have wealth and significant assets.
I know an ex-pat Ashraf Indian Muslim from UP who dared to go to the Ancestry . Com website and order a DNA test as a challenge to his Hindu friends, asserting that he was as Indian as them. He got a nasty shock when the DNA analysis showed no South Asian DNA type. He was 60 % Middle Eastern, and 25% Central Asian. He was never the same again as his Hindu friends hooted and booed him into shame.
The Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid Syed Shah Bukhari ( deceased) was light skinned with grey eyes in sharp contrast to the late Maulana Dr.Israr Ahmed . Defense analyst Zaid Hamid is of pure Bihari Syed Muslim stock, identical to his counterparts in Patna, India.

The pass-e-maenda Ajlaf or OBC Indian Muslims are racially similar to their Hindu counterparts and are generally dark skinned,
Example: Mewati, Meos, Julaha, Dhuniya, Rangreza, Rayeen, Kunjra Muslims of Northern India. Their counterparts in Pakistan would be dark skinned Rangars, Manganiyars, Lohars, etc.
@PAKISTANFOREVER waiting for your comments on this section of my post meant exclusively for you.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

View attachment 709417

Let's get out of this "female dogging " cycle,
I respect the views of @PAKISTANFOREVER for different reason.
Pakistan should have nothing to do with Indian Muslims because it is neither good for Pakistan nor is it good for Indian Muslims,
- It is not good for Pakistan because we become psychologically hostage to the plight of Indian Muslim. Our enemy knows that and torments the Indian Muslims even more. There is nothing Pakistan can do for Indian Muslims.

-It is not good for Indian Muslims because whatever little support they get from secular Indians vanishes once they become identified as Pakistanis or Pakistani 5th columnists.
Even without Pakistani sympathy they get penalized on behalf of Pakistan. Example: Every time Pakistan wins a cricket match against India, a vicious round of pogroms and lynchings targeting Indian Muslims occur throughout India. So from an Indian Muslim point of view complete cessation of all sporting links with Pakistan is the best thing that happened.

@PAKISTANFOREVER , @khansaheeb
I don't believe Indian Muslims are racially inferior. Rohilla Pathans settled in the Kayamgunj area in UP are light skinned , often with grey eyes and are remarkably similar to their Pashtun brethren far away. The Syeds, Sheikhs, and Malliks of UP, Bihar, and Bengal are usually light skinned with light brown, or green ( karanji ) eyes.
Swimmer and diving champion Nafisa Ali is an example.
Some Hyderabad Muslims have a lot of Arab blood in them with distinctly Middle Eastern features ( Example: tennis star Sania Mirza, NDTV anchor Umm Kulsum ) . The upper class Ashraf Indian Muslims are identical in race, looks, culture, to their Pakistani counterparts and match or exceed them in education and wealth.
Example : Former Indian Foreign Minister Salman Khursheed can give Mehmood Quraishi a run for his money. Both have been educated abroad and both have wealth and significant assets.
I know an ex-pat Ashraf Indian Muslim from UP who dared to go to the Ancestry . Com website and order a DNA test as a challenge to his Hindu friends, asserting that he was as Indian as them. He got a nasty shock when the DNA analysis showed no South Asian DNA type. He was 60 % Middle Eastern, and 25% Central Asian. He was never the same again as his Hindu friends hooted and booed him into shame.
The pass-e-maenda Ajlaf or OBC Indian Muslims are racially similar to their Hindu counterparts and are generally dark skinned,
Example: Mewati, Meos, Julaha, Dhuniya, Rangreza, Rayeen, Kunjra Muslims of Northern India. Their counterparts in Pakistan would be dark skinned Rangars, Manganiyars, Lohars, etc.
@PAKISTANFOREVER waiting for your comments on this section of my post meant exclusively for you.

But also remember that a significant number of indian Mulsims are just as anti-Pakistani as are indian hindus and sikhs.

Ignore @Cliftonite as he is an indian false flagger:

 

[Baibars_1260]

View attachment 709417
But also remember that a significant number of indian Mulsims are just as anti-Pakistani as are indian hindus and sikhs.
Ignore @Cliftonite as he is an indian false flagger:

I edited my post as you replied. Please reread.
"Significant numbers " of Indian Muslims are NOT anti-Pakistani.
There is in-fact significant intermarriage between Pakistani and Indian Muslim expat populations which has overtaken the once common "Karachi Lucknow " marriage nexus of the 1960s. Expat Indian Muslims are marrying into Pakistani families as never before. The same cannot be said of Bangladeshis who differ from Pakistanis in language race and culture.

There are 5 Hindu converts in the pay of the fascist regime who are retaining their Muslim names who come on TV and speak against Pakistan. 5 out 190 million.
This is far less than the hostile section of the populations of Afghanistan and Bangladesh who speak against Pakistan. We can go on to discuss the racially similar TIP Pashtun Insaf chauvinists and BLA later.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I edited my post as you replied. Please reread.
"Significant numbers " of Indian Muslims are NOT anti-Pakistani.
There is in-fact significant intermarriage between Pakistani and Indian Muslim expat populations which has overtaken the once common "Karachi Lucknow " marriage nexus of the 1960s. Expat Indian Muslims are marrying into Pakistani families as never before. The same cannot be said of Bangladeshis who differ from Pakistanis in language race and culture.

There are 5 Hindu converts in the pay of the fascist regime who are retaining their Muslim names who come on TV and speak against Pakistan. 5 out 190 million.

Here in London in the the UK, Pakistanis are also intermarrying with Iranians and Afghans in large numbers too. Your point being?

 

[Baibars_1260]

Here in London in the the UK, Pakistanis are also intermarrying with Iranians and Afghans in large numbers too. Your point being?

My point being:
That Indian Muslims are not racially inferior, are far more culturally flexible than Iranians and Afghans , can speak Urdu and there are far more marriages between Indian Muslims and Pakistanis than the odd Iranian or Afghan nuptials.
The Ashraf Indian Muslims are educationally and financially equivalent of their Pakistani counterparts. The AK-47 toting Afghan or the chest beating maatam Iranians are not.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

My point being:
That Indian Muslims are not racially inferior, are far more culturally flexible than Iranians and Afghans , can speak Urdu and there are far more marriages between Indian Muslims and Pakistanis than the odd Iranian or Afghan nuptials.
The Ashraf Indian Muslims are educationally and financially equivalent of their Pakistani counterparts. The AK-47 toting Afghan or the chest beating maatam Iranians are not.

Can you back up your ANY of your claims with ANY facts or evidence?. Although anecdotal, I have seen many young Pakistanis in London marry Afghans, Iranians, Romanians etc. Most Afghans can speak urdu too. Haven't seen any Pakistanis married to any indian Muslims though.


PS At least 40% of Pakistanis have Afghan/Iranian heritage. indian Muslims don't. They are racially and genetically the same as indian hindus and sikhs.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You don't understand my question. I am not asking whether all citizens are free to worship their god or not? I am just asking whether your Nationalist identity is dominant on your religious identity? You guys keep ignoring my question and post a loads of BS here.

Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and for the Pakistani Muslims, Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive.


During the struggle for the freedom(and even today), the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars and political activists was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


Hussain Ahmed Madani (The Rector of Darul Uloom Deoband) and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", (i.e. despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India were but one nation). The proponents of composite nationalism believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indian before being (Non-Indian) Muslim ... This theory created and propounded by modernist and reformist Muslims (like Sir Syed) was inspired by Western Political Theories (of John Lock, Thomas Paine, Milton etc.).... It in a way advocated a Pan-Islamism that was restricted by geographical boundaries of the Nation state (of India, and now Pakistan).


And there were others (like Maududi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both. Few of them advocated "Pan-Islamism"


The opinion that Islam and Nationalism are essentially mutually exclusive has always been the minority opinion among the contemporary scholars of Islam.

Hope that helps clear up your confusion

 

[Cliftonite]

There are 5 Hindu converts in the pay of the fascist regime who are retaining their Muslim names who come on TV and speak against Pakistan.

Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi is one for sure. Who are the others? Rubika Liaquat? Shehzad Poonawalla?

 

[Baibars_1260]

Can you back up your ANY of your claims with ANY facts or evidence?. Although anecdotal, I have seen many young Pakistanis in London marry Afghans, Iranians, Romanians etc. Most Afghans can speak urdu too. Haven't seen any Pakistanis married to any indian Muslims though.

Perhaps you live in Bradford, or Manchester. There are significant cases of Thalasemia there .The U.K. NHS has done a study on intermarriages with statistics that you can find in the Lancet and British Journal of Medicine. This thread is concerned with Pakistani Nationalism and Pakistani Identity on which we are generally in agreement. We are not discussing genetics .

PS At least 40% of Pakistanis have Afghan/Iranian heritage. indian Muslims don't. They are racially and genetically the same as indian hindus and sikhs.

What is your evidence for that?
Any anthropological studies?
I already told you the difference between Ashraf Indian Muslims and Ajlaf Muslims.
The Sindhis, and , South Punjabis don't look like Afghans. Culturally there will always be differences. A fair skinned Syed Muslim lady physician from Lucknow in India is unlikely to marry a Rangar, Lohar, or Bhatti worker from South Punjab .

In UK there are very few Indian Muslim taxi drivers, or grocery shop owners ( largely from Mirpur). Indian Muslims are well represented ( in fact beyond their population breakup ) in the medical profession. A study was done by the by the UK Ministry of Education tracking the path of Indian and Pakistani students, Up to the 5th Form Indian and Pakistani origin students surged ahead equally often exceeding their British counterparts. Then Pakistani students slacked off basically because their nuclear families are compromised by peer pressure from grandparents who often migrate over to live with the family.
Culturally different peer pressure puts stress on the children. Also ghetto complex such as in South-hall and Bradford.

Indian Muslims don't suffer this handicap and match the academic achievements of their Hindu counterparts. Which is why they do better. Hence there are fewer fish and chip shop Indian Muslim workers. Indian Muslims are unnecessarily snooty over their Pakistani brethren, and this is condemnable,

This analogy falls flat in the USA with no ghettos as such. Pakistanis do very well here.

My point:
Conditions matter. Not race or culture.