Pakistan finalized Z-10ME Helicopters deal with China : Journalist Sumaira Khan

[Beast]

No, the 3 models that were delivered and tested in Pakistan before 2018.

Have the Z-10ME been delivered and tested in Pakistan to date? I've not heard of such reports. It's all very well to say Z-10ME has improved but it needs to be put through rigorous paces in Pakistan.

I think PA has no problem for Z-10 gunship operating system , suitability in Pakistan climate, payload and performance. Z-10 is much heavier armour and the only thing that loses out to T-129K is engine output which is remedy by new Z-10ME with improve engine.

If not, why no lengthy retest phase for Z-10ME and instead opt for direct purchase and induction soon,

 

[HAIDER]

I think PA has no problem for Z-10 gunship operating system , suitability in Pakistan climate, payload and performance. Z-10 is much heavier armour and the only thing that loses out to T-129K is engine output which is remedy by new Z-10ME with improve engine.

If not, why no lengthy retest phase for Z-10ME and instead opt for direct purchase and induction soon,

Actually, Z10 failed the Siachin type area endurance test last time, plus some harness issues on reaching a certain altitude.

Its 2017 article .

Pakistan may have selected the Turkish Aerospace Industries’ (TAI) T129 ATAK helicopter over the Chinese Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10 and sales negotiations are expected to start soon.

Both helicopters’ manufacturers were in the race to supply the Pakistan Army with a light attack helicopter in excess of 50 units with an initial negotiation involving 30 choppers. Three Z-10 helicopter gunship has been undergoing user trials since 2015 while the Pakistan Army put the T129 ATAK through rigorous hot-and-high performance tests starting June 2016.

Reports in various media said the performance of the T129 met the parameters set out by the Pakistan Army but the Chinese Z-10 helicopter did not as its engine is not powerful enough to support the helicopter in its attack configuration. The helicopter is fitted with two WZ-9 turboshaft engines that prevent Z-10 from carrying its maximum payload in attack configuration, the reports said.

Turkish sources at the Paris Air Show last week said that the deal with Pakistan “is all but sewn up” with the Pakistani authorities ready to begin commercial negotiations. Pakistan wants to be able to manufacture parts as well as assemble the chopper in its Pakistan Aeronautics Complex (PAC) facility.

Significantly, the Pakistani Chief of Army Staff General Qamar Javed Bajwa had visited TAI while on an official visit to Turkey last week where he inspected and flew in the TAI T129 ATAK attack helicopter, according to a Pakistani MoD press release.

At IDEF 2017 show in Turkey in May, TAI and PAC had signed a memorandum-of-understanding (MoU) followed by the visit to Pakistan by TAI chief Dr. Temel Kotil, who reiterated TAI’s commitment to enable PAC to manufacture parts for the T129 and possibly assemble T129 ATAKs.

The T129 is an upgraded variant of the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta with Turkish companies such as Aselsan, Roketsan and Havelsan having developed weapons and subsystems for the chopper.

 

[dBSPL]

I think PA has no problem for Z-10 gunship operating system , suitability in Pakistan climate, payload and performance. Z-10 is much heavier armour and the only thing that loses out to T-129K is engine output which is remedy by new Z-10ME with improve engine.

If not, why no lengthy retest phase for Z-10ME and instead opt for direct purchase and induction soon,

The max power outputs you see in the engine specs are related to emergency and take-off power. Continuous output powers and optimum operating ranges are different. So it would be very superficial to reduce this issue only to the engine output power.

Also, how did you get the idea that the T-129 was ahead by only one factor in the pre-bid evaluation process and won the tender for that reason alone? Is there a report published by Pakistani authorities on this subject or are you just getting an opinion on forum-level speculative stuff?

T-129 is a armed reconnaissance/attack platform which operative efficiency has been proven in Pakistani field tests and even in TAF military operations closely followed by Pakistani authorities, and there are no soaped figures among its specs. Whatever written in specs, it actually is. Z-10? Undoubtedly a great helicopter. I don't have any criticism about it. But when marketing the Z-10M, it's useless to underestimate the T-129.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Z10ME will complement with some turkish attack helicopters as ToT will not given by Chinese.. so Pakistan need basic ToT in domain of helicopters too for futures ahead

 

[HAIDER]

The max power outputs you see in the engine specs are related to emergency and take-off power. Continuous output powers and optimum operating ranges are different. So it would be very superficial to reduce this issue only to the engine output power.

Also, how did you get the idea that the T-129 was ahead by only one factor in the pre-bid evaluation process and won the tender for that reason alone? Is there a report published by Pakistani authorities on this subject or are you just getting an opinion on forum-level speculative stuff?

T-129 is a armed reconnaissance/attack platform which operative efficiency has been proven in Pakistani field tests and even in TAF military operations closely followed by Pakistani authorities, and there are no soaped figures among its specs. Whatever written in specs, it actually is. Z-10? Undoubtedly a great helicopter. I don't have any criticism about it. But when marketing the Z-10M, it's useless to underestimate the T-129.

I think the Chinese want Pakistan to get T129, that's how they get direct access to the latest western tech. Because T129 is very effective in mountain war, a very stable platform in high and low wind pressure, handling in high altitude. Right now Pakistan has no attack helicopter to cover the Nothern mountains.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Reports in various media said the performance of the T129 met the parameters set out by the Pakistan Army but the Chinese Z-10 helicopter did not as its engine is not powerful enough to support the helicopter in its attack configuration. The helicopter is fitted with two WZ-9 turboshaft engines that prevent Z-10 from carrying its maximum payload in attack configuration, the reports said.

Yes that's exactly the issue.

I think the Chinese want Pakistan to get T129, that's how they get direct access to the latest western tech. Because T129 is very effective in mountain war, a very stable platform in high and low wind pressure, handling in high altitude. Right now Pakistan has no attack helicopter to cover the Nothern mountains.

Well that's highly speculative if not groundless given China has already solved the only issue (engine) let alone the T129 deal is way beyond Chinese control, not to mention PLA's increasing interests in alternatives like unmanned helos. Now this rumour is almost completely discredited after PA officially denied any discontinuation of T129 deal, rest assured this lack of attack helos to cover Northern mountains will be solved sometime down the road.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Though the T129's primary challenge at the end of the day came to be the engine licensing - there were other smaller sub-components and electronics that could have also posed a challenge for PAA and Turkey. Turkey is still a NATO country, and has many European and US alliances within their defence sector. Though sad to see that T129 did not come I think this is a blessing as it would have been an ongoing issue for us under ITAR (but there is a big BUT...that is best left unspoken). Europe and US are no goes for Pakistan for defence procurement.

Turkish helis will be back on the card in 2025. Not now. Lets not shake this tree too much. Lets things that are happening behind the scene continue without the glare of media. Only small indication I'd give is listen to exactly the words used by DG ISPR.

 

[aziqbal]

so what engine is the Philippines using for the T129? US allowed export to Philippines but not Pakistan ?

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I think the Z-10s should have given the priority over the VT-4s. We need gunship helis not just for LOC but afghan border sometimes requires quick response. The checkposts can only identify infiltration, they cannot effectively chase heavily armed militants in the darkness of night. The drones are slow / carries much lower payload. Fighter jets are too costly Op / plus not suited for this role of chasing individuals.

See this Apache action on Taliban:

What we are watching is a war crime. The initial hits are legal. But an injured solider not posing any threat or danger is not a legitimate target. Sad to see humanity lost when killing becomes a video game.

 

[aziqbal]

What we are watching is a war crime. The initial hits are legal. But an injured solider not posing any threat or danger is not a legitimate target. Sad to see humanity lost when killing becomes a video game.

which is why US lost the war

outcome is result of their actions

 

[Scorpiooo]

I think the Chinese want Pakistan to get T129, that's how they get direct access to the latest western tech. Because T129 is very effective in mountain war, a very stable platform in high and low wind pressure, handling in high altitude. Right now Pakistan has no attack helicopter to cover the Nothern mountains.

Russian tech is very stable in high altitude and hot climates, Chinese have access to all Russian stuff

 

[HAIDER]

Russian tech is very stable in high altitude and hot climates, Chinese have access to all Russian stuff

No, recently acquired Iraqi attack helicopters faced some sensor issues during high heat desert operations. Iraq wanted to buy Turkish TB2 and 12 T129 . According to Iraqi officers older version of Mi24 was much easier to maintain and better the newer version. which they got in 2010.
Even US AH64 faces technical issues in the Iraqi desert.

 

[Scorpiooo]

No, recently acquired Iraqi attack helicopters faced some sensor issues during high heat desert operations. Iraq wanted to buy Turkish TB2 and 12 T129 . According to Iraqi officers older version of Mi24 was much easier to maintain and better the newer version. which they got in 2010/

Do you really think iraq can go Turkish equipment with out approval of American. This can just rumour

Whats the case with new Russian helis, MI 17 is used alomst every country

 

[HAIDER]

so what engine is the Philippines using for the T129? US allowed export to Philippines but not Pakistan ?

US granted the lic for Phillpine procurement.

Do you really think iraq can go Turkish equipment with out approval of American. This can just rumour

Whats the case with new Russian helis, MI 17 is used alomst every country

Mi17 is the best low-maintenance all-terrain multipurpose helicopter. Yet no match of this single type of model in the helicopter making history. But has lots of variants of this helicopter.

 

[Ali_Baba]

so what engine is the Philippines using for the T129? US allowed export to Philippines but not Pakistan ?

Yes - because Pakistan is under sanctions from the USA - not Turkieye or Philipines. The sale/export to the Philipines proves this point entirely.