Pakistan Faces Threat From Terrorism, Not India:US

[jeypore]

If you believe that these brances of govt. act in a solitary manner, with no influence, input, lobbying, pressure, upon each other...then what can I say...It shows naiveity.

In fact, that is a good question, that these branches do act solitararily, That is the genius behind the fore-fathers of America. Of course in this system you do have handshakes in back offices, but it is system that does not deviate much from the mean.

 

[AchtungSpitfire]

Edit. My Bad Wrong thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/war-te...rested-uk-terrorism-charges-6.html#post359419

 

[jeypore]

However the executive branch acted on information provided by the Military and intelligence.

One could argue that governments in Pakistan also formulate policy based on information and analysis provided by the Military and intelligence agencies, and therefore are no different (except when the government is the military).

There is hugh differance between pakistan politics and American, There are numerous articles based on the power structure in Pakistan, It always has been the head of the army or the Army.

Army in Pakistan can negate any policy made by the civilian government. Infact, Army's personals and the organization are the largest land owners in Pakistan, I wonder where that money comes from, I guess ear marks, right!!!

Back to your answer about policy, if the civil government and the armys policy do not match, there is a high expectation of coup, and Pakistan's history has shown this time and time again. This clearly is one of the best indicator of Pakistans democracy and the power structure.

 

[alumrock]

to all those who blame the muslims there were no suicide bombings when the taliban ruled afghanistan for the few tears it did, suicide bombings started after the americans started their phoney wars for their own agendas, until you fools realise and make a stand against america aggression and clear terrorism this bullshit war on terror will continue ,

Ben Gurion wrote about his thoughts regarding Pakistan in the Jewish Chronicle, 1967:
"The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.
"This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan.
"Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work therefrom against Pakistan.
"It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans."

 

[PeacefulIndian]

to all those who blame the muslims there were no suicide bombings when the taliban ruled afghanistan for the few tears it did, suicide bombings started after the americans started their phoney wars for their own agendas, until you fools realise and make a stand against america aggression and clear terrorism this bullshit war on terror will continue ,

Ben Gurion wrote about his thoughts regarding Pakistan in the Jewish Chronicle, 1967:
"The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.
"This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan.
"Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work therefrom against Pakistan.
"It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans."

We must realize, we must realize...What? We only realize that Pakistan army is giving in, terrorists are running amok all over Pakistan. And US, Hindus, India, Jews haven't got a thing to do with it.

I don't give a sh!t to what a leader said about a country back in 1967. And so should you. I fail to understand this mentality. Even more foolish than the ostrich with its head in sand. If at all you have to make a stand against somebody's aggression, make sure you choose the right 'somebody' .

 

[maverick2009]

If the rest of the global community kept up the enimty that exists TODAY and has existed between Indo Pak since 1947 WHERE WOULD THE Cold War be today. Wat wud the relations be between Germany and Europe or Japan & Asia.

Mature nations assess as times change. Today Germany & Europe IS A RICH PROSPEROUS CONTINENT. Surely india and pakistan Look Listen and Learn.

For get the tribal feuds if you wish to survive and grow. Or there may well be disintergration and you will get left behind the rest of the world.

 

[Twain]

I'm curious what Pakistan is going to do. In the fear of losing the struggle for Kashmir and fear of Indian aggression will you instead lose your entire country due to aggression from inside?

Assuming India would use the distraction of the terrorists to attack Pakistan, what would be their goal? To conquer Pakistan? What would they do with it then? It would take millions of troops and decades of fighting to even remotely control the territory of Pakistan. Is it their goal to take all of Kashmir? Assuming India would again take advantage of the situation to take all of Kashmir, which is worse, possibly losing Kashmir or losing control of your own country?

Looking in from the outside, I doubt very much that the nations of the world would tolerate India taking all of Kashmir while Pakistan is fighting extremists inside it's own borders.

In my opinion, the government of Pakistan and the army has to stand up and start fighting back. If things continue as they are now, in a short while there may not be much left of Pakistan to fight for.

 

[IceCold]

We must realize, we must realize...What? We only realize that Pakistan army is giving in, terrorists are running amok all over Pakistan. And US, Hindus, India, Jews haven't got a thing to do with it.

What you realize well its nothing more then BS. PA hasn't given in to terrorists what it has given in to is peoples wishes in swat and there is a huge different between the two. Is that so hard for your puny mind to understand.
I have replied to another Indian in another thread, i would add a part of it here, Taliban take their power from the ordinary people and they have none in the rest of Pakistan because people of Pakistan are in fact very liberal minded and they don't support religious fanatics so my suggestion to you and other Indians is don't loose your sleep over something that is not going to happen, not until somehow mysterious the whole of the PA disappears from the face of the planet and the whole Pakistani nation decides to become a Mullah.

 

[IceCold]

I'm curious what Pakistan is going to do. In the fear of losing the struggle for Kashmir and fear of Indian aggression will you instead lose your entire country due to aggression from inside?

Assuming India would use the distraction of the terrorists to attack Pakistan, what would be their goal? To conquer Pakistan? What would they do with it then? It would take millions of troops and decades of fighting to even remotely control the territory of Pakistan. Is it their goal to take all of Kashmir? Assuming India would again take advantage of the situation to take all of Kashmir, which is worse, possibly losing Kashmir or losing control of your own country?

Looking in from the outside, I doubt very much that the nations of the world would tolerate India taking all of Kashmir while Pakistan is fighting extremists inside it's own borders.

In my opinion, the government of Pakistan and the army has to stand up and start fighting back. If things continue as they are now, in a short while there may not be much left of Pakistan to fight for.

Save the BS for BR. India's objective to destabilize Pakistan is not because it wants to conquer it,its not instead of a threat being neutralized so that the dream of a greater India could be accomplished and more over together with the US can put focus entirely on China. Pakistan for now is considered a hick up in achieving that goal both by India and the US and hence the plans to destabilize it to an extent that it disintegrates.

 

[Hellfire]

WOT is suicidol not only for Pakistan also our neighbours (India), imagine if talaban got Nuke then who will be their first target Israel or India.
Most effected country due to WOT is Pakistan ,that is reason majority Pakistanis are against this WOT.
US should focus on OBL not on Pakistan.

Well it is suicidal right now, but if you were to stop your operations against them, it wont be suicidal anymore, it shall be a full blown suicide!

 

[Hellfire]

In that case, I am waiting for US/UN guarantees against any Indian aggression against Pakistan.

Put their money where their mouth is.

That said, the threat from extremism is the overriding one at the moment, and has to be addressed.

Agnostic

While I agree with your assesment of need to maintain adequate force levels to counter Indian "agressions" (now 1948,1965 & 1971 was marked by Pakistani forces launching pre-emptive strikes rather unsuccessfully ,I am yet to see India launching the first strikes apart from Siachen conflict), at present the force levels can be reduced to bare minimal while majority can be inducted for operations against Taliban which is the more imminent and graver threat.

Nuclear weapons as of now provide adequate protection to Pakistan from being conventionally overwhelmed. The threshold is understandably low in such a scenario and although India can take the strikes and survive while obliterating much of Pakistan, the idea is somehow unpalatable to even a hawk!

The magnitude of disaster will force India to ensure that Pakistan is in no way threatened or feels threatened while it is involved in operations against the said groups. In addition to this, if you were to see the wind pattern, ultimately in a nuclear conflict, India will continue to suffer for quite some time. The whole scenario is best left unimagined.

IMO PA can withdraw troops to work against the Talibs and ensure that these elements are rooted out and the people of Pakistan are given the best possible secuirty - of the PA.

 

[Hellfire]

Man General David Petraeus can shove this theory of his up his ***. This WOT has brought us nothing but misery and its high time, reject the damn ******* aid and get out of WOT. Aid other then going to personal pockets have never really being put to its original use.

IceCold

That is why the US Congress and Administration has put a rider of accountability for the funds. It has dual purpose - to check diversion of funds meant for Anti-terror purposes for bolstering of Pakistani strike capabilities vis-a-vis India as also to ensure that the politicians dont exclusively get economic aid for their "poverty"

 

[Hellfire]

If its fictitious, then I repeat my earlier point:

"I am waiting for US/UN guarantees against any Indian aggression against Pakistan.

Put their money where their mouth is."

The mere fact that India refrained from launching srtikes in a post-Mumbai scenario is sufficient enough to drive home the point that Pakistan has nothing to worry from this side till as such NO ELEMENT WITHIN PAKISTANI ESTABLISHMENT IS ACTIVELY SUPPORTING THE SAID TERROR ATTACK IN INDIA and in addition that there is a comprehensive policy adopted and implemented by GoP/PA/ISI to root out all such elements that are seen actively involved evenly remotely with groups associated with either Taliban/Kashmir oriented groups.

In addition the need of the hour is to prevent collection of donations under the head of "Free Kashmir Fund" something which we see quite openly being done on streets of Pakistan. Such measures will go further in enhancing Indian perspective of forceful and decisive Pakistani steps to prevent terror acts within India.

 

[Hellfire]

AgNoStIc MuSliM


I prefer the analysis of the equally qualified Generals who actually have a stake in the national security of Pakistan.

Then perhaps you can appreciate why we are persistent in our contentions on the position of Pakistan in this crucial phase. To deny that India today has the maximum stake in Pakistani security and sanctity is something bordering on hallucination. We have the strongest interest in Pakistani security and hence there is an assurance that as long as Pakistani forces are visibly acting in transparent manner to check terror on their soil, there shall be no attack from East.

Notice that I haven't completely dismissed Petraeus's comments - since I do recognize the urgency of the Taliban threat and accept that it ranks over the one from India at the moment - and neither have Kiyani or Pasha.

Yes I did notice that in lot of posts of yours. But at the same time you are persistent on harping of Indian involvement in BLA and also threat from East limiting deployability, a view which is totally skewed right now.

Both of them have argued several times in the past year or so that the overriding threat is from the insurgency, and training in the PA has been adjusted to reflect that.

Yes, but they have refrained from taking the hard steps needed for their is immense sympathy in lower ranks of PA for the said groups.



The Mumbai attacks and the hostile reaction from India. So no - there is no 'waving at windmills' here. The threat to Pakistan from a neighbor that has acted several times in the past to attack and break Pakistan cannot be so flippantly dismissed

Whether you accept it or not, post Mumbai there was an increased level of preparedness no doubt on behalf of Indian forces, but that was based on the need to act in case a political decision was taken. This was an independent act and not under political directives of GoI.

In addition the strike corps hardly moved at all. An example is of the 22nd Infantry Division located in Meerut. Its troops were in extended relaxed mode and if there was any need to mobilise, would have taken minimum a week to move to their staging areas. And further two for stocks to be built up. While you may contend on advaced storages in the staging areas, yet the bulk of support weaponry is held by formations in locations and not in advanced areas for obvious reasons. All the movement of men and material would have taken sometime.

The whole hue and cry raised by Pakistan was purely because US et al had openly warned of imminent Indian strikes and had justified the same in case they materialised. The hilarity of situation was they would have been forced to side with India if it was so.

Your contention on US and UK et al not providing guarantees to Pakistan can be negated by the very fact that these two countries actively intervened just to ensure that Indian strike does not take place.

One thing should be clear in all scenarios. If, and that is if, the threshold of political tolerance for violence originating from across the border is crossed ever, irrespective of state/non-state actors, the first strike by India will be overwhelming and nuclear element can not be ruled out.

While India has publicly stated a policy of no first use of nuclear weapons, the statement is purely applicable in conventional warfare and taking a leaf out of US's book, have declared the right to respond with weapons of own choosing (read-nuclear) if the attack is unconventional in form.

This broad classification of unconventional will cover employment of chemical and biological agents in addition to proxy methods as extension.

While it is easy to celebrate "deterrence" on basis of Pakistani nuclear weapons, the fact is that it is a myth in case India decides to initiate a full strike under the conditions I have explained earlier. And howsoever you may contend that such a strike will be met with equally devastating strikes, the mere features of flight time and effect of EMP fallout on your command and control (not to mention the actual locations of the weapons) is sufficient to make hollow such claims as 8 minutes will not give sufficient time for PA to launch a "devastating strike"

 

[Hellfire]

"India has instead reoriented itself to enter the global community on the basis of its economy."

Absolutely.

Both India and Pakistan benefited from a certain cachet of corporate sponsorship, if you will, during the cold war. No longer and India intends on making a global living.

To that end, there is sooo much to lose and so little to gain by any war. Even a defensive war that found India in possession of Pakistani land would likely find it quickly returned by outside economically-driven market and governmental pressure.

It's not removed as an option, obviously. Possessing Pakistan simply entails no attraction to India. Not at the cost of access to global markets that can launch it into the stratosphere.

S-2

A correction here.

The fundamentals of economic isolation are now redundant on India. The Pokhran-II tests proved it when economic sanctions were imposed on India by US, yet the economy boomed in the said period.

I have given this as an isolated example. The more recent one can be the effect of economic woes on Indian economy. While China has been comparatively harder hit, India has not, for Indian economy is fundamentally a self consuming economy. The only major (and here its bordering nasty) effect is on textiles and few low end consumer products meant for Western Markets/consumption.

In addition, any new acquisition of land will only destabilise the demographic ratio in India, something that the polity is averse to irrespective of secular ideas.

Also any pressure (militarily in terms of strikes) at this juncture WILL lead to administrative and politcal collapse of Pakistan, a nightmarish thought at best.

Thanks