Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

Remember these two faces , These Two Very Old Men are behind the Epic failure of Pakistan Diplomacy About Those 8 F16s,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Even Army Chief Complained about these old guys and Foreign Office to PM, If they did there job We wont have this outcome , So A big Shame ..........
But My Question is , But My Question is Did they did it by purpose? And did NS's Govt wants misunderstandings (cold war) in between USA and PAK Armed Forces ?
What do you all Think,
Thank you all.
@Umair Nawaz @Windjammer @Quwa @MastanKhan

Hi,

With these two guys in office---you don't need enemies. Now they don't know when to shut up.

It is their egos that don't make them see the changes occuring in the U S against pakistan.

Just because the U S generals meet the pak generals with smiles and a firm handshake---it does not mean that the system in the U S is also responding in kind.

The U S general is meeting in a friendly manner because he needs all the help he can to " save his men / women " in afghanistan---the politician who is sitting 10000 miles away cares less about it and is only looking for re-election to save his seat.

So---even in the U S---the interests of the U S military and the politicians do not coincide all the time.

The U S politicians will always win and the american generals will take the thrashing by their politicians with a smile without breaking their stride.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

@cloud4000 your post

Can the failure of Pakistan's diplomacy placed only at the feet of two men? What about COAS Sharif's role in all this? He has visited the US twice, meeting secretaries of defense and state, Pentagon officials, military leaders, and Congressional leaders. There was all this talk of bonhomie between the General and US.

Answer to that , This post by MastanKhan.

Hi,

With these two guys in office---you don't need enemies. Now they don't know when to shut up.

It is their egos that don't make them see the changes occuring in the U S against pakistan.

Just because the U S generals meet the pak generals with smiles and a firm handshake---it does not mean that the system in the U S is also responding in kind.

The U S general is meeting in a friendly manner because he needs all the help he can to " save his men / women " in afghanistan---the politician who is sitting 10000 miles away cares less about it and is only looking for re-election to save his seat.

So---even in the U S---the interests of the U S military and the politicians do not coincide all the time.

The U S politicians will always win and the american generals will take the thrashing by their politicians with a smile without breaking their stride.

I hope it will help you .

 

[nomi007]

Pakistan Air Force F-16 ~The Sound of Freedom

 

[ZEYA]

i think pakistan should wait for HILLARY CLINTON as a president ,table can turn vis a vis

 

[Viper0011.]

i think pakistan should wait for HILLARY CLINTON as a president ,table can turn vis a vis

You are SADLY mistaken on this. Hillary and Bill, in their last trip to India for Bill's charity, received $ 80 MILLION worth of donations (just one example). Who do you think they'll support? India or Pakistan? Second, the Congress is Repulican controlled. And third, like MK has written many times, you guys need to start reading between the lines and go get other stuff if you've not learned from the 90's. The sentiment towards Pakistan, within the US establishment on each side, isn't that positive.

@MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please

Hi,

With these two guys in office---you don't need enemies. Now they don't know when to shut up.

It is their egos that don't make them see the changes occuring in the U S against pakistan.

Just because the U S generals meet the pak generals with smiles and a firm handshake---it does not mean that the system in the U S is also responding in kind.

The U S general is meeting in a friendly manner because he needs all the help he can to " save his men / women " in afghanistan---the politician who is sitting 10000 miles away cares less about it and is only looking for re-election to save his seat.

So---even in the U S---the interests of the U S military and the politicians do not coincide all the time.

The U S politicians will always win and the american generals will take the thrashing by their politicians with a smile without breaking their stride.

I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:

1) It doesn't matter if these two men are representing Pakistan or not. This situation has NO control from the Pakistani side. The control has always been in the US hands and will. Sorry!! Mushy, Zia and everyone else, got the "time being" relationship. But the US controls her interests and that's it, period. Doesn't matter which two, four or ten men are or are not involved from the Pakistani side.

2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.

3) In Pakistan, the civilians don't get to make policies so that ALWAYS goes against Pakistan. But Pakistani military doesn't want to lose that control so here is the result. Remember, I've ALWAYS said, you want a good working relationship with the Americans or with the British......NEVER let the Khaki's go and represent the country. ONLY suits and salesman and you'll get the results. End of the story!! The more military fatigues go in front of American leaders, the more annoyed they'd get and the results are coming in front of you guys, if you see the sentiment from the US towards Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are SADLY mistaken on this. Hillary and Bill, in their last trip to India for Bill's charity, received $ 80 MILLION worth of donations (just one example). Who do you think they'll support? India or Pakistan? Second, the Congress is Repulican controlled. And third, like MK has written many times, you guys need to start reading between the lines and go get other stuff if you've not learned from the 90's. The sentiment towards Pakistan, within the US establishment on each side, isn't that positive.

@MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please



I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:

1) It doesn't matter if these two men are representing Pakistan or not. This situation has NO control from the Pakistani side. The control has always been in the US hands and will. Sorry!! Mushy, Zia and everyone else, got the "time being" relationship. But the US controls her interests and that's it, period. Doesn't matter which two, four or ten men are or are not involved from the Pakistani side.

2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.

3) In Pakistan, the civilians don't get to make policies so that ALWAYS goes against Pakistan. But Pakistani military doesn't want to lose that control so here is the result. Remember, I've ALWAYS said, you want a good working relationship with the Americans or with the British......NEVER let the Khaki's go and represent the country. ONLY suits and salesman and you'll get the results. End of the story!! The more military fatigues go in front of American leaders, the more annoyed they'd get and the results are coming in front of you guys, if you see the sentiment from the US towards Pakistan.

Hi,

I refer you to the good old american saying " we will give you enough rope to hang yourself ".

Pakistan has proved this american saying to be true one more time.

The uniforms don't listen when it comes to america---I have tried many a times and ever time they have faltered and I have been proven right---their paths are always predictable----their failures always anticipated.

There is a problem with learning and understanding---and for that----they need to be smacked on the media channels---right up front and right in the face---.

They think that their sacrifices take care of their problems---the mantra that " we are not afraid to die " should absolve them of all their sins---and if they don't learn from their mistakes----big deal.

Just from today's news---they have learnt nothing from this F16 fiasco---.

@MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please



I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:


2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.

.

Hi,

Pakistan's military shuld have known that---Gen Kiyani was crying about it---he just had a meeting with his american counter part in Spain a day earlier---and the counter part was smashing pakistan's military the next day---and Gen Kiyani could not comprehend that.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

I refer you to the good old american saying " we will give you enough rope to hang yourself ".

Pakistan has proved this american saying to be true one more time.

The uniforms don't listen when it comes to america---I have tried many a times and ever time they have faltered and I have been proven right---their paths are always predictable----their failures always anticipated.

There is a problem with learning and understanding---and for that----they need to be smacked on the media channels---right up front and right in the face---.

They think that their sacrifices take care of their problems---the mantra that " we are not afraid to die " should absolve them of all their sins---and if they don't learn from their mistakes----big deal.

Just from today's news---they have learnt nothing from this F16 fiasco---.

Pakistan's military shuld have known that---Gen Kiyani was crying about it---he just had a meeting with his american counter part in Spain a day earlier---and the counter part was smashing pakistan's military the next day---and Gen Kiyani could not comprehend that.

The problem is that this is the situation with everyone in the West. Pakistani public thinks that the Americans, or the Swedes or the Germans or the Britts or the French deal with their military better. To be honest, they deal with professionalism as usually they need some general to do something for them. Out of that, they hate dealing with a general representing a nation. It DOESN'T work like that.

I don't want to sound hating, but on TV, I've seen it way too many times, you have a guy dressed up in military fatigues in the middle of a dozen US law makers on some issue. The sad part, the general in Military Uniform thinks the other side loves him. While the other side (democratically elected leaders, whether American, Brits or anyone else) are BARELY standing that guy for their needs. How long does that take to synch in? Its been 70 years?


The Civilian leaders in any Western or democratic Eastern country look at their generals with respect, but knowing that they are a level beneath the civilians. This is just the mentality. But I don't understand why does the Generals in Uniform don't get it???? It makes the entire country look weird. Indians beat everyone on this, their previous generation of PM's, didn't really speak English that well. But, they were civilians, in suits or in their whatever dress (remember Gandhi's pics). But, look, they've buttered the entire world to listen to whatever they have to say and the world does it for them. THAT is the power of the salesmanship, the suits, the non-military clothes and no prefix of "General" before your name. Unless you are meeting with another military general. How do I teach the Pakistani public the secret to success

I've spent years on here and there are times when I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. My time here doesn't pay me, doesn't benefit me, but I just want people on here to learn a thing or to, so they can spread the success "sauce recipe" if you will.

No generals or dictators on tv (specially in international events representing Pakistan with Western civilian leaders. ONLY Suits, Suits, and Suits!! And you can build a good working relationship with the US and others.

This RIGHT HERE is what I was referring to, I found this and edited my post to add this. Now how does Pakistan deal with a mini-NATO next door (India's size, capacity, etc, after the following takes place):

http://www.defencenews.in/article/U...-with-NATO-allies-and-boost-defence-ties-5089

 

[Thorough Pro]

Pakistan Air Force F-16 ~The Sound of Sanctions

 

[MastanKhan]

The problem is that this is the situation with everyone in the West. Pakistani public thinks that the Americans, or the Swedes or the Germans or the Britts or the French deal with their military better. To be honest, they deal with professionalism as usually they need some general to do something for them. Out of that, they hate dealing with a general representing a nation. It DOESN'T work like that.

I don't want to sound hating, but on TV, I've seen it way too many times, you have a guy dressed up in military fatigues in the middle of a dozen US law makers on some issue. The sad part, the general in Military Uniform thinks the other side loves him. While the other side (democratically elected leaders, whether American, Brits or anyone else) are BARELY standing that guy for their needs. How long does that take to synch in? Its been 7 years?


The Civilian leaders in any Western or democratic Eastern country look at their generals with respect, but knowing that they are a level beneath the civilians. This is just the mentality. But I don't understand why does the Generals in Uniform don't get it???? It makes the entire country look weird. Indians beat everyone on this, their previous generation of PM's, didn't really speak English that well. But, they were civilians, in suits or in their whatever dress (remember Gandhi's pics). But, look, they've buttered the entire world to listen to whatever they have to say and the world does it for them. THAT is the power of the salesmanship, the suits, the non-military clothes and no prefix of "General" before your name. Unless you are meeting with another military general. How do I teach the Pakistani public the secret to success

I've spent years on here and there are time I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. My time here doesn't pay me, doesn't benefit me, but I just want people on here to learn a thing or to, so they can spread the success "sauce recipe" if you will. No generals or dictators. ONLY Suits, Suits, and Suits!! And you can build a good working relationship with the US and others.

This RIGHT HERE is what I was referring to, I found this and edited my post to add this. Now how does Pakistan deal with a mini-NATO next door (India's size, capacity, etc, after the following takes place):

http://www.defencenews.in/article/U...-with-NATO-allies-and-boost-defence-ties-5089

Hi,

Well---you are not alone----. It is a part of their genetic makeup. The problem with the pak military is that it does not understand that it can have a dedicated ' suit ' as its spokesperson---.

Pak generals also think that they have protected the american civilians and the american civiliabs will appreciate their sacrifices---.

They don't understand that that news has not been allowed to trickle down---and never will be allowed to.

And on top of that---the american congress or senate---they are only interested in their next election win---period---. The U S soldiers are a cannon fodder---that is what they signed up for.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

Well---you are not alone----. It is a part of their genetic makeup. The problem with the pak military is that it does not understand that it can have a dedicated ' suit ' as its spokesperson---.

Pak generals also think that they have protected the american civilians and the american civiliabs will appreciate their sacrifices---.

They don't understand that that news has not been allowed to trickle down---and never will be allowed to.

And on top of that---the american congress or senate---they are only interested in their next election win---period---.

The U S soldiers are a cannon fodder---that is what they signed up for.

I disagree with the last line there that the US soldiers are cannon fodders. There are missions out there that they've fought that other military's won't even want to get in all across the globe to mainland China. But I'd rest at that. The US is the largest military power so it protects her soldiers very well from Sea, Air and Land. But that doesn't mean the soldiers are cannon fodders. At the end of the day, Pakistan's entire Army is trained on the US tactics, from war fighting to special operations!! There are hundreds of thousands of examples of patriot soldiers who've volunteered their lives on special missions. Its very easy to watch movies and make claims. Its VERY hard to have operational insight by looking from the outside. There are MILLIONS of American families where every kind wants to become a soldier, a Marine, or an Air-Man or a SEAL because of family heritage. You once told me you lived in Texas? That, right there is one of the hard core military State and patriotism can be found every ten feet away, proudly serving the US military.

So the entire world (the countries that align with the US), are trained by the US military from a doctrine's and tactics standpoint. So, if there wasn't any success behind it, why would everyone allow that and spend millions in training?

For decades, Pakistani air-force (albeit with older equipment) was always considered "better trained" because of the USAF training. I can't imagine the numbers they brought down from the Indian Air-force would've been possible if they were flying the Chinese Mig-19's with the Chinese tactics!! So the US military is JUST better prepared in all aspects. That's it. You can't blame our success based on our training, towards something else and insult the US soldiers as cannon fodders to be frank.

 

[MastanKhan]

I disagree with the last line there that the US soldiers are cannon fodders. There are missions out there that they've fought that other military's won't even want to get in all across the globe to mainland China. But I'd rest at that. The US is the largest military power so it protects her soldiers very well from Sea, Air and Land. But that doesn't mean the soldiers are cannon fodders. At the end of the day, Pakistan's entire Army is trained on the US tactics, from war fighting to special operations!! There are hundreds of thousands of examples of patriot soldiers who've volunteered their lives on special missions. Its very easy to watch movies and make claims. Its VERY hard to have operational insight by looking from the outside. There are MILLIONS of American families where every kind wants to become a soldier, a Marine, or an Air-Man or a SEAL because of family heritage. You once told me you lived in Texas? That, right there is one of the hard core military State and patriotism can be found every ten feet away, proudly serving the US military.

So the entire world (the countries that align with the US), are trained by the US military from a doctrine's and tactics standpoint. So, if there wasn't any success behind it, why would everyone allow that and spend millions in training?

For decades, Pakistani air-force (albeit with older equipment) was always considered "better trained" because of the USAF training. I can't imagine the numbers they brought down from the Indian Air-force would've been possible if they were flying the Chinese Mig-19's with the Chinese tactics!! So the US military is JUST better prepared in all aspects. That's it. You can't blame our success based on our training, towards something else and insult the US soldiers as cannon fodders to be frank.

Hi,

That is not an insult---that is the truth---. A congressman or senator will save his behind first then think of the soldiers---.. Ra Ra and flag waving is fine---but winning the next election comes first.

 

[iPhone]

The problem is that this is the situation with everyone in the West. Pakistani public thinks that the Americans, or the Swedes or the Germans or the Britts or the French deal with their military better. To be honest, they deal with professionalism as usually they need some general to do something for them. Out of that, they hate dealing with a general representing a nation. It DOESN'T work like that.

I don't want to sound hating, but on TV, I've seen it way too many times, you have a guy dressed up in military fatigues in the middle of a dozen US law makers on some issue. The sad part, the general in Military Uniform thinks the other side loves him. While the other side (democratically elected leaders, whether American, Brits or anyone else) are BARELY standing that guy for their needs. How long does that take to synch in? Its been 70 years?


The Civilian leaders in any Western or democratic Eastern country look at their generals with respect, but knowing that they are a level beneath the civilians. This is just the mentality. But I don't understand why does the Generals in Uniform don't get it???? It makes the entire country look weird. Indians beat everyone on this, their previous generation of PM's, didn't really speak English that well. But, they were civilians, in suits or in their whatever dress (remember Gandhi's pics). But, look, they've buttered the entire world to listen to whatever they have to say and the world does it for them. THAT is the power of the salesmanship, the suits, the non-military clothes and no prefix of "General" before your name. Unless you are meeting with another military general. How do I teach the Pakistani public the secret to success

I've spent years on here and there are times when I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. My time here doesn't pay me, doesn't benefit me, but I just want people on here to learn a thing or to, so they can spread the success "sauce recipe" if you will.

No generals or dictators on tv (specially in international events representing Pakistan with Western civilian leaders. ONLY Suits, Suits, and Suits!! And you can build a good working relationship with the US and others.

This RIGHT HERE is what I was referring to, I found this and edited my post to add this. Now how does Pakistan deal with a mini-NATO next door (India's size, capacity, etc, after the following takes place):

http://www.defencenews.in/article/U...-with-NATO-allies-and-boost-defence-ties-5089

Yeah, but you're preaching to the choir here, sir. For the most part everyone here would be in agreement that we need to give the reigns of the government control to the civilians so, they can carry the Pakistani message across the world.

We know that in the west uniform personnel are a level beneath the civilian in charge. But how to make the boots in Pakistan understand that? That stop interfering in the politics of the country. Who can carry the message to the higher ups of the military?

But I also wanna mention that to a some extent the politicians in Pakistan are to blame also for their looking to the military for all their political woes. When they do that the military general becomes more arrogant and exercise more power over the civilians.

 

[volatile]

I think discussion is heading for Pak Army as a separate nation or group of people different from remaining Pakistan .Problem with Pakistan is too much politics inside every organization weather you guys admit or not.Regarding Fatimi and Sartaj the Ex Millitary men in the same or similar positions have there share of blunders as well .So what does it teach us .Are we employing right people for the job ?,weather you like it or not Hussain Haqani the traitor was the same guy who was able to lobbied for F16 as well as FMF /Kerry Luger Bill .So what it teach us ,you need right people to deal specialist jobs ,India simply hired him this time to stop that deal .Similarly there are couple of guys who are Ex Military men they are currently in serious positions but their roles are dubious .e.g What about newly joined NSA for Pak Was he able to deliver but wait who will judge his performance.A commando in uniform a Mullah in Uniform a liberal in Uniform we have done it all we have suffered all ,(East Pak ,CENTO,CETO ,KARGIL.AFGHAN WAR) you name it and we have it but wait !!!!!! . These are facts our hate towards people shouldn't be based on Millitary /Non Military but instead Performance. I forget Kayani Sb as well whose team at time even came on TV to bash his policy

 

[Beethoven]

Just saw on Samaa tv that Pakistan plans to upgrade its F-16's in Turkey.The total cost of this upgrade is put at 75 million dollars.What sort of upgrades are we talking about???? And are these -16's the ones that we got from Jordan?????

 

[Dazzler]

Just saw on Samaa tv that Pakistan plans to upgrade its F-16's in Turkey.The total cost of this upgrade is put at 75 million dollars.What sort of upgrades are we talking about???? And are these -16's the ones that we got from Jordan?????

MLU tap 3 for ex Jordanian ones.