Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Viper0011.]

Is it close to 5 years now and the jf17 is barely scraping the ground strike capabilities---its full ground strike capabilities will be out in another 3---5 years---now let alone the bvr----. You have to write the game plan---you have to write the 'playbook'---operational manual---.

As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted.

9/11 was the moment----till 2005---. PAF put too much emphasis on the joint venture of jf17 and fc20----putting up chicken hawks to fight the eagles---. It does not work when the eagles out number you as well.

I agree with your last part. The J-11's and to bring the enemy to the negotiation table. The rest, I don't agree with. The JFT's taking too long not because of the 'lengthy time' it takes to operationalize the equipment. It is because the program was stopped and started many times due to financials, engine issues with the Russians, issues in setting up manufacturing in Pakistan, etc, etc. The demand and supply and then integration wasn't synching up and rightfully so. Everything was happening for the first time and the engines are still a dependency on Russia!

Also, with the IMF knocking on your door and international community trying to declare Pakistan as a 'rogue state', add a dictator running the country into the equation and it becomes even more darker. I can't imagine how you can really write a 'play book' and call the 'plays'... In this scenario, you are too busy surviving. Plus, the west wasn't happy with Pakistan so no one would offer advance weapons even after Pakistan helping NATO. Last and one of the most critical ones...$$...combine all the previous items I listed and you can see what was going on. Defense articles from the West isn't like buying chocolates. It's a MUCH more difficult process, especially if a country with the reputation of Pakistan is requesting it. Not trying to bash Pakistan, just stating the reality unfortunately.

 

[raazh]

As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted---. There should have been programs active in the air force which would have looked into fast trak purchases in case the u s would lift the sanctions in the 90's----mean to say---be ready for the moment.

To procure any weapon system is not a one step, one window operation. And even if PAF is put on a standby notice of sanction free procurement; still the OEM is not waiting for your PO with the stock ready for delivery. There are multiple levels of approvals needed by every OEM from their own countries for export of Strategic weapons which take a lot of time. Not to mention how will you support a system after that window of opportunity is closed ?? Where will you get the spares etc etc ?? We are lucky that we had F16's and Mirages; two of the most widely used and operated systems in the world, to maintain in the 90's.

And by the way PAF officials did and do evaluate different crafts from time to time which are able to meet our requirements but unfortunately our economy or relations do not allow us to exercise those idealistic solutions. And yes, if you give unlimited time and money to any TOM, DICK and HARRY he can also get you squadrons of F22, F35 or F15's. Its not that simple for us now, is it??

 

[GURU DUTT]

To procure any weapon system is not a one step, one window operation. And even if PAF is put on a standby notice of sanction free procurement; still the OEM is not waiting for your PO with the stock ready for delivery. There are multiple levels of approvals needed by every OEM from their own countries for export of Strategic weapons which take a lot of time. Not to mention how will you support a system after that window of opportunity is closed ?? Where will you get the spares etc etc ?? We are lucky that we had F16's and Mirages; two of the most widely used and operated systems in the world, to maintain in the 90's.

And by the way PAF officials did and do evaluate different crafts from time to time which are able to meet our requirements but unfortunately our economy or relations do not allow us to exercise those idealistic solutions. And yes, if you give unlimited time and money to any TOM, DICK and HARRY he can also get you squadrons of F22, F35 or F15's. Its not that simple for us now, is it??

you are right sir but whos responsible for this situtation of pakistan ?

as mastan saheb said in some other thread about missing the boat il say pakistan missed it not once but multiple times had you played your cards right in the end of soviet war and reigned in your strategick assets and shown restrain while doing kargil and sponsring mujahideens in kashmir and been loyal friend to USA and used your levrage to bring a speedi end to al queda and and worked on promoting peace and trade in afghanistan and trade with central asia from as earli as say 2002 pakistan would right
now be enjoying full supoprt even better than say israel and your economy would be more powerfull than India and pakistan comined but you had the ummah and teach india a lesson for 1971 which brought you here and unfortunateli now there is no hope of any F16 even if USA wants it wont give you any latest tech as its industry wont be happy giving there trade secrets to china....hope u get the point sir

 

[araz]

THAT is the problem right there. Do you really think that militarily stronger India will wait and sit on their as* for Pakistan's economy to get kicked off and for it to become much stronger all the way till 2020 - 25? Look around you and see what's happening. The Indians have realized that they missed 2008. If they let the current democratically elected gov't 5 years, Pakistan will become a different animal and much more stronger to deal with both militarily and economically. Thus, the current situation as it is easy to deal with Pakistan vs. when it becomes a bigger economical and military power. So my man, time is going against you guys. Introduce bigger and better platforms and that may not be the best option. But it'll definitely keep the enemy at bay. It created 'equally focked' scenario and no one wants to be equally f'd!

Aurangzeb.
I never intended for pakistan to sit on its meagre behind and do nothing. If you think India is going to get us NOW, then we are doomed irrespective of how you look at it. Even if we signed a contract today I need not convey to you the latency between completion of negotiations, delivery of palnes getting the manpower sorted for it and learning the inns and outs of the new plane develop a strategy of fighting with it . Please also understand thatthe basic characteristics of the J11/16 will be well known to our adversary as they have had MKIs for yonks. I had suggested that we buy more F16s and get some more for MLU(110-120 in all,, current and new) AND THEN bide our time. I dont need to tell you the advantage of doing that form the economic and training and integration POV. Even if we get everything up and running by 2016 this would be a much better integrated system than going for a new platform.
Araz

 

[rockstarIN]

People who are advocating PAF to go for J-11.

Will it be the same situation like IAF getting 10-16 F-16s against PAF which have nearly 100+ with more than 2 decades of flying experience?

 

[SQ8]

People who are advocating PAF to go for J-11.

Will it be the same situation like IAF getting 10-16 F-16s against PAF which have nearly 100+ with more than 2 decades of flying experience?

Not exactly, After all. Each force has their own ideas of employment and develops slightly different tactics based on their understanding the capabilities of the system.
Case in point, IAF's usage of the Jaguar may be quite different or employ different attack tactics as compared to how the RAF fielded their aircraft.
Otherwise the Greeks and Turks would not be going at it against each other.

 

[rockstarIN]

Not exactly, After all. Each force has their own ideas of employment and develops slightly different tactics based on their understanding the capabilities of the system.
Case in point, IAF's usage of the Jaguar may be quite different or employ different attack tactics as compared to how the RAF fielded their aircraft.
Otherwise the Greeks and Turks would not be going at it against each other.

Does it make sense of adding a new platform in low numbers, which is known to the enemy very well at the cost of an existing experienced battle proved system. It does make sense if PAF go for 50+ jets.

 

[SQ8]

Does it make sense of adding a new platform in low numbers, which is known to the enemy very well at the cost of an existing experienced battle proved system. It does make sense if PAF go for 50+ jets.

Low numbers are pointless, logistical headaches will kill it. Even though the PAF's initial induction of mirages was a token number as such.

 

[MastanKhan]

To procure any weapon system is not a one step, one window operation. And even if PAF is put on a standby notice of sanction free procurement; still the OEM is not waiting for your PO with the stock ready for delivery. There are multiple levels of approvals needed by every OEM from their own countries for export of Strategic weapons which take a lot of time. Not to mention how will you support a system after that window of opportunity is closed ?? Where will you get the spares etc etc ?? We are lucky that we had F16's and Mirages; two of the most widely used and operated systems in the world, to maintain in the 90's.

And by the way PAF officials did and do evaluate different crafts from time to time which are able to meet our requirements but unfortunately our economy or relations do not allow us to exercise those idealistic solutions. And yes, if you give unlimited time and money to any TOM, DICK and HARRY he can also get you squadrons of F22, F35 or F15's. Its not that simple for us now, is it??

Sir,

You are way behind in this discussion----. You getting me riled up----. You are talking without knowing----.

PAF did not place an order to purchase---not due to the shortage of funds in first half of 2000----because it believed that there would be peace with india----and it would be a wastage to buy any high tech aircraft.

From 9/11 till 2005 when the earthquake hit pakistan---there was no shortage of funds for paf----.

So---in that time they were out stealing technology from Grippen and Rafale for their JF17.

What sanction free procurements are you talking about---what fear of sanctions---should have gone and killed OBL and fixed you mental approach towards the U S----. The sanctions are due to mental issues that pakistanis have towards the u s----. They don't know how to deal with the u s----and they start crying about the games that the world powers play and sanctions----.

PAF was in a desperate shape on 9/11. IN AN ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC SHAPE---and still it was reluctant to procure any aircraft on fastrak----even though every nation was willing to----.It had 4 1/2 years to place an order----.

Kid I am close to my 60's----tell me something different about procurement.


Orangzeb,

Sir---it is still an 8 to 10 years minimum---has'nt changed---and won't be changing for awhile----. Young kids thinks that if they WILL IT STRONG ENOUGH---it happens. As much as the things change---so much they stay the same.

Play book was meant to be writing of the operational manual and fight / flight procedures for the new aircraft.

You guys can argue and prove whatever you may want to----but there is no short cut to the time.

 

[Viper0011.]

People who are advocating PAF to go for J-11.

Will it be the same situation like IAF getting 10-16 F-16s against PAF which have nearly 100+ with more than 2 decades of flying experience?

Your post makes no sense. Any jet being acquiring in 10 makes no sense. But Pakistan acquiring J-11 in about 4-6 squadrons will have upfront adaptation challenges and costs BUT it'll be a massive punch from all angles, including interception, air defense, ground attack, etc. 60 J-11's or heavy fighters equal to about 120 -16's firepower. BUT, if Pakistan is acquiring 100 -16's MLU'd or B-52, then I'd skip 60 J-11's in a heart beat. But if its like 20 -16's, then I'd go get a higher number of J-11's on even soft loans

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

9/11---pakistan barely had any aircraft that could 'fly' at that time. French were desperate to sell their rafale---otherwise the production line was coming to an end----. They tried their best to sell the M2K and then the rafale to pak---the french tried to sell the airbus to the pak as well---but PIA deceived france and europe over the purchase of airbus and went for boeing---on a fake promise of direct flight to the u s from pak.

Well direct flight to the u s would have happened if pak had kept their end of the promise---to crush the terrorists---but pakistan was popping out terrorists one after the other just like Rush Limbaugh was popping in Ibuprofens.

Pakistan gave everything away to the u s---but never got anything substantial back on a fastrak after 9/11---. The u s was willing to give---it just needed to be coaxed and manipulated to do that.

The problem lay with the pakistani mindset----half of them wanted to make another vietnam for the u s---the other half were clueless what national interests were---and all of them were living the dream of islamic brotherhood----giving refuge to terrorists and murderers from foreign countries. And then people want to talk about sanctions---.

RAAZH---pakistan was in a unique position to overcome any and all multiple approvals once it signed up with the u s over WOT.

Collin Powell is on record in making a statement---paks can't make up their minds as to what they want---they ask for something one day---we get an approval from congress---they then change their minds and ask for something else---.

No american president has made time for any head of state from a 3rd world or 2nd world country on a sunday as George Bush did for Musharraf----.

These screw ups are of pakistans and pakistanis own making.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

Hi,

9/11---pakistan barely had any aircraft that could 'fly' at that time. French were desperate to sell their rafale---otherwise the production line was coming to an end----. They tried their best to sell the M2K and then the rafale to pak---the french tried to sell the airbus to the pak as well---but PIA deceived france and europe over the purchase of airbus and went for boeing---on a fake promise of direct flight to the u s from pak.

Well direct flight to the u s would have happened if pak had kept their end of the promise---to crush the terrorists---but pakistan was popping out terrorists one after the other just like Rush Limbaugh was popping in Ibuprofens.

Pakistan gave everything away to the u s---but never got anything substantial back on a fastrak after 9/11---. The u s was willing to give---it just needed to be coaxed and manipulated to do that.

The problem lay with the pakistani mindset----half of them wanted to make another vietnam for the u s---the other half were clueless what national interests were---and all of them were living the dream of islamic brotherhood----giving refuge to terrorists and murderers from foreign countries. And then people want to talk about sanctions---.

RAAZH---pakistan was in a unique position to overcome any and all multiple approvals once it signed up with the u s over WOT.

Collin Powell is on record in making a statement---paks can't make up their minds as to what they want---they ask for something one day---we get an approval from congress---they then change their minds and ask for something else---.

No american president has made time for any head of state from a 3rd world or 2nd world country on a sunday as George Bush did for Musharraf----.

These screw ups are of pakistans and pakistanis own making.

sir, there must be something like a contengensy plan as a backup in case of PakisTan air force not getting the required numbers of F-16s ... ?? Logically there has to be one ! right ?

 

[raazh]

RAAZH---pakistan was in a unique position to overcome any and all multiple approvals once it signed up with the u s over WOT.

These screw ups are of pakistans and pakistanis own making.

I dont know what Entertainment channel you watch in CA but Pakistan was never in a comanding position to milk West for advance Aircrafts. Yes we have many issues and not in an ideal situation but talking specifically about the PAF, rest assured there was never such a scenario where we could have bought a Rafale or any other plane in a jiffy. There are rules, regulations and SOP's to be followed in every procurement. And they come after the Political and strategic relations.

I know your mashAllah above 50; my best wishes and respects. However you might want to rethink on your views. Isnt there a tid bit of Chance that maybe you dont know everything. Maybe the guy in the driving seat knows better than one sitting 1000's ok Km away ?? I am sure they know how to Google the best plane in the world see who makes it and buy when they have money in pocket and permission from Govt.

 

[Side-Winder]

SELF DELETE

 

[ziaulislam]

if pakistan play their political cards right they should be able to get MLUs f-16s at a good price, especially once USAF starts retiring them in bulk around 2017-18
i think under current situation F-16s is the only option that makes any sence
J-10s would be great but for it to be effective the number should be above 50 even so , it would take nearly a 5-8 to get it fully operational