Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Chak Bamu]

I hope you understand what "Allah Malik Hai" really means in this context?

On Topic:
I am sure there is more US hardware (F-16) for us in future. US would not wish to lose influence and relevance as far as Pakistan is concerned. They have seen enough erosion as it is and they would not want us completely in the Chinese camp. Dropping US totally as a supplier would not be sensible policy for us, just as letting us drift totally into Chinese sphere of influence would not be a sensible policy for US. Unless of course there are some firm plans that discount Pakistan as a viable state; and in that case all bets are off.

 

[araz]

I wouldn't emphaise the good relations so much. It's not like the F-16 is our only option, JF-17 may be slightly underpowered but it more than makes up for that by being strings free so we can put any weapon that we need. Going further more and more Chinese platforms are maturing and we will be inducting more of them.
What good would be any aircrafts if we have to compromise on our sovereignty so that we stay in the good books of uncle Sam. F-16 is not an end in itself it's a tool towards an end i-e Pakistani pride and freedom.

Please read my detailed posts on the subject of this"love of PAFfor US machines". It will surely answer your question. This topic has been visited to death and we need to be practical rather than emotional especially since our pockets are also empty. To date there ia nothing that will gove us the parity that we so wish for without breaking the bank other than the F16s. You can always ride the aman ki asha and bend down to be on the receivijg end or hold on to your integrity and deal for peace from a position of parity or neAr parity.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Please read my detailed posts on the subject of this"love of PAFfor US machines". It will surely answer your question. This topic has been visited to death and we need to be practical rather than emotional especially since our pockets are also empty. To date there ia nothing that will gove us the parity that we so wish for without breaking the bank other than the F16s. You can always ride the aman ki asha and bend down to be on the receivijg end or hold on to your integrity and deal for peace from a position of parity or neAr parity.

Parity or near parity in conventional forces is going to be nearly impossible for the foreseeable future Sir. What will prevent us from merely bending our knees rather than being a complete pushover will be our nuclear weapons. We better take care of them.

 

[araz]

Parity or near parity in conventional forces is going to be nearly impossible for the foreseeable future Sir. What will prevent us from merely bending our knees rather than being a complete pushover will be our nuclear weapons. We better take care of them.

in understand parity in the context of deterrance rather than sheer numbers. A force comprising of 250-300 BVR laden 4th genration fighters flown by dedicated and trained professionals will be a force to reckon with for any AF. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING US vs CHINESE NEW PLATFORM IN THIS CONTEXT NEEDS TO BE ANALYZED BY YOU GUYS VEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM COMING FROM. We must understand that the ground reAlities are not known to anyone of us. The US may or mAy not play ball with us. All I am statkng is under ideaL situation which as we well know hardly wver exists for Pakistan.
The situation of your nukes is again another story. If you are thinking about using them then you are entering a MAD scenario which is another exteeme.However you will be in a difficult situation if the enemy decides to call your bluff one of these days. Do we actually have the balls to push the buttons and ensure the death of millions of people in the subsequent cascade. I any case you have then lost everything .
Araz

 

[Argus Panoptes]

in understand parity in the context of deterrance rather than sheer numbers. A force comprising of 250-300 BVR laden 4th genration fighters flown by dedicated and trained professionals will be a force to reckon with for any AF. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING US vs CHINESE NEW PLATFORM IN THIS CONTEXT NEEDS TO BE ANALYZED BY YOU GUYS VEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM COMING FROM. We must understand that the ground reAlities are not known to anyone of us. The US may or mAy not play ball with us. All I am statkng is under ideaL situation which as we well know hardly wver exists for Pakistan.
The situation of your nukes is again another story. If you are thinking about using them then you are entering a MAD scenario which is another exteeme.However you will be in a difficult situation if the enemy decides to call your bluff one of these days. Do we actually have the balls to push the buttons and ensure the death of millions of people in the subsequent cascade. I any case you have then lost everything .
Araz

Yes Sir, I appreciate what you are saying. The bottom line remains that desperation is likely to set in as we slowly but surely run out of viable options. Which we are. At a rapid rate.

 

[araz]

Yes Sir, I appreciate what you are saying. The bottom line remains that desperation is likely to set in as we slowly but surely run out of viable options. Which we are. At a rapid rate.

My friend I am ever hopeful of the mercy and grace of AllahSWT. Where a door closes he will open a new one. We are in this sorry state because of our poor leadership and morbid lack of self discipline. Our problems are difficult but not insurmountable. Things aee getting tough for our neighbours a well. The MMRCA accord is delayed and unlikely to be signed this yr or even next.We desperately need to solve the problems afflicting our economy and restore peace. If we can do these 2 things we will start seeing some improvements. Meanwhile new opportunities will arise. I like you dont trusu the Us but this us a question of a logical solution to a difficult problem with many permutations which we dont hve answers to.
Araz

 

[Viper0011.]

I think the situation heee is fluid and keeps changing in light of what our neighbour does with theifMMRCA and its final specs. It is not ideal to react but wedont have the resources to have the luxury of going proactive.
Araz

What do you do in the "fluid situation" scenario? You get the top tier product and let it be. Because no matter how fluid the situation be, you can't go wrong with a top tier machine. I've said it a million times. Now is the time to introduce a few squads of J11 with J-16's avionics as they are more advanced. Now matter how fluid or changing the situation may be, you can't go wrong with it. FC-20 should be scraped. It's old news

 

[Nishan_101]

We should definitely go for 14 F-16s and MLU them, But i am not so sure about purchasing new F-16s. If PAF does get 14 older ones, then we can have 4 full squadrons of F-16s.

So what you and other seniro member thinks?

That why did PAF got there 28 F-16s from US in 2002 when negotiating and about 30-50 F-16s Block-52 along with weapons deal.

Is it just because of Pakistan weak Govt. and some other problems.???

 

[MastanKhan]

I am going to answer the above bullets in order:

1) 8-10 years was the case when the technology wasn't so advanced and you'd have to fly the aircraft physically to learn its characteristics. Plus if you had a few hundred pilots in the line for training on a new platform, the pilot to the twin seater trainer would be a lot as the trainer would be much less in numbers. So it took that long. Now, you have simulators that give you about 80-85% real flying experience. So you are trained MUCH faster. So take about 3 years average for a batch of pilots to train on all flight envelop, both through the simulator and the physical jet flying. In PAF's case, I'd go to 4-5 years max. Changes being made to the plane are a whole different issue though.

2) JFT will only have two advanced blocks AFAIK. So, its maturity will end by 2018 I think as it's supposed to be forming a lower tier (which is currently being called Mid Tier due to the lack of another jet that would be higher end like FC-20).

3) What Boat Ride are you referring to? Please explain. PAF definitely has some catching up to do due to sanctions during the 90's. But it is doing good to catch up and I think if the funds were available, it would've caught up for the most part. I'd give it 3-5 more years if the new gov't does what its supposed to do to kick start the economy. But do explain what Boat Ride please. I'm curious to know.

4) I agree with the number. The PAF as a defensive arm, needs about 400 3.5 - 4th gen jets with BVR's at the least.

Hi,

I appreciate your answer---but here is the thing---the more the things change---the more they stay the same. A different kind of aircraft than the F16---with newer technology---it will be the same---8----10 years. You have to learn to know the aircraft---you have to learn what it can do for you and you have to learn how you can manipulate it and get the best out of it---a new platform---if it is---.

Is it close to 5 years now and the jf17 is barely scraping the ground strike capabilities---its full ground strike capabilities will be out in another 3---5 years---now let alone the bvr----. You have to write the game plan---you have to write the 'playbook'---operational manual---.

As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted---. There should have been programs active in the air force which would have looked into fast trak purchases in case the u s would lift the sanctions in the 90's----mean to say---be ready for the moment.

9/11 was the moment----till 2005---. PAF put too much emphasis on the joint venture of jf17 and fc20----putting up chicken hawks to fight the eagles---. It does not work when the eagles out number you as well.

You have to fight the enemy with what the enemy fears the most---not with what you think they may fear---. The enemy is all wrapped up in su30----so what is to counter it----2 to 3 sqdrn's of J11's---minimal.

The purpose of any major weapons system is not to win the war---but---rather bring the enemy to the peace table---. If your weapons syetms cannot do those things---then the weapons system is handicapped.

 

[araz]

What do you do in the "fluid situation" scenario? You get the top tier product and let it be. Because no matter how fluid the situation be, you can't go wrong with a top tier machine. I've said it a million times. Now is the time to introduce a few squads of J11 with J-16's avionics as they are more advanced. Now matter how fluid or changing the situation may be, you can't go wrong with it. FC-20 should be scraped. It's old news

Iagree with you on the J10 but still feel that we need to bide our time with more F16s. Post 2020-25, we may be able to go for the chinese 5th gen. fighter which would be a better choice if we are going down the dual engine fghter route. The problem is that the chinese products are still not top notch and need time to mature. Buying J16 leaves you with the same disadvantage that J10 does. So although I see the logic behind it I have to disagree on grounds of lack of maturity of the equipment. It may become Plan B if PlanA does not work but my thinking is that this is the way the PAF buffs would suggest we go on pure financial and other considerations. From the US perspective they would not hesitate to sell us tech they have sold before.
Araz

 

[shanixee]

Hi,

I appreciate your answer---but here is the thing---the more the things change---the more they stay the same. A different kind of aircraft than the F16---with newer technology---it will be the same---8----10 years. You have to learn to know the aircraft---you have to learn what it can do for you and you have to learn how you can manipulate it and get the best out of it---a new platform---if it is---.

Is it close to 5 years now and the jf17 is barely scraping the ground strike capabilities---its full ground strike capabilities will be out in another 3---5 years---now let alone the bvr----. You have to write the game plan---you have to write the 'playbook'---operational manual---.

As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted---. There should have been programs active in the air force which would have looked into fast trak purchases in case the u s would lift the sanctions in the 90's----mean to say---be ready for the moment.

9/11 was the moment----till 2005---. PAF put too much emphasis on the joint venture of jf17 and fc20----putting up chicken hawks to fight the eagles---. It does not work when the eagles out number you as well.

You have to fight the enemy with what the enemy fears the most---not with what you think they may fear---. The enemy is all wrapped up in su30----so what is to counter it----2 to 3 sqdrn's of J11's---minimal.

The purpose of any major weapons system is not to win the war---but---rather bring the enemy to the peace table---. If your weapons syetms cannot do those things---then the weapons system is handicapped.

I agree most of the stuff not fully because your giving very hardline view about capabilities...it gives an impression of dooms day scenario..

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

how much a single f 16 block 52 costs only the aircraft not including spares and weapons

 

[SQ8]

how much a single f 16 block 52 costs only the aircraft not including spares and weapons

I would suggest the search function on the top right as it has been posted before.
However you can ascertain a bit from here using a bit of basic mathematics and common sense.
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s

 

[nangyale]

Please read my detailed posts on the subject of this"love of PAFfor US machines". It will surely answer your question. This topic has been visited to death and we need to be practical rather than emotional especially since our pockets are also empty. To date there ia nothing that will gove us the parity that we so wish for without breaking the bank other than the F16s. You can always ride the aman ki asha and bend down to be on the receivijg end or hold on to your integrity and deal for peace from a position of parity or neAr parity.

My post was in response to 6777 where the emphasis was for staying in the goods book of uncle Sam so that we can have more freedom with the 16s. Now I have been through your previous posts and I understand your and MastanKhan's point that it takes ages to get to grips with such a complicated system as a modern jet fighter and that Pakistani pilots love the 16s.
But there is time and place for everything, when the F16s were first introduced America was completely on the side of Pakistan and the resistance against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan they were more than happy to see their aircrafts bring down Soviet jets and were willing to give all assistance to Pakistan in this regard, granted at first it required some convincing but when they got on board they were on board for the full ride.
Now that time is long gone and today there is a big gulf between the aspirations of Pakistani people and the policies of USA (I didn't say Pakistani government on purpose as sometimes that is in conflict with the mood of the nation). What that means is that either Pakistan go against what its people want and where its long term interests lies or sooner or latter the sanctions will return. and when they do those F-16 will become a lot more difficult to operate and maintain.
So I am not here talking about your "aman ki asha" but what is in the interest of Pakistan not just tomorrow but 5 or 10 years down the line as well.

 

[Viper0011.]

I agree with you on the J10 but still feel that we need to bide our time with more F16s. Post 2020-25, we may be able to go for the chinese 5th gen. Araz

THAT is the problem right there. Do you really think that militarily stronger India will wait and sit on their as* for Pakistan's economy to get kicked off and for it to become much stronger all the way till 2020 - 25? Look around you and see what's happening. The Indians have realized that they missed 2008. If they let the current democratically elected gov't 5 years, Pakistan will become a different animal and much more stronger to deal with both militarily and economically. Thus, the current situation as it is easy to deal with Pakistan vs. when it becomes a bigger economical and military power. So my man, time is going against you guys. Introduce bigger and better platforms and that may not be the best option. But it'll definitely keep the enemy at bay. It created 'equally focked' scenario and no one wants to be equally f'd!